ADVERTISEMENT

another elementary school shooting

Does that material really stop a .223 round at 3200 FPS? I have my doubts. But even if it stopped penetration, I would think the impact would be lethal.

It obviously depends on the rounds and power but google unequal technologies and check out their website. I've seen it demonstrated
 
Correct, but the NRA's stance is that every one of your suggestions (other than perhaps beefing up school security) is an assault on the second amendment. The NRA's stance will be adopted by every bought-and-paid-for politician. It is at least refreshing that you have shown some disagreement (today, anyway) with the monolithic stance of the GOP/NRA.

I was looking up the second. At the time of the Constitution, it was illegal to store a loaded firearm in Boston. Clearly, that would have been known and constitutional, yet I don't think we would think of it that way today.

In discussing public carry, I found some interesting info out in the site below. In Heller, Scalia said he was using a GA Supreme Court decision in 1846 to bolster the claim that the founders intended for public carry. Of course in doing so he ignored northern states that did NOT allow public carry unless one showed a reason. In fact in some northern states if you carried a weapon and it caused fear in someone else, you could be charged. Yet Scalia didn't seem to think that was part of originalism, and hence much of my disdain for originalism. Too many Originalists seek out only that which supports their beliefs and disregard the rest (not all).

... In other words, the act of traveling armed in a populated place was sufficient under common law to constitute the offense. Accordingly, an 1805 treatise written for justices of the peace in New Jersey made clear that peace officers could, on their own initiative, apply this restriction to a man traveling armed “though he may not have threatened any person in particular, or committed any particular act of violence.”50 Similarly, other early American versions of the Statute of Northampton omitted any mention of “terror.” North Carolina’s statute, for example, stated that “no man great nor small [shall] go nor ride armed by night nor day, in fairs, markets, nor in the presence of the King’s Justices, or other ministers, nor in no part elsewhere.”51 By its plain terms the North Carolina prohibition applied categorically, regardless of any “intent to terrorize.”​

But we accepted ONLY Georgia's law, a state which allowed public carry because of the southern paranoia of servile insurrection. It seems clear that the common wisdom of the state of New Jersey at the time of the Constitution was not in agreement with what we say originalism means.

 
You don’t. You want a gun? Here’s the licensing process. It involves a lengthy background investigation.

I don’t think thousands of kids want to own guns.
Really you don't? Wow you are really out of touch . You think out of the whole country ony a few hundred''kids'' want to own guns? Ever heard of hunting?
 
It obviously depends on the rounds and power but google unequal technologies and check out their website. I've seen it demonstrated
They sell a ballistic vest for $399, a Lacrosse vest for $150. They may be the same thing, they can just get more for calling it ballistic. Or maybe they aren't. If they are the same, maybe we need to wonder if we need kevlar lacrosse vests (not to mention, do we need lacrosse)?
 
They sell a ballistic vest for $399, a Lacrosse vest for $150. They may be the same thing, they can just get more for calling it ballistic. Or maybe they aren't. If they are the same, maybe we need to wonder if we need kevlar lacrosse vests (not to mention, do we need lacrosse)?
Yes the difference is typically the audience/consumer and the ballistic products will be shaped differently (molds) and a little thicker. But my broader point is that more and more sports protection material is just that strong.

Lol re Lacrosse.

And as a PSA their backpack inserts are great for kids. Sad there's such a thing. Kids today have a lot more to deal with than our generation it seems.
 
It’s also probably time our LEOs carry a semi auto long gun in every squad car and are highly trained on it.
Before everybody comes at me, hear me out.

Apparently the police engaged the shooter outside the school but failed to take him down. Now, I'm sure he wrecked the car and fled pretty quickly, but the most recent thing I heard was they got shots off.

To your point about highly trained....would more marksmanship or combat/tactical training put the police in a better position to succeed in the engagement.

Again, the story is pretty loose right now but I do have to wonder how the police missed. How many shots did they get off?

I have zero combat experience and I believe you've noted nobody knows what they will do once bullets fly so I'm not blaming them just wondering if we're failing by not focusing at least some training for regular police on situations like this.
 
You don’t. You want a gun? Here’s the licensing process. It involves a lengthy background investigation.

I don’t think thousands of kids want to own guns.
Doesn't this at least raise the question of, "How old should you be be for you can legally own a firearm, or at least own certain types of firearms?" Unless, an eighteen year old is in the military, why does he need to possess an assault rifle or a similar type of weapon? Signed, Just Curious.
 
Correct, but the NRA's stance is that every one of those suggestions (other than perhaps beefing up school security) is an assault on the second amendment. The NRA's stance will be adopted by every bought-and-paid-for politician. It is at least refreshing that you have shown some disagreement (today, anyway) with the monolithic stance of the GOP/NRA.
Today anyway? I’ve held pretty much the same position on guns for years. You need to either pay attention, stop the stereotyping, or both.
 
Doesn't this at least raise the question of, "How old should you be be for you can legally own a firearm, or at least own certain types of firearms?" Unless, an eighteen year old is in the military, why does he need to possess an assault rifle or a similar type of weapon? Signed, Just Curious.
Absolutely. But again, that will be fought tooth and nail.

Hell, shouldn’t we ask why a civilian should be able to buy a firearm that out guns law enforcement? These weapons allow untrained users to commit quick and decisive mass murders. The number and magnitude of which that only happen in the US.
 
The second amendment is not the problem. The problem is those who use it as a moral imperative and those who see it as a problem. Everything Ranger and I have suggested does not have a second amendment issue.

I think immunity violates the 7th Amendment, but the so-called constitutional conservatives never mention that.
I think the language of it could be tweaked to recognize that the militia and the right to bear arms should be well regulated; however, all they had in 1789 were flintlocks, which were single shot arms nothing to really worry could result in mass murder.

How were the founding fathers supposed to realize that we would have our present type of guns?
 
Today anyway? I’ve held pretty much the same position on guns for years. You need to either pay attention, stop the stereotyping, or both.
I have not been around here long enough to know that, so I apologize.

We will see tough talk today from people like the Republican governor of Texas. Then after a few stern conversations with NRA representatives, his talk will change, next week. That's despicable. I am glad that you are not in that camp, and (once again) I apologize.

How do we make your suggestions as palatable to GOP politicians as they are, inherently, to the American public at large?
 
Today anyway? I’ve held pretty much the same position on guns for years. You need to either pay attention, stop the stereotyping, or both.

You consistently denigrate and disparage anything that isn't on your list. It's not surprising people are surprised that you support any measures at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411
Late last summer we had a spate of kids shooting kids in aurora Colorado. The community held meetings to figure that out. The common message was homes with significant domestic violence. Domestic violence is almost always a product of drugs and alcohol. That is a place to start.
Absolutely agree. Women are often killed by their husbands or partners with guns after multiple domestic violence incidents.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: TommyCracker
I think the language of it could be tweaked to recognize that the militia and the right to bear arms should be well regulated; however, all they had in 1789 were flintlocks, which were single shot arms nothing to really worry could result in mass murder.

How were the founding fathers supposed to realize that we would have our present type of guns?
The founding fathers owned slaves, they were racist.
 
Doesn't this at least raise the question of, "How old should you be be for you can legally own a firearm, or at least own certain types of firearms?" Unless, an eighteen year old is in the military, why does he need to possess an assault rifle or a similar type of weapon? Signed, Just Curious.
Do we need to rethink completely what we consider an adult? I think there are some pretty compelling arguments that we treat 18 year olds as an adult in almost every other instance of the law except for drinking. This would be adding another exception. To me, they are adults or they are not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcmurtry66
Really you don't? Wow you are really out of touch . You think out of the whole country ony a few hundred''kids'' want to own guns? Ever heard of hunting?
I wasn't much of a hunter but really wanted guns as a kid. I just liked to shoot guns. Every weekend when I'm out in the country I hear people blazing away target practicing. I'm to cheap to want to pay for the shells or I probably would too.
 
Some of those things will require the left to act. The right has been clamoring for better efforts to curb mental illness for years and the left won’t budge. The left’s tech titans need to be held accountable for the disasters they’ve created online. Kids’ mental health is terrible and overly aggressive COVID lockdowns, isolation and social media is a large component of fueling the fire.
What are the right’s solutions to curb mental illness? I was thinking about this last night. It’s been decades since many of the facilities have been closed . I agree it’s a huge issue but can’t even fathom where to begin
 
Explain how the Second Amendment logically prevents government from strictly restricting wide open manufacture, sale and ownership of semiautomatic assault rifles with large magazines (which didn't exist when the Second Amendment became law in 1789) but doesn't prohibit government from imposing strict restrictions on manufacture, sale and ownership of cannons (which did exist in 1789).
The government(English) didn’t either. You answered.
 
Correct, but the NRA's stance is that every one of those suggestions (other than perhaps beefing up school security) is an assault on the second amendment. The NRA's stance will be adopted by every bought-and-paid-for politician. It is at least refreshing that you have shown some disagreement (today, anyway) with the monolithic stance of the GOP/NRA.
The NRA is a dying ferret. It’s the elected officials that are terrified of losing votes that matters. And that’s on the left too.

 
What are the right’s solutions to curb mental illness? I was thinking about this last night. It’s been decades since many of the facilities have been closed . I agree it’s a huge issue but can’t even fathom where to begin
Indiana is getting ahead of that. My brother in law just finished a brand new state of the art state funded mental health hospital. This red state is acknowledging the problem. This isn’t as cut and dried right vs left argument. This government has been treating symptoms not the problem. The guns are a problem but they are just a symptom. Let’s just stop with all the finger pointing. It’s an old ass argument. As soon as I hear those damn libs or this crazy righties…I zone out.
 
Nuts are a big issue. But not just with guns. Nuts push people off of the subway platform into the path of a train. We seem to produce nuts. It begins in elementary school. Kids who don’t have stable families are very vulnerable. I think schools fail vulnerable boys and the problem is getting worse.

I don’t know how we keep nut jobs separated from guns. I’d start with simply taking ultra-hazardous guns out of commerce. I’m talking about semi-autos with high velocity ammo.
Not to go off on a tangent, but it’s one of the reasons teachers absolutely must teach some values, SEL, etc. Those that are not getting it at home , must get it at school or they won’t have it anywhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TommyCracker
You need to talk to Reagan about the mental hospitals.

Are we back to this again? He may have been wrong, but deinstitutionalization began under LBJ

excerpt_chart.gif
 
There are no “solutions” - that’s simplistic thinking. There are mitigation steps that can be taken.
  • Outside of provable exceptions, forbid home storage of high powered semi-auto long rifles. Able to keep them at a range for target practice and plinking. Amnesty period and then they are illegal to have at your house without the exception (eg occupational use, rancher, farmer, etc).

  • Hotlines to report to local authorities the people that just don’t seem “right” and have access to firearms. Authorities investigate and their investigations and decisions have teeth.

  • Full background checks and rechecks upon expiration (five years?) on gun owners.

  • Hardened schools using state or federal money. LEO at every school.

  • full withdrawal of immunity from gun manufacturers and FFL brokers
These are a few mitigation ideas. Pick what you want.
On a board where people argue about whether the sky is blue or whose fault it is that it's blue or whatever, I think things like this and some other suggestions would be overwhelmingly accepted.

I think the same would be true for the general public.

So why aren't things like this happening????
 
Indiana is getting ahead of that. My brother in law just finished a brand new state of the art state funded mental health hospital. This red state is acknowledging the problem. This isn’t as cut and dried right vs left argument. This government has been treating symptoms not the problem. The guns are a problem but they are just a symptom. Let’s just stop with all the finger pointing. It’s an old ass argument. As soon as I hear those damn libs or this crazy righties…I zone out.
That’s good news.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Victorbmyboy
Darrell Brooks used a vehicle. Others use knives.

The larger problem is society. We systematically degrade families. Most of these shooters are loners, outcasts, have no adult male influence, are from dysfunctional homes and angry. Youth suicide is at an all time high. Youth mental health issues are brushed aside. Drugs are all over the place. Too many see government as a surrogate loving family. I think it’s reasonable to assume that Remos was so angry and distraught that he decided to end his life while making others feel like him.

There will most certainly be politicized calls for gun control, hard school defenses, armed school staff, and other bandaids. None of that will be very effective. We have a systematic social problem and we can’t hide that fact with the political racial and identity diversionary side shows that dominates education. .

Every kid has a mom and a dad. That’s inarguable. We need to develop, support, and nurture that relationship.
Partially true, but these issues are not isolated to the US. Unfortunately, f’d up gun culture is isolated to the US for the most part.

What a mess. These threads and this entire discussion have become futile. It’s the same people on both sides saying the same things.
 
In a way you are correct. More people will die from gunshots in Chicago in a couple of weeks than died in the school. Nobody gives a shit because they are blacks shooting blacks who have no home life anyway. But kill a kid in school who has loving family and we go ape.

Shithole has many forms.

False equivalence
 
  • Like
Reactions: TommyCracker
Before everybody comes at me, hear me out.

Apparently the police engaged the shooter outside the school but failed to take him down. Now, I'm sure he wrecked the car and fled pretty quickly, but the most recent thing I heard was they got shots off.

To your point about highly trained....would more marksmanship or combat/tactical training put the police in a better position to succeed in the engagement.

Again, the story is pretty loose right now but I do have to wonder how the police missed. How many shots did they get off?

I have zero combat experience and I believe you've noted nobody knows what they will do once bullets fly so I'm not blaming them just wondering if we're failing by not focusing at least some training for regular police on situations like this.

I haven't read much of the details but if there were bystanders in the area outside the school, then they may have been trying to be extra careful where they shot so as to make sure the only possible person to get hit would be the target.
 
I haven't read much of the details but if there were bystanders in the area outside the school, then they may have been trying to be extra careful where they shot so as to make sure the only possible person to get hit would be the target.
Good point
 
This hits home. My grandfather was a brilliant man that suffered from terrible mental illness. Lithium was a godsend to him. It’s unreal the lack of mental health institutions in this country.

To be clear, this topic is wildly complex. My sense is that patients still have choice now, whereas they didn't back in the first half of the 20th Century. There are pros and cons for both. Just as there is between the massive shift away from inpatient towards outpatient or in-home services.
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT