Archie would be fired if this were Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina

[Univee2]

That right there is precisely what I’m talking about. Knight changed the program’s culture. It was a lot more than just “he’s a better coach than Lou Watson.”

We need a cultural change. And I think that the central theme of it needs to be accountability — of the coaches from the admins, of the players from the coaches.

I don’t think the program’s staunchest defender could say with a straight face that we currently have a culture of accountability. Guys continue to do the same things that hurt us and.....well, and nothing. They continue to do the same things that hurt us in the next game, too. And Archie — well, he shall feel no heat....lest you’re a “hater.”

The complaint about Watson was that his practice philosophy was along the lines of "just roll some balls out on the court and let 'em play for a while."

The unrealistic expectations were huge, centered on the belief that the class of McGinnis, Downing and Daniels, combined with Joby Wright, should have won the NCAA in the 70-71 season.

 

[Kyser123]

CAM is more bark , less bite.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Really, I've had it. I'm just tired of your defense of Archie, and obviously not everybody here is his girlfriend. Is the product you see on court defensible for 3.5M$. I and most of us see that and think we'd rather move on, so shove it.

The product on the floor is not defensible — so nobody defends it. If you pay careful attention, it’s all about waiting around for the product to improve in the future.

But it won’t. Not much anyway. And it’s not simply because Archie’s a mediocre coach (though he is that, I think). The problem goes deeper than that.

We are not committed to winning. Until we are committed to winning, we’ll continue to be somewhere around average.

 

[Birnk403]

The complaint about Watson was that his practice philosophy was along the lines of "just roll some balls out on the court and let 'em play for a while."

The unrealistic expectations were huge, centered on the belief that the class of McGinnis, Downing and Daniels, combined with Joby Wright, should have won the NCAA in the 70-71 season.

Expectations were high, but nobody thought that team was NCAA tournament championship level. No one.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I disagree. I think he’s safe for at least two more years, especially if he’s able to finish one of those years in the top half of the conference and make the NCAA tournament. That would be considered more than acceptable by the University and many fans and worthy of retention, at the very least.

And there it is again. I’m not saying you embrace this outlook — what was it Bush said...the soft bigotry of low expectations?

But you’re absolutely right that these lowly “accomplishments” would be sufficient for many people to not change direction.

This is why we have had such poor results for so long. We can change that, if we choose.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Its well beyond that, its not even in Clem;s realm .. didn't he take them to F4 with Bobby Jackson, I don't think we can expect that ROI soon, it's just terrible and sorry to say, he needs to be fired, and we move on

He did, but it got vacated in the academic scandal that brought down Haskins. That team also had Courtney James from Ben Davis, iirc.

 

[Univee2]

Expectations were high, but nobody thought that team was NCAA tournament championship level. No one.

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. Numerous people were pissed with that 21-7, I believe, season. If you weren't around, you wouldn't know.

 

[Birnk403]

And there it is again. I’m not saying you embrace this outlook — what was it Bush said...the soft bigotry of low expectations?

But you’re absolutely right that these lowly “accomplishments” would be sufficient for many people to not change direction.

This is why we have had such poor results for so long. We can change that, if we choose.

I don’t embrace it but rather accept that it now represents the feelings of many fans, friends and administrators of IU, and that it becomes more entrenched every day.

 

[Birnk403]

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. Numerous people were pissed with that 21-7, I believe, season. If you weren't around, you wouldn't know.

Pissed at 21-7 is different than not dethroning UCLA as the national champions. No one expected that. I was around then and your view of people’s expectations simply isn’t accurate in any way.

 

[bailey777]

To put it lay terms, he's not even our Matt Dougherty, he just sucks and will continue to suck until some people decide to not pay him 3.5M$ for sucking. I hope he just resigns, next year is just more tarnish on everything, but I wouldn't doubt the prick would take advantage, just stupid. They should fir him now!

Why would he resign? He gets 3.5 million and will likely not get fired for two more years.

 

[bailey777]

I disagree. I think he’s safe for at least two more years, especially if he’s able to finish one of those years in the top half of the conference and make the NCAA tournament. That would be considered more than acceptable by the University and many fans and worthy of retention, at the very least.

If he safely makes the ncaa in the next two years he will get an extension. Thats big success at iu these days.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I don’t embrace it but rather accept that it now represents the feelings of many fans, friends and administrators of IU, and that it becomes more entrenched every day.

I agree with everything but the “accept it” part. To whatever degree I ever did accept it, I no longer am. I think it has been thoroughly discredited and must be fought. The people who perpetuate it need to be shamed.

It’s the reason our program has been stuck in the doldrums for decades, through a number of coaches and ADs. Why should anybody accept that?

 

[Birnk403]

I agree with everything but the “accept it” part. To whatever degree I ever did accept it, I no longer am. I think it has been thoroughly discredited and must be fought. The people who perpetuate it need to be shamed.

It’s the reason our program has been stuck in the doldrums for decades, through a number of coaches and ADs. Why should anybody accept that?

I agree it should be discredited and fought, but I accept that it’s the prevailing sentiment among large swaths of stakeholders. I’m not happy about that reality and I don’t endorse it, but t seems futile to not acknowledge it. I think we’re in agreement here.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

If he safely makes the ncaa in the next two years he will get an extension. Thats big success at iu these days.

You also need to realize if you don’t give an extension it hurts recruiting. You either give an extension or move on from him.

 

[twenty02]

The product on the floor is not defensible — so nobody defends it. If you pay careful attention, it’s all about waiting around for the product to improve in the future.

But it won’t. Not much anyway. And it’s not simply because Archie’s a mediocre coach (though he is that, I think). The problem goes deeper than that.

We are not committed to winning. Until we are committed to winning, we’ll continue to be somewhere around average.

What exactly is "committed to winning"? $100k payments via sneaker companies to recruits? Setting up fake academic major programs for players?

 

[abraxis]

That right there is precisely what I’m talking about. Knight changed the program’s culture. It was a lot more than just “he’s a better coach than Lou Watson.”

We need a cultural change. And I think that the central theme of it needs to be accountability — of the coaches from the admins, of the players from the coaches.

I don’t think the program’s staunchest defender could say with a straight face that we currently have a culture of accountability. Guys continue to do the same things that hurt us and.....well, and nothing. They continue to do the same things that hurt us in the next game, too. And Archie — well, he shall feel no heat....lest you’re a “hater.”

The trouble is, it starts with the mindset of the highest leadership at IU. The last we heard from them regarding the matter is that academics will no longer take a second seat to athletics, particularly the seemingly overzealous, fanatical culture that Bob Knight basketball produced. Here we sit, twenty years later without a peep from them since. They got their way and are happy now in their cloistered world of academia with its annual self adulation of ceremonial curriculum vitae and pompous garb on display like peacocks sporting hard-ons each graduation day.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

What exactly is "committed to winning"? $100k payments via sneaker companies to recruits? Setting up fake academic major programs for players?

Nope. It’s benching players when they aren’t helping the team. It’s suspending players for fighting with each other — and publicizing doing so. It’s demanding that everybody carries their load and does their job and making it clear that, if you don’t, you aren’t going to last.

Ask people who have played for the Patriots during the Brady/Belichick era. They even have a term for it and everybody there damn well knows it: “the Patriot way.” There have been some fascinating interviews with guys who have played there and who talk about the culture of excellence. It is mostly about absolute accountability.

Yoy miss block outs? Sit down until you no longer do. We don’t tolerate that here.

Another example I gave was Villanova and Quinerly. Could you imagine Archie having benched Romeo as Wright did with that kid? He probably should have, quite frankly. But our cultural problems would never have allowed it.

 

[Birnk403]

The trouble is, it starts with the mindset of the highest leadership at IU. The last we heard from them regarding the matter is that academics will no longer take a second seat to athletics, particularly the seemingly overzealous, fanatical culture that Bob Knight basketball produced. Here we sit, twenty years later without a peep from them since. They got their way and are happy now in their cloistered world of academia with its annual self adulation of ceremonial curriculum vitae and pompous garb on display like peacocks sporting hard-ons each graduation day.

That’s not, in any way, what the IU leadership said. You’ve completely mischaracterized it. Completely.

 

[twenty02]

Nope. It’s benching players when they aren’t helping the team. It’s suspending players for fighting with each other — and publicizing doing so. It’s demanding that everybody carries their load and does their job and making it clear that, if you don’t, you aren’t going to last.

Ask people who have played for the Patriots during the Brady/Belichick era. They even have a term for it and everybody there damn well knows it: “the Patriot way.” There have been some fascinating interviews with guys who have played there and who talk about the culture of excellence. It is mostly about absolute accountability.

Yoy miss block outs? Sit down until you no longer do. We don’t tolerate that here.

Another example I gave was Villanova and Quinerly. Could you imagine Archie having benched Romeo as Wright did with that kid? He probably should have, quite frankly. But our cultural problems would never have allowed it.

That's nice..... though it sounds closer to the BS I hear from the latest speaker/ author of the month at most business leadership conferences I attend.

What you just gloss over is that people like Wright and Belichick have the ability to do those things

1) because they have garnered long term respect from the accomplishments that took an entire life's career to obtain. Belichick was coaching in the NFL for 25 years before getting the head job at the Patriots. He already had a failed at one head coaching job.... why didn't he have the magic touch with the Browns? Because it takes a lot of things to go right at the same time for greatness to occur. I'm quite sure the majority of NFL teams are totally "dedicated to winning", but that doesn't mean shit if you don't have the perfect pieces in place.... which a lot of the time comes down to luck.

Wright has coached at Nova for twenty years, and didn't really start winning anything until his 5th season... and didn't become the consistent Nova/ Wright program we now know until like his 12th or 13th year.

2) their long tenures and accomplishments have given them nearly lifetime job security in their jobs. That frees them up from most criticism and allows them to practice things like you are preaching. Knight had that kind of leash here as well, for years. Obviously Archie does not.... and feels the heat to win now.

None of that is the least bit applicable to the current state of the IU program. No offense, but I think it's total nonsense. We had a prior coach that spent years with this "winning culture", recruiting year- round winners, etc.... I'll pass.

 

[abraxis]

That’s not, in any way, what the IU leadership said. You’ve completely mischaracterized it. Completely.

Okay, time has distorted my details...not something unusual, it happens and I’m forced to move on. You sound very self assured in your recollection. Would you care to share in more accurate specifics, Einstein?

 

[Radio Zero]

That's nice..... though it sounds closer to the BS I hear from the latest speaker/ author of the month at most business leadership conferences I attend.

What you just gloss over is that people like Wright and Belichick have the ability to do those things

1) because they have garnered long term respect from the accomplishments that took an entire life's career to obtain. Belichick was coaching in the NFL for 25 years before getting the head job at the Patriots. He already had a failed at one head coaching job.... why didn't he have the magic touch with the Browns? Because it takes a lot of things to go right at the same time for greatness to occur. I'm quite sure the majority of NFL teams are totally "dedicated to winning", but that doesn't mean shit if you don't have the perfect pieces in place.... which a lot of the time comes down to luck.

Wright has coached at Nova for twenty years, and didn't really start winning anything until his 5th season... and didn't become the consistent Nova/ Wright program we now know until like his 12th or 13th year.

2) their long tenures and accomplishments have given them nearly lifetime job security in their jobs. That frees them up from most criticism and allows them to practice things like you are preaching. Knight had that kind of leash here as well, for years. Obviously Archie does not.... and feels the heat to win now.

None of that is the least bit applicable to the current state of the IU program. No offense, but I think it's total nonsense. We had a prior coach that spent years with this "winning culture", recruiting year- round winners, etc.... I'll pass.

Thank you. One of the most all around sensible posts I’ve read on here in some time, from your criticism of the “drawing life lessons and spiritual insight from the flavor-of-the-month management guru-idiot” to pointing out someone like Wright, RMK, etc. EARNED the ability to operate as they chose and that Coach AM is in a completely different situation.

I’d like your post twice if I could.

 

[Birnk403]

Okay, time has distorted my details...not something unusual, it happens and I’m forced to move on. You sound very self assured in your recollection. Would you care to share in more accurate specifics, Einstein?

The IU leadership said that Knight (or any other coach) would no longer be permitted to engage in boorish and embarrassing behavior with impunity, and that winning and following the rules were not acceptable excuses for choosing to not conduct oneself appropriately. Knight ran roughshod over those tenets for nearly three decades and believed he could behave as he chose. Further, he believed, with good reason, that he was not accountable to anyone at IU for his actions. IU finally had enough. It was really that simple.

 

[go_iu]

Well, I don’t think Archie’s a prick and I wouldn’t blame him for not resigning with time left on his contract. Almost nobody does that in big dollar sports. He’s just not a very good basketball coach.

Would you accept another 3.5M for a lame duck year and continued sucking when you know you're gone and you're really just tearing down the program that's already paid you 10M to make it good, but you didn't and just ruining your coaching reputation by taking another free year. I'd call that a prick

 

[go_iu]

Zero chance he's not here 5 years. Zilch. Not sure what planet some of you are living on, but that just isn't happening. After his 5th year, all bets are off.

Odds are immeasurably higher that he's the coach for 10+ years than it is that he's canned after 4 years. Besides they will make the tourney this season, most likely... which is what you said is all that matters.

Listen dumbass, odds are that half of us would be a better coach than Archie in that time if we get a 10 year pass and motivated by 3.5M

No way they make the tourney playing like this, they don't have the resume, don't pass the eye test, and we no longer have the cachet to say, it's IU and they're just rebuilding and young, but they'll do something come March, which actually isn't reality. The bottom line is we don't have much talent, and that which we do have is inconsistent and poorly coached.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Our program is basically average at best.

Even average teams make the tournament from time to time, this year will be 8 times in 12 years that we don't even make it.

 

[twenty02]

Listen dumbass, odds are that half of us would be a better coach than Archie in that time if we get a 10 year pass and motived by 3.5M

From the guy who doesn't know the difference between a zone and man 2 man defense..... that's pretty hysterical.

 

[go_iu]

Yes, really. You post like an emotional child. I'm very serious about that.

So you admit that he sucks, you'd prefer to suck things, for how long? I don't like sucking, so maybe this is an adult matter I don't get to voice an opinion on? Sure I'll leave that one up to you

 

[go_iu]

From the guy who doesn't know the difference between a zone and man 2 man defense..... that's pretty hysterical.

We should just play zone, obviously our players don't grasp the distinction and can't guard anybody. At least zone doesn't have to give up as much 3's as we do.

 

[go_iu]

That's nice..... though it sounds closer to the BS I hear from the latest speaker/ author of the month at most business leadership conferences I attend.

What you just gloss over is that people like Wright and Belichick have the ability to do those things

1) because they have garnered long term respect from the accomplishments that took an entire life's career to obtain. Belichick was coaching in the NFL for 25 years before getting the head job at the Patriots. He already had a failed at one head coaching job.... why didn't he have the magic touch with the Browns? Because it takes a lot of things to go right at the same time for greatness to occur. I'm quite sure the majority of NFL teams are totally "dedicated to winning", but that doesn't mean shit if you don't have the perfect pieces in place.... which a lot of the time comes down to luck.

Wright has coached at Nova for twenty years, and didn't really start winning anything until his 5th season... and didn't become the consistent Nova/ Wright program we now know until like his 12th or 13th year.

2) their long tenures and accomplishments have given them nearly lifetime job security in their jobs. That frees them up from most criticism and allows them to practice things like you are preaching. Knight had that kind of leash here as well, for years. Obviously Archie does not.... and feels the heat to win now.

None of that is the least bit applicable to the current state of the IU program. No offense, but I think it's total nonsense. We had a prior coach that spent years with this "winning culture", recruiting year- round winners, etc.... I'll pass.

Wait just a min., you go to "business leadership" conferences or are forced to … how perfectly gay

 

[go_iu]

I disagree. I think he’s safe for at least two more years, especially if he’s able to finish one of those years in the top half of the conference and make the NCAA tournament. That would be considered more than acceptable by the University and many fans and worthy of retention, at the very least.

One would hope they learned from the Crean years, and unjustly extending him based on one year and one player he wouldn't ever sniff again. He's not getting it done, that's his own fault and nobody else's, just because he's not getting it done and it will kill recruiting (which it already has) is absolutely NOT a reason to extend him, 2nd chance, and prolong the inevitable

 

[twenty02]

Wait just a min., you go to "business leadership" conferences or are forced to … how perfectly gay

Wouldn't worry about it..... pretty postive you'll never have a need to attend, even if you get off the fry line someday.

 

[snarlcakes]

I agree with everything but the “accept it” part. To whatever degree I ever did accept it, I no longer am. I think it has been thoroughly discredited and must be fought. The people who perpetuate it need to be shamed.

It’s the reason our program has been stuck in the doldrums for decades, through a number of coaches and ADs. Why should anybody accept that?

I agree with you, but the fanboys of the world run the administration now. The standards have dropped and the truth is most fans would be happy with Purdue type of results. IU basketball use to be about excellence and greatness. Not now. The notion that Archie was some great hire tells you all you need to know about IU’s standards and the current fanbase. Enjoy your Disney experience.

 

[abraxis]

The IU leadership said that Knight (or any other coach) would no longer be permitted to engage in boorish and embarrassing behavior with impunity, and that winning and following the rules were not acceptable excuses for choosing to not conduct oneself appropriately. Knight ran roughshod over those tenets for nearly three decades and believed he could behave as he chose. Further, he believed, with good reason, that he was not accountable to anyone at IU for his actions. IU finally had enough. It was really that simple.

I accept your first statement as truth, but also think I recall a specific claim by the president to make a more concerted effort in creating IU as a reputable academic institution over any other facet of the university. Coming on the heels of Knight’s firing, it was understood to mean basketball. Reading the remainder of your post made me think of today’s politics with people believing what they want to believe.

 

[hondo314]

I agree with you, but the fanboys of the world run the administration now. The standards have dropped and the truth is most fans would be happy with Purdue type of results. IU basketball use to be about excellence and greatness. Not now. The notion that Archie was some great hire tells you all you need to know about IU’s standards and the current fanbase. Enjoy your Disney experience.

not saying your wrong but could you point out actual examples of admins and fans (lol) lowering their standards? Please, just one. Or is this something you just like to say when your feelz are mixed up?

 

[Birnk403]

I accept your first statement as truth, but also think I recall a specific claim by the president to make a more concerted effort in creating IU as a reputable academic institution over any other facet of the university. Coming on the heels of Knight’s firing, it was understood to mean basketball. Reading the remainder of your post made me think of today’s politics with people believing what they want to believe.

I think you’re being overly creative in your interpretation.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

IU has easily the best tradition in the Big Ten, but it’s debatable if they’ve ever reached the pure advantages level that UNC, Duke and Kentucky enjoy in our current AAU environment ... I think it’s less debatable that IU hasn’t been back at that level for decades, and it’s completely unrealistic to expect it now, especially without at least 5-6 years of building it.

 

[john whan]

I dont see anything changing next year. We may be a little better. I think we have seen all we need to see from archie but he likely gets a last lame duck season.

I would like to move on but I think you are right

 

[twenty02]

IU has easily the best tradition in the Big Ten, but it’s debatable if they’ve ever reached the pure advantages level that UNC, Duke and Kentucky enjoy in our current AAU environment ... I think it’s less debatable that IU hasn’t been back at that level for decades, and it’s completely unrealistic to expect it now, especially without at least 5-6 years of building it.

That really never occurred.... Indiana was blessed with one of the greatest basketball coaches in college history. But the brand was more about the coach than it ever was the program.

UCLA has the same affliction.

Carolina, Kentucky and Kansas are possibly the only programs that have sustained long term success. What happens with Duke when K finally hangs it up will be something to watch. The royalty of college BB for the last generation is getting very old, and there will be massive turnover in the next decade. Izzo, K, Cal, Roy, etc will all shuffle off. Dollar Bill is in a huge mess in Kansas. Lots of realignment coming.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Obviously Archie does not.... and feels the heat to win now.

And how’s that working out for him? When what you’re doing to accomplish your goals isn’t working, you have to change what you’re doing. If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got.

Maybe that sounds a bit Zig Ziglarish. Hell, maybe it even was Zig Ziglar. I don’t really care who first said it...it’s absolutely true.

And, FTR, I don’t think Archie feels any heat to win now. I wouldn’t if I were him. He has all the backing he needs to continue putting crappy teams on the floor for the foreseeable future without anything in the way of negative consequences.

He even has the AD timing his own retirement in a way that protects his accountability-free livelihood for at least another year.

 

[abraxis]

I think you’re being overly creative in your interpretation.

I guess the bottom line is that people believe what they want to believe...always have, always do, and always will. Let me give you an example. I equate Myles Brand with that of an ass hole (visualize tightly wound sphincter muscle here, if you will). Someone even wrote a book about it, “As A Man Thinketh” (so it is).