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Can we land Romeo?

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Fredrica James said:
What was his take on being a part of a staff and program that had a Final Four nullified? I realize he (and Miller) have great respect and affection for Calipari. Has he ever been anything other than effusive in his praise for him?
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According to Eddie, the staff there tried to do everything they could to make guys aware of the dangers of agents.

Camby had taken jewelry, but according to the story I heard he wasn't aware the guy he got it from was an agent (or was wanting to be his agent). And Camby (supposedly) didn't take any money until after the season was over. Eddie told me he didn't see Camby living any different, so to him he had no idea Camby had gotten anything.

Generally, I don't think any coach - Calipari, Coach K, Self, (insert coach here) - can know 100% what their players are/ are not getting. Think about when you were a kid: Did your parents know everything you did? Hell no - there was some stuff you wouldn't begin to tell them about; you know crap would hit the fan.

Similarly, coaches are going to try to get every competitive advantage they can. Coach K has his involvement with the USA program. Calipari's 30 for 30 - at least inadvertently - was great exposure for UK. And in HS Eddie took a lot of flak for running the academy AND coaching PT. Everyone is always looking for an edge.

Academics, though, you realize a kid is either prepared or not. And then it becomes a matter of how you operate. Calipari will take kids with known academic issues and extremely shade circumstances involved in getting them eligible (see Rose & Bledsoe). Was he directly involved? Can't prove anything, but it's hard for me to believe he knew nothing.
 
TD.... Cal didn't know of Camby's dealings with an agent. Camby took full responsibility for it and even later paid $ back out of his own pocket to atone for his actions with the university. Cal didn't have any knowledge that Rose may have cheated on his ACT. (I suppose you think he was sitting there next to him during the test, helping him with the answers?) With the NCAA clearing Rose TWICE, what else would Cal need to hear? Same thing with Bledsoe... he was deemed eligible by the people that make that determination....the NCAA.

The issue you have is that you simply don't like the guy....and that's ok, I get it....I wouldn't expect IU fans to like Cal, but you're letting that dislike cloud your judgment. Over the entire Cal era at UK, there's been exactly ONE player that was an academic problem.... Daniel Orton. He blew off going to class his entire 2nd semester and it hurt the APR as a result. One player.....in eight years. Cal and Orton do not have much of a relationship since. I don't know if Orton has ever come back to Lexington or participated in the camps, Alumni events or other group events that Cal's former players go to almost every year since they left.
 
I tend to agree with you. IMO there is a difference btween the Camby and Rose situations.

Any coach could have a player make a poor decision on his own despite establishing guidelines and ensuring players understand the rules and consequences.

It is not as simple for a player to manufacture academic results on their own. Cal has far more culpability in this case IMO. Personally, I don't think Cal is "cheating" right now. He rides the ragged edge, but for me...I would have no interest in any coach turning my university program into what K has become. No amount of wins are worth that cost.
 
Courtsensetwo said:
I tend to agree with you. IMO there is a difference btween the Camby and Rose situations.

Any coach could have a player make a poor decision on his own despite establishing guidelines and ensuring players understand the rules and consequences.

It is not as simple for a player to manufacture academic results on their own. Cal has far more culpability in this case IMO. Personally, I don't think Cal is "cheating" right now. He rides the ragged edge, but for me...I would have no interest in any coach turning my university program into what K has become. No amount of wins are worth that cost.
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Hey JC . . . . if you don't understand this, you're beyond help.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
Hey JC . . . . if you don't understand this, you're beyond help.
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If you guys aren't willing to adapt to today's college basketball landscape, that's not my problem, it's yours. The top talent in the sport are not 3-4 year players that get 4.0's and their degree. That is 'old school' nowadays.

Archie....I don't have much of a read on him yet, but what are you going to do/how are you going to feel if he goes the route of his brother @AZ? They are one of the programs that routinely recruit OAD's.... who's to say that Archie won't do that at IU?
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
According to Eddie, the staff there tried to do everything they could to make guys aware of the dangers of agents.

Camby had taken jewelry, but according to the story I heard he wasn't aware the guy he got it from was an agent (or was wanting to be his agent). And Camby (supposedly) didn't take any money until after the season was over. Eddie told me he didn't see Camby living any different, so to him he had no idea Camby had gotten anything.

Generally, I don't think any coach - Calipari, Coach K, Self, (insert coach here) - can know 100% what their players are/ are not getting. Think about when you were a kid: Did your parents know everything you did? Hell no - there was some stuff you wouldn't begin to tell them about; you know crap would hit the fan.

Similarly, coaches are going to try to get every competitive advantage they can. Coach K has his involvement with the USA program. Calipari's 30 for 30 - at least inadvertently - was great exposure for UK. And in HS Eddie took a lot of flak for running the academy AND coaching PT. Everyone is always looking for an edge.

Academics, though, you realize a kid is either prepared or not. And then it becomes a matter of how you operate. Calipari will take kids with known academic issues and extremely shade circumstances involved in getting them eligible (see Rose & Bledsoe). Was he directly involved? Can't prove anything, but it's hard for me to believe he knew nothing.
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But how much of the academic side do we / should we place in the hands of coaches, rather than in the admissions offices that are specifically tasked with determining whether they should be admitted to school? And shouldn't the athletic department and admissions people (in some combination) determine the extent to which "special" considerations apply to prospective student athletes? I know that's how IU's system works, and that's the protocol for nearly every D1 school with special admissions policies. Cheating is cheating, and it should never benefit an athlete, but it's not at all clear what Cal knew about Bledsoe or Rose, and it's not clear that he ever should've been either UK's or Memphis' first line of defense with regard to those academic issues.
 
JC for 3 said:
If you guys aren't willing to adapt to today's college basketball landscape, that's not my problem, it's yours. The top talent in the sport are not 3-4 year players that get 4.0's and their degree. That is 'old school' nowadays.

Archie....I don't have much of a read on him yet, but what are you going to do/how are you going to feel if he goes the route of his brother @AZ? They are one of the programs that routinely recruit OAD's.... who's to say that Archie won't do that at IU?
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Did you really read what I brought to your attention earlier? You need to re-read it.
 
Oh, I get it....you're fully on board with the theory that Cal had a role or had knowledge of Rose cheating on his ACT and/or Bledsoe being eligible, but because of how these scenarios played out, the end result remains.... those are just theories.
 
Fredrica James said:
But how much of the academic side do we / should we place in the hands of coaches, rather than in the admissions offices that are specifically tasked with determining whether they should be admitted to school? And shouldn't the athletic department and admissions people (in some combination) determine the extent to which "special" considerations apply to prospective student athletes? I know that's how IU's system works, and that's the protocol for nearly every D1 school with special admissions policies. Cheating is cheating, and it should never benefit an athlete, but it's not at all clear what Cal knew about Bledsoe or Rose, and it's not clear that he ever should've been either UK's or Memphis' first line of defense with regard to those academic issues.
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Coaches know. Believe me when I say that, I've talked to many about this.

A lot of coaches will take a kid and try to get them into some sort of tutoring assistance - provided the student athlete in question has demonstrated a baseline ability to be able to function as a student. As I said before in this thread, Coach K never offered Bledsoe - for a reason. The same reason why IU wouldn't have taken Bledsoe, either. Hell, they wouldn't even admit Patterson.

Do a lot of kids that are going to UK handle the work academically? Probably so - but Calipari has demonstrated he is about getting the kid into school and getting them to the pros without true regard to them actually being a genuine student. THAT"s my issue with him.
 
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JC for 3 said:
Oh, I get it....you're fully on board with the theory that Cal had a role or had knowledge of Rose cheating on his ACT and/or Bledsoe being eligible, but because of how these scenarios played out, the end result remains.... those are just theories.
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Unless all the people I've met over the years are now lying to me (and I have no reason to believe they've now started to do such) I have no doubt they're telling the truth when they said Calipari not only knew those kids were suspect academically, but didn't really care - just as long as he could somehow get them eligible to play the mandatory year.

Cal is all about getting a kid to the pros, and makes no attempt to hide it. That's not what college basketball is supposed to be about. You can still be a one-and done and still embrace the student-athlete portion of college basketball. And I have no doubts CAM will do just that at IU.
 
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Tasmanian Devil said:
Coaches know. Believe me when I say that, I've talked to many about this.

A lot of coaches will take a kid and try to get them into some sort of tutoring assistance - provided the student athlete in question has demonstrated a baseline ability to be able to function as a student. As I said before in this thread, Coach K never offered Bledsoe - for a reason. The same reason why IU wouldn't have taken Bledsoe, either. Hell, they wouldn't even admit Patterson.

Do a lot of kids that are going to UK handle the work academically? Probably so - but Calipari has demonstrated he is about getting the kid into school and getting them to the pros without true regard to them actually being a genuine student. THAT"s my issue with him.
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Coaches know, except you already said Eddie didn't know about Camby and agreed that Cal didn't, either. And isn't the UK admissions office (and the Memphis one, too) the proper body to address academic issues? IU was ready to take Rose . . .
 
Fredrica James said:
Coaches know, except you already said Eddie didn't know about Camby and agreed that Cal didn't, either. And isn't the UK admissions office (and the Memphis one, too) the proper body to address academic issues? IU was ready to take Rose . . .
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Let me clarify: Coaches know about a player's academic ability.

KS might have been ready to accept a verbal commitment from DR. It's another story on whether IU would have actually admitted him as a student. We never got to that point with him.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
Unless all the people I've me over the years are now lying to me (and I have no reason to believe they've now started to do such) I have no doubt they're telling the truth when they said Calipari not only knew those kids were suspect academically, but didn't really care - just as long as he could somehow get them eligible to play the mandatory year.

Cal is all about getting a kid to the pros, and makes no attempt to hide it. That's not what college basketball is supposed to be about. You can still be a one-and ne and still embrace the student-athlete portion of college basketball. And I have no doubts CAM will do just that at IU.
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That used to be true but now that the NBA is a realistic job, then that's why you go to college. If i could leave after one year of science and work at NASA, then I'm going. Times and NBA paychecks have changed. It's job training as all college classes are. Same for tennis, football, baseball, soccer, track and field, etc...
 
Deli owl said:
That used to be true but now that the NBA is a realistic job, then that's why you go to college. If i could leave after one year of science and work at NASA, then I'm going. Times and NBA paychecks have changed. It's job training as all college classes are. Same for tennis, football, baseball, soccer, track and field, etc...
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No - it still is.

A kid wants to go pro - got no problem with that. But if they're going to use the college route as a means to get there, then they need to embrace the student portion of it.

They have other options (such as playing in Europe for a year). Coming to college for a year under the guise of being a student-athlete is BS.
 
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Tasmanian Devil said:
Let me clarify: Coaches know about a player's academic ability.

KS might have been ready to accept a verbal commitment from DR. It's another story on whether IU would have actually admitted him as a student. We never got to that point with him.
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And that's the point. Calipari didn't make admissions decisions at either UM or UK, yet he seems to be blamed for the decisions that admitted both of those kids.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
No - it still is.

A kid wants to go pro - got no problem with that. But if tew're going to use the college route as a means to get there, then they need to embrace the student portion of it.

They have other options (such as playing in Europe for a year). Coming to college for a year under the guise of being a student-athlete is BS.
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Was that true for John McEnroe and Tiger Woods at Stanford, both of whom were OAD in their respective sports?
 
Deli owl said:
That used to be true but now that the NBA is a realistic job, then that's why you go to college. If i could leave after one year of science and work at NASA, then I'm going. Times and NBA paychecks have changed. It's job training as all college classes are. Same for tennis, football, baseball, soccer, track and field, etc...
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Uh. I don't know.

Is there ANY other "realistic job" besides athletics where a "student-athlete" can go to "college" one year and by that become "qualified" to go "work" somewhere, anywhere?

Athletics is absolutely NOT "job training as all college classes are". Period. Athletics is different.

I know college athletics has been tainted with professionalism since the days of Knute Rockne. But today we're dealing with a 20-something culture that doesn't seem to think it's important to read, let alone go to class. If college athletics was supported by the normal education budget from taxes and out of state tuition, it simply wouldn't exist like today.

Don't insult us by saying athletics is just another job or that "tennis, ... baseball, soccer, track and field, etc..." is part of the conversation about basketball and football players.
 
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Fredrica James said:
Was that true for John McEnroe and Tiger Woods at Stanford, both of whom were OAD in their respective sports?
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Did JohnnyMac or Tiger take Algebra 3 before Algebra 2? And did either of those guys get into Stanford after flunking the ACT three times, then miraculously passing after taking it in another town?
 
Fredrica James said:
And that's the point. Calipari didn't make admissions decisions at either UM or UK, yet he seems to be blamed for the decisions that admitted both of those kids.
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It's both a coach AND institution issue.

Did we screw up and hire a coach who would wallow in the muck to get a kid like Rose? Yep - luckily we got rid of him. But saying IU would have lowered its standards just for a one year player is very doubtful.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
Did JohnnyMac or Tiger take Algebra 3 before Algebra 2? And did either of those guys get into Stanford after flunking the ACT three times, then miraculously passing after taking it in another town?
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Why wouldn't those and other issues be the responsibility of the admissions committee? Why would any coach be tasked with monitoring whether a kid cheated on a test? And why would there be different standards for what coaches are expected to know? And why shouldn't McEnroe and Tiger (and Jimmy Conners at UCLA) been able to attend Stanford as OAD's?
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
Let me clarify: Coaches know about a player's academic ability.

KS might have been ready to accept a verbal commitment from DR. It's another story on whether IU would have actually admitted him as a student. We never got to that point with him.
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Bingo. Highly unlikely DR would have ever set foot on campus as a student, but He was recruited by the former coach. The belief among many was/is that JC made the fraud happen. As much as I dislike KS, I don't see him doing that.
 
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rikki-tikka-tava said:
How convenient. To choose not to know/be ultimately responsible for your own Players. Never comes the day at IU.
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How did Cal choose not to Know or not be Ultimately Responsible for his players? Did Eddie choose not to Know at UMass? Did Knight Choose not to Know that a star player had a Huge drug problem? And you're not Dumb enough to suggest that Cal arranged the Rose SAT fiasco, are you, especially since it's well known that Reggie was the one who orchestrated it.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
It's both a coach AND institution issue.

Did we screw up and hire a coach who would wallow in the muck to get a kid like Rose? Yep - luckily we got rid of him. But saying IU would have lowered its standards just for a one year player is very doubtful.
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Would IU have admitted Rose? Who knows? Recruits generally don't make to campus on official visits without a reasonable chance of being admitted. And even in the BiG, special admissions decisions are made all the time. A school considered to be a little higher ranked academically than IU admitted a a huge recruit who couldn't get into IU on a bet and, for good measure, another outstanding player who failed to achieve a qualifying test score after 6 attempts. It happens.
 
Fredrica James said:
Why wouldn't those and other issues be the responsibility of the admissions committee? Why would any coach be tasked with monitoring whether a kid cheated on a test? And why would there be different standards for what coaches are expected to know? And why shouldn't McEnroe and Tiger (and Jimmy Conners at UCLA) been able to attend Stanford as OAD's?
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What exactly are you trying to argue?
 
Fredrica James said:
That there's an enormous, very convenient and incredibly obvious double standard in application here as it applies to coaches.
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Huh? I think I've made myself fairly clear here.

I don't begrudge a kid for going pro. I'd love to have OG back, but fully understand him taking off for the NBA.

But OG didn't come to IU strictly as a stop gap to get to the NBA. IU doesn't operate like that, and I will be very surprised (and dismayed) if CAM would attempt to bring in a kid just to get them to the NBA as Calipari does.

John McEnroe went to Stanford for one year to become a professional tennis player?

Uh . . . . NO. Think you need to read this:

From the article:

"Harry Cicma (HC): What did you enjoy the most about your college experience at Stanford? What did you learn?
John McEnroe (JM): For me it was a number of things. I got to enjoy the college experience, and I lived away from my parents for the first time in my life. I also got to play in a team environment - which I really enjoyed doing.
I came into college as the No. 22 ranked male player in the world, which was very unusual for college. So I entered my freshman year with a target on my back and some pressure on me, but it was the type of pressure I needed to deal with when I turned professional. It actually helped me because I sort of saw what it would be like if a great majority of the crowd was against me - which was something I somehow managed to do in the pros too often. As a pro, I had people rooting against me for reasons which were often my own fault.

HC: Looking back, do you think going to college was the right choice for you?
JM: I loved the college experience, and I often tell people that it was one of the best - if not the best - decision I've ever made in order to help my professional career. I could've turned pro at No. 20 in the world - as there were great endorsements - and I feel that I would've done well in the pros anyway. But going to college allowed me to go out and do what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to win the NCAAs.

And Tiger? Wasn't a 1-and-done:

From the article:

"In a world where prodigious sports talents tend to forgo higher education altogether for the pros, Tiger Woods chose to continue playing amateur golf at Stanford University as an economics major".

Now, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're telling us that Tiger was a 1-and-done (actually, two) as an economics major AT STANFORD to prepare him to play professional golf? And that his situation (or McEnroe's) equates to those of Rose and Bledsoe? Do econ majors at Stanford take Algebra 3 BEFORE Algebra 2 and ace it (some of the kids from there likely could have pulled if off, actually :) )? None of them would have been admitted with a transcript like Bledsoe's or ACT / SAT scores like Rose.
 
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Tasmanian Devil said:
Huh? I think I've made myself fairly clear here.

I don't begrudge a kid for going pro. I'd love to have OG back, but fully understand him taking off for the NBA.

But OG didn't come to IU strictly as a stop gap to get to the NBA. IU doesn't operate like that, and I will be very surprised (and dismayed) if CAM would attempt to bring in a kid just to get them to the NBA as Calipari does.

John McEnroe went to Stanford for one year to become a professional tennis player?

Uh . . . . NO. Think you need to read this:

From the article:

"Harry Cicma (HC): What did you enjoy the most about your college experience at Stanford? What did you learn?
John McEnroe (JM): For me it was a number of things. I got to enjoy the college experience, and I lived away from my parents for the first time in my life. I also got to play in a team environment - which I really enjoyed doing.
I came into college as the No. 22 ranked male player in the world, which was very unusual for college. So I entered my freshman year with a target on my back and some pressure on me, but it was the type of pressure I needed to deal with when I turned professional. It actually helped me because I sort of saw what it would be like if a great majority of the crowd was against me - which was something I somehow managed to do in the pros too often. As a pro, I had people rooting against me for reasons which were often my own fault.

HC: Looking back, do you think going to college was the right choice for you?
JM: I loved the college experience, and I often tell people that it was one of the best - if not the best - decision I've ever made in order to help my professional career. I could've turned pro at No. 20 in the world - as there were great endorsements - and I feel that I would've done well in the pros anyway. But going to college allowed me to go out and do what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to win the NCAAs.

And Tiger? Wasn't a 1-and-done:

From the article:

"In a world where prodigious sports talents tend to forgo higher education altogether for the pros, Tiger Woods chose to continue playing amateur golf at Stanford University as an economics major".

Now, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're telling us that Tiger was a 1-and-done (actually, two) as an economics major AT STANFORD to prepare him to play professional golf? And that his situation (or McEnroe's) equates to those of Rose and Bledsoe? Do econ majors at Stanford take Algebra 3 BEFORE Algebra 2 and ace it (some of the kids from there likely could have pulled if off, actually :) )? None of them would have been admitted with a transcript like Bledsoe's or ACT / SAT scores like Rose.
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The hypocrisy is in believing that Cal should've known everything while someone like Schilling was wonderfully oblivious regarding someone like Camby. It simply doesn't pass the smell test. As for the OAD examples I provided, neither of those guys intended to be in school for more than a year, regardless of their chosen course of study. Again, it's hypocritical to trash OAD's and then endorse them.
 
Tasmanian Devil said:
Huh? I think I've made myself fairly clear here.

I don't begrudge a kid for going pro. I'd love to have OG back, but fully understand him taking off for the NBA.

But OG didn't come to IU strictly as a stop gap to get to the NBA. IU doesn't operate like that, and I will be very surprised (and dismayed) if CAM would attempt to bring in a kid just to get them to the NBA as Calipari does.

John McEnroe went to Stanford for one year to become a professional tennis player?

Uh . . . . NO. Think you need to read this:

From the article:

"Harry Cicma (HC): What did you enjoy the most about your college experience at Stanford? What did you learn?
John McEnroe (JM): For me it was a number of things. I got to enjoy the college experience, and I lived away from my parents for the first time in my life. I also got to play in a team environment - which I really enjoyed doing.
I came into college as the No. 22 ranked male player in the world, which was very unusual for college. So I entered my freshman year with a target on my back and some pressure on me, but it was the type of pressure I needed to deal with when I turned professional. It actually helped me because I sort of saw what it would be like if a great majority of the crowd was against me - which was something I somehow managed to do in the pros too often. As a pro, I had people rooting against me for reasons which were often my own fault.

HC: Looking back, do you think going to college was the right choice for you?
JM: I loved the college experience, and I often tell people that it was one of the best - if not the best - decision I've ever made in order to help my professional career. I could've turned pro at No. 20 in the world - as there were great endorsements - and I feel that I would've done well in the pros anyway. But going to college allowed me to go out and do what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to win the NCAAs.

And Tiger? Wasn't a 1-and-done:

From the article:

"In a world where prodigious sports talents tend to forgo higher education altogether for the pros, Tiger Woods chose to continue playing amateur golf at Stanford University as an economics major".

Now, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're telling us that Tiger was a 1-and-done (actually, two) as an economics major AT STANFORD to prepare him to play professional golf? And that his situation (or McEnroe's) equates to those of Rose and Bledsoe? Do econ majors at Stanford take Algebra 3 BEFORE Algebra 2 and ace it (some of the kids from there likely could have pulled if off, actually :) )? None of them would have been admitted with a transcript like Bledsoe's or ACT / SAT scores like Rose.
Click to expand...

This
 
Fredrica James said:
Unfortunately for you, however, I'm also completely factual.
Click to expand...

And so very humble and humorful as well. Given your delusion of omniscience, "farcical" is a better fit.

Only the ignorant contest in absolutes. Save for comedians. But since you're not even mildly amusing...
 
rikki-tikka-tava said:
And so very humble and humorful as well. Given your delusion of omniscience, "farcical" is a better fit.

Only the ignorant contest in absolutes. Save for comedians. But since you're not even mildly amusing...
Click to expand...
I never claimed to be amusing, only factual. You're neither. Any luck finding help with your English deficiencies?
 
Fredrica James said:
And that's the point. Calipari didn't make admissions decisions at either UM or UK, yet he seems to be blamed for the decisions that admitted both of those kids.
Click to expand...
Well, maybe in part, but he's also being blamed for keeping them on the team and in the game and publicly acting like it's all okay with him.

Calipari is openly gaming the system and looks proud of it. Thankfully, it's beginning to look like he's really not much of a game coach and, let's face it, even I could "develop" John Wall or Karl-Anthony Towns to be good NBA players.
 
Fredrica James said:
The hypocrisy is in believing that Cal should've known everything while someone like Schilling was wonderfully oblivious regarding someone like Camby. It simply doesn't pass the smell test. As for the OAD examples I provided, neither of those guys intended to be in school for more than a year, regardless of their chosen course of study. Again, it's hypocritical to trash OAD's and then endorse them.
Click to expand...
Let's try this one more time, ok.

I never said Calipari knew - or didn't know - about what Camby got. In fact, I think I was quite explicit in saying coaches can't know what their players are doing 100% of the time, no matter if we're talking Coach K, John Calipari, Archie Miller . . . doesn't matter.

I also made it clear that I have no problem with a kid going pro. None. EVEN IF they're only in school one year.

There are several ways a kid can go pro. A kid can go overseas in Europe for a year, for example. And college isn't for everyone. BUT (listen closely now) if a kid is going to choose to go the college route to get to the pros, then they should be buying into the student portion of a student-athlete and doing the things necessary to prepare themselves to actually BE a student.

If you don't understand that, I'm not sure what else I can tell you.
 
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