Ashlii Babbitt

[Ohio Guy]

Some of you will remember that Babbitt was one of the rioters killed in the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6. I'm not going to repost what I just saw someone else post, but apparently there are some right wing groups claiming she was murdered and they're doxxing the Capitol policeman who shot her. Supposedly they're trying to tie him to BLM and create a whole conspiracy out of it, which I guess is what they're good at.

I don't quite get that. Yes, it's unfortunate and sad for her loved ones that she was killed that day, but she was illegally trespassing in the US Capitol. I've always thought it was a given that if you trespassed in highly secure federal buildings and refused to stand down after repeated warnings you'd get shot and most likely killed. If I walked onto a military base or the Pentagon and guards told me to stand down, I feel like it'd be foolish to not listen to them at that point because I'd end up dead otherwise.

Am I missing something here?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Some of you will remember that Babbitt was one of the rioters killed in the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6. I'm not going to repost what I just saw someone else post, but apparently there are some right wing groups claiming she was murdered and they're doxxing the Capitol policeman who shot her. Supposedly they're trying to tie him to BLM and create a whole conspiracy out of it, which I guess is what they're good at.

I don't quite get that. Yes, it's unfortunate and sad for her loved ones that she was killed that day, but she was illegally trespassing in the US Capitol. I've always thought it was a given that if you trespassed in highly secure federal buildings and refused to stand down after repeated warnings you'd get shot and most likely killed. If I walked onto a military base or the Pentagon and guards told me to stand down, I feel like it'd be foolish to not listen to them at that point because I'd end up dead otherwise.

Am I missing something here?

Senseless morons overreacting to a death caused by someone making stupid choices? Hmmm... where have I come across that before...

The short answer is no. She got what she deserved.

 

[UncleMark]

I don't quite get that. Yes, it's unfortunate and sad for her loved ones that she was killed that day, but she was illegally trespassing in the US Capitol. I've always thought it was a given that if you trespassed in highly secure federal buildings and refused to stand down after repeated warnings you'd get shot and most likely killed.

It's surprising to me that there wasn't more of an armed response from the Capital Police and that more people weren't shot or killed.

 

[Standard Issue]

It's surprising to me that there wasn't more of an armed response from the Capital Police and that more people weren't shot or killed.

I never pondered it much prior to the knuckleheads doing their insurrection cos-play, but I would have thought there would have been lockers (discretely hidden) containing shotguns available to slow down such a group.

 

[UncleMark]

I never pondered it much prior to the knuckleheads doing their insurrection cos-play, but I would have thought there would have been lockers (discretely hidden) containing shotguns available to slow down such a group.

Hindsight. Preparing for the unimaginable is hard.

 

[DrHoops]

I never pondered it much prior to the knuckleheads doing their insurrection cos-play, but I would have thought there would have been lockers (discretely hidden) containing shotguns available to slow down such a group.

It's pretty unbelievable how lax the security was that day. Then again, who would think so many "Americans" would invade their own capitol building?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Some of you will remember that Babbitt was one of the rioters killed in the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6. I'm not going to repost what I just saw someone else post, but apparently there are some right wing groups claiming she was murdered and they're doxxing the Capitol policeman who shot her. Supposedly they're trying to tie him to BLM and create a whole conspiracy out of it, which I guess is what they're good at.

I don't quite get that. Yes, it's unfortunate and sad for her loved ones that she was killed that day, but she was illegally trespassing in the US Capitol. I've always thought it was a given that if you trespassed in highly secure federal buildings and refused to stand down after repeated warnings you'd get shot and most likely killed. If I walked onto a military base or the Pentagon and guards told me to stand down, I feel like it'd be foolish to not listen to them at that point because I'd end up dead otherwise.

Am I missing something here?

You’re not missing anything. She broke the law, was told that was a no-go zone and she continued and was shot. What you won’t hear is how the shooting was racist (it wasn’t) or a hate crime against women. That only comes from one side. There may be fringe right wing groups posting nonsense but if it were a BLM protest storming the Capitol and a black lady got shot by a white cop the news outlets would cream their jeans.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Some of you will remember that Babbitt was one of the rioters killed in the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6. I'm not going to repost what I just saw someone else post, but apparently there are some right wing groups claiming she was murdered and they're doxxing the Capitol policeman who shot her. Supposedly they're trying to tie him to BLM and create a whole conspiracy out of it, which I guess is what they're good at.

I don't quite get that. Yes, it's unfortunate and sad for her loved ones that she was killed that day, but she was illegally trespassing in the US Capitol. I've always thought it was a given that if you trespassed in highly secure federal buildings and refused to stand down after repeated warnings you'd get shot and most likely killed. If I walked onto a military base or the Pentagon and guards told me to stand down, I feel like it'd be foolish to not listen to them at that point because I'd end up dead otherwise.

Am I missing something here?

July 29, 2020--Seattle--Rioters broke into the federal courthouse and set a fire, trying to burn down the building.

July 22, 2020--Portland--Rioters barricaded federal officers inside a courthouse and tried to set it on fire.

I don't think anybody got shot in the neck, even though federal officers were being directly threatened in those situations. If fact, there was a lot of pushback against any resistance by officers....people saying "it's only property".

If this officer was being personally threatened in the D.C. I get it. Was he under attack? I don't know. I'd like to see the results of an investigation.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

July 29, 2020--Seattle--Rioters broke into the federal courthouse and set a fire, trying to burn down the building.

July 22, 2020--Portland--Rioters barricaded federal officers inside a courthouse and tried to set it on fire.

I don't think anybody got shot in the neck, even though federal officers were being directly threatened in those situations. If fact, there was a lot of pushback against any resistance by officers....people saying "it's only property".

If this officer was being personally threatened in the D.C. I get it. Was he under attack? I don't know. I'd like to see the results of an investigation.

That was clearly a legal use of lethal force. They had to establish a Thou Shalt Not Pass line and the CP did and she did her dumb thing. If they gained access to that hallway it may have been impossible to stop them.

Surely they’re investigating. Surely it was a legitimate use of deadly force.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You’re not missing anything. She broke the law, was told that was a no-go zone and she continued and was shot. What you won’t hear is how the shooting was racist (it wasn’t) or a hate crime against women. That only comes from one side. There may be fringe right wing groups posting nonsense but if it were a BLM protest storming the Capitol and a black lady got shot by a white cop the news outlets would cream their jeans.​

President elect Biden immediately made this a racial thing by creating a hypothetical response to hypothetical facts and then screaming RACISM! His knee jerk version of unity was to smear the Capitol cops with racism, not protect them.

“You can’t tell me that if it had been a group of Black Lives Matter protesters yesterday they wouldn’t have been treated very differently than the mob of thugs that stormed the Capitol,” Biden said in Wilmington, before beginning to hammer his fist against the lectern. “We all know that is true. And it is totally unacceptable. Totally unacceptable. The American people saw it in plain view.”​

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

President elect Biden immediately made this a racial thing by creating a hypothetical response to hypothetical facts and then screaming RACISM! His knee jerk version of unity was to smear the Capitol cops with racism, not protect them.

“You can’t tell me that if it had been a group of Black Lives Matter protesters yesterday they wouldn’t have been treated very differently than the mob of thugs that stormed the Capitol,” Biden said in Wilmington, before beginning to hammer his fist against the lectern. “We all know that is true. And it is totally unacceptable. Totally unacceptable. The American people saw it in plain view.”​

Yep. Completely unacceptable. His Vp did the same during the Breonna Taylor incident and disqualified herself with me - a never Trumper.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yep. Completely unacceptable. His Vp did the same during the Breonna Taylor incident and disqualified herself with me - a never Trumper.

Why is it completely unacceptable, though? I mean, he was probably right. Things most likely would have turned out quite differently in that hypothetical situation. So what's so awful about saying it?

That's a genuine question. I have my on thoughts on possible answers, but would like to hear yours.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You’re not missing anything. She broke the law, was told that was a no-go zone and she continued and was shot. What you won’t hear is how the shooting was racist (it wasn’t) or a hate crime against women. That only comes from one side. There may be fringe right wing groups posting nonsense but if it were a BLM protest storming the Capitol and a black lady got shot by a white cop the news outlets would cream their jeans.

And we would all know who it was that shot her.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Why is it completely unacceptable, though? I mean, he was probably right. Things most likely would have turned out quite differently in that hypothetical situation. So what's so awful about saying it?

That's a genuine question. I have my on thoughts on possible answers, but would like to hear yours.

He’s not probably right. That’s nonsense. He had all the time in the world to wait for an investigation and facts come in yet he selected a ridiculously inflammatory thing to say in the moment. It was un-presidential and disqualifying. He’s a pandering ass.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

He had all the time in the world to wait for an investigation and facts come in yet he selected a ridiculously inflammatory thing to say in the moment. It was un-presidential and disqualifying. He’s a pandering ass.

All of that is a possible answer to my question. But it doesn't follow that he's wrong. I think common sense says he's probably right. That doesn't mean he should say it.

 

[HooDatGuy]

All of that is a possible answer to my question. But it doesn't follow that he's wrong. I think common sense says he's probably right. That doesn't mean he should say it.

I don’t think he’s right. Capitol police are going to start mowing down unarmed black people.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don’t think he’s right. Capitol police are going to start mowing down unarmed black people.

Typo, I presume?

I don't know about mowing down, but I think the police response to Jan 6 was very, very restrained. I don't think all different possible mobs would have seen that restraint.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Typo, I presume?

I don't know about mowing down, but I think the police response to Jan 6 was very, very restrained. I don't think all different possible mobs would have seen that restraint.

Yes typo. Either way, I think we agree that there is no way anyone could know for certain what the response would have been with a less homogeneous crowd. Which is why it was a dumb thing to say.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yes typo. Either way, I think we agree that there is no way anyone could know for certain what the response would have been with a less homogeneous crowd. Which is why it was a dumb thing to say.

Let's explore a different hypothetical - and please bear with me; I do have a point. Let's say, instead of Trump supporters, a giant protest of radical Muslim Americans was protesting the fact that a Islamist government based on Sharia was not being installed, and they got riled up and stormed the capital. What do you think happens?

 

[mcmurtry66]

He’s not probably right. That’s nonsense. He had all the time in the world to wait for an investigation and facts come in yet he selected a ridiculously inflammatory thing to say in the moment. It was un-presidential and disqualifying. He’s a pandering ass.

He did the same thing with equal pay - with zero knowledge of the facts and a pending case

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

All of that is a possible answer to my question. But it doesn't follow that he's wrong. I think common sense says he's probably right. That doesn't mean he should say it.

Common sense doesn’t say it’s right. Common sense looks up a couple of quick facts like the Cap police is mostly minorities and one can use common sense to realize it’s probably not about race. It’s probably more about being totally unprepared for an asinine president to say what he said and being unprepared for the shit to hit the fan.

They also probably expected many in that crowd to be armed because Trumpies love guns and went more into a Contain and Deescalate mode as we discussed here that day. Thinking about the BLM comparator - which by itself is stupid given that cops were being pelted by objects in those protests and didn’t retaliate - is a glimpse into the mind of a race baiting panderer.

 

[Standard Issue]

Typo, I presume?

I don't know about mowing down, but I think the police response to Jan 6 was very, very restrained. I don't think all different possible mobs would have seen that restraint.

Even now I am amazed that they didn't have a pinch point they could have fallen back to and loud speakers telling the insurrectionist they would catch buckshot if they tried to pass.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Common sense doesn’t say it’s right. Common sense looks up a couple of quick facts like the Cap police is mostly minorities and one can use common sense to realize it’s probably not about race. It’s probably more about being totally unprepared for an asinine president to say what he said and being unprepared for the shit to hit the fan.

They also probably expected many in that crowd to be armed because Trumpies love guns and went more into a Contain and Deescalate mode as we discussed here that day. Thinking about the BLM comparator - which by itself is stupid given that cops were being pelted by objects in those protests and didn’t retaliate - is a glimpse into the mind of a race baiting panderer.

This post is a mess, Ranger. You assert that his comment isn't right in your first paragraph, but in your second, you explore possible non-race reasons why it might very well be right.

Why is the race of the cops important? You need to be able to see past the trees to the forest. Forget about assigning racial motives to individuals. Forget about why thinks might happen a certain way. Just ask yourself, "If BLM had protested the counting of the EC and breached the capital, would only one of them have been killed?"

I think any answer other than "No way" is obviously laughable.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Let's explore a different hypothetical - and please bear with me; I do have a point. Let's say, instead of Trump supporters, a giant protest of radical Muslim Americans was protesting the fact that a Islamist government based on Sharia was not being installed, and they got riled up and stormed the capital. What do you think happens?

Interesting point. Are there enough American Muslims who believe in Sharia law to form a protest of that size?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Interesting point. Are there enough American Muslims who believe in Sharia law to form a protest of that size?

I don't know. I doubt it. But if it did happen, we both can agree the LE response would have been much less restrained, right?

 

[HooDatGuy]

I don't know. I doubt it. But if it did happen, we both can agree the LE response would have been much less restrained, right?

Probably. But that’s an entirely different scenario than a BLM protest, which we all know is what Biden was referencing, and of which there had already been 100’s in the months preceding.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Probably. But that’s an entirely different scenario than a BLM protest, which we all know is what Biden was referencing, and of which there had already been 100’s in the months preceding.

I know it's an entirely different scenario. But the point is, we all implicit accept the reality that different groups would be engaged differently based on numerous factors. The MAGA Brigade got the benefit of some kid gloves that the hypothetical Jihadis definitely would not have received.

Now, I don't think this is two sides of a coin. I think it's part of a complicated spectrum of multiple things that inform how we respond to a dangerous situation, and I think it's pretty much common sense that a BLM mob in that situation would not have been treated like either group, but would have fallen somewhere in the middle. In other words, I think it's pretty much a given that the police would not have been as restrained as they were.

That doesn't mean it would have been overwhelming force, and it certainly doesn't mean that the reason would be because capitol police are all racists. But I do think it's pretty much common sense that the response would have differed, and if we can just allow ourselves to be capable of taking a comment for what it's worth and not loading it down with a bunch of baggage, then in that sense, Biden was right.

That still doesn't mean he should have said it. There are often many good reasons not to say something that is true.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

This post is a mess, Ranger. You assert that his comment isn't right in your first paragraph, but in your second, you explore possible non-race reasons why it might very well be right.

Why is the race of the cops important? You need to be able to see past the trees to the forest. Forget about assigning racial motives to individuals. Forget about why thinks might happen a certain way. Just ask yourself, "If BLM had protested the counting of the EC and breached the capital, would only one of them have been killed?"

I think any answer other than "No way" is obviously laughable.

If you’re arguing semantics or moving goalposts like your favorite poster then I’m not going there with you. If you are now saying that Biden’s sham statement wasn’t to basically call the police a bunch of racists then we’re arguing past each other.

You can pretend that all of the anti-police riots and propaganda isn’t necessarily calling cops racist, but you’d be a foolhardy naive idiot if you really believe that.

White Woman Confronts Black Cops at Protest, Says They're Part of Problem

An estimated 15.5 percent of U.S. law enforcement officers are Black, but Black Americans are still six times more likely than white Americans to end up in prison.

www.newsweek.com

This is how BlueAnon thinks.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I struggle heartily with how the police are systematically racist when their demographics mirror the general population. Over represented in major cities usually.

It’s complete and utter nonsense.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I struggle heartily with how the police are systematically racist when their demographics mirror the general population. Over represented in major cities usually.

It’s complete and utter nonsense.

That’s the problem Guy. We should be having a discussion about police violence but the usual idiots at Racism Inc. have to distort the issue to keep guys like Ben Crump and Sharpton on the job and get Democrats elected.

Police violence is an issue - I’m a conservative and I believe that very deeply. But we can’t have this discussion.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If you’re arguing semantics or moving goalposts like your favorite poster then I’m not going there with you. If you are now saying that Biden’s sham statement wasn’t to basically call the police a bunch of racists then we’re arguing past each other.

You can pretend that all of the anti-police riots and propaganda isn’t necessarily calling cops racist, but you’d be a foolhardy naive idiot if you really believe that.

White Woman Confronts Black Cops at Protest, Says They're Part of Problem

An estimated 15.5 percent of U.S. law enforcement officers are Black, but Black Americans are still six times more likely than white Americans to end up in prison.

www.newsweek.com

This is how BlueAnon thinks.

I'm not moving any goalposts! Biden said the response would have been different, and you are the one who translated that as "cops are racists." Did Biden say it was because cops are racist? If he did, I missed it, but I very well may have done just that.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I'm not moving any goalposts! Biden said the response would have been different, and you are the one who translated that as "cops are racists." Did Biden say it was because cops are racist? If he did, I missed it, but I very well may have done just that.

I translated it as that - I don’t know anybody besides you who thinks otherwise.

If he didn’t mean that he’s even dumber than i think he already is. If he truly thought that their tact was softer, as they stood there without riot gear and without a good plan in place, than it is in protests where the cops were being pelted with rocks and other items then he’s more than just a speech plagiarizing swampy pol, he’s an outright fool.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I translated it as that - I don’t know anybody besides you who thinks otherwise.

If he didn’t mean that he’s even dumber than i think he already is. If he truly thought that their tact was softer, as they stood there without riot gear and without a good plan in place, than it is in protests where the cops were being pelted with rocks and other items then he’s more than just a speech plagiarizing swampy pol, he’s an outright fool.

I'm afraid, Ranger, this is a critical divide in our nation, which affects even smart, objective people, and not just partisan hacks. You think it's perfectly reasonable to translate that as "cops are racists." I do not. This is the crux of our argument over CRT, and the difference between how I interpret it - and what you say CRT's original intention may have been - and how you interpret it - and what you say is how it is applied now. I don't know how to make it clearer than to just say this: Claims of structural racism are not claims that the people who are part of the system are themselves racist as individuals. If you don't believe that distinction is possible to draw, then we can never have a meaningful conversation about this, because the entire fight against structural racism rests on not conflating it with individual racism.

Edit: Forgive me Ranger, I don't mean to cut off discussion with this, if it came off that way. It's just a bit frustrating that you and I appear to be talking past each other, and I thought we could get over that by now.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I'm afraid, Ranger, this is a critical divide in our nation, which affects even smart, objective people, and not just partisan hacks. You think it's perfectly reasonable to translate that as "cops are racists." I do not. This is the crux of our argument over CRT, and the difference between how I interpret it - and what you say CRT's original intention may have been - and how you interpret it - and what you say is how it is applied now. I don't know how to make it clearer than to just say this: Claims of structural racism are not claims that the people who are part of the system are themselves racist as individuals. If you don't believe that distinction is possible to draw, then we can never have a meaningful conversation about this, because the entire fight against structural racism rests on not conflating it with individual racism.

Structural racism by definition needs to have racist people and/ or policies.

Show me the racist person or policy and let’s fight it together. Otherwise you’re just yelling into the ether.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Structural racism by definition needs to have racist people and/ or policies.

Show me the racist person or policy and let’s fight it together. Otherwise you’re just yelling into the ether.

No, it doesn't. That's important.

I mean, our structural racism is certainly rooted in actual racist individuals. But a lot of them aren't alive, anymore.

 

[HooDatGuy]

No, it doesn't. That's important.

I mean, our structural racism is certainly rooted in actual racist individuals. But a lot of them aren't alive, anymore.

So what’s the solution?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

So what’s the solution?

I think acknowledging that it's a real problem would be a good start.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I think acknowledging that it's a real problem would be a good start.

Which is the canned response...

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Which is the canned response...

Please don't brush this off. We're having a good discussion. It's a legitimate point. Instead of jumping ahead three steps, some of us are just saying, let's admit this is an issue.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Please don't brush this off. We're having a good discussion. It's a legitimate point. Instead of jumping ahead three steps, some of us are just saying, let's admit this is an issue.

I’m not brushing anything off. If someone proposes a good idea to lessen racism or improve equality of opportunity, I’m all ears.

Most of what I hear from today’s left is misguided admonishing. Not that I believe you’re doing that, but if you’re going to claim there’s a problem I need specifics.