another elementary school shooting

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

There in lies the main problem. Is it mental illness or just the fact that a lot of the young use emotion to make decisions rather than reason and rational thought? In other words, guns and teenagers, like drinking and driving, don't mix.

Raise the age to 21. No questions asked.

 

[outside shooter]

I’ve seen the same reports and I think we’ll find out that local PD wasn’t aggressive enough in getting into that school. If they could engage him outside they should be able to catch up to him quickly.

I'm also curious to understand how he got inside so easily. Years ago when my daughter or son would forget and leave something at home and I'd run it to the school office (public school. mind you), the buzz in security process, sign in, get approved to talk to somebody, talk to somebody etc., would take about 15 minutes.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I'm also curious to understand how he got inside so easily. Years ago when my daughter or son would forget and leave something at home and I'd run it to the school office (public school. mind you), the buzz in security process, sign in, get approved to talk to somebody, talk to somebody etc., would take about 15 minutes.

Our school is locked all day too but the outside doors are made of glass. They could easily be shot through - unless they’re ballistic but I doubt they are. Schools need a bit of hardening unfortunately.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I asked the question above and didn't really see an answer. Would letting some fist fights occur without the zero tolerance thing, allow for a pressure valve release? I mean, there should be a punishment involved, but it should not be throwing the kid out of school. Seems like in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and some of the 80's that you had the opportunity to punch a bully in the mouth. Yeah, break up the fights, but some of the shit talking that occurs online would dry up a bit if I knew I could punch you in the nose and not have it turn into a capital offense.

I linked an article a couple of years ago, a high school kid got into a normal school fistfight. He was 18 and changed as an adult with assault. The author of the story discussed how that pretty much sent him spiraling into gangs where he had not been involved, and when he was killed in a gang shooting his little brother joined up to seek revenge. All because there was a belief that being tough on youthful indiscretion would weaken gang influence.

So yes, I think you are correct.

 

[Ohio Guy]

That’s a scary ass list. Should be the safest place on the planet.

It is scary.

And it’s only the list of school shootings. There are a lot of other mass shootings outside those perimeters

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Calif could soon have a statute that allows suits against social media platforms on behalf of kids who are addicted

I mean, California could **** anything up, so I won’t be holding my breath.

 

[Crayfish57]

No. Center mass per usual. Getting hit with long gun ammo - even if wearing a vest that can stop it - will still knock someone down. It’s like getting kicked really effing hard.

I admit no knowledge on that topic. It would seem and especially a couple shots quickly it would have to knock you down/stun and still hurt like hell.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Our school is locked all day too but the outside doors are made of glass. They could easily be shot through - unless they’re ballistic but I doubt they are. Schools need a bit of hardening unfortunately.

Safe rooms and armed guards. Not just thrown in. Need to have monthly drills too.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Calif has a bill in the works. Social media is awful. A kid bullied has no escape. Used to come home and be free but not anymore. A radicalized kid can find a hate group for reinforcement. On and and on

Someone who knew the murderer in school says he was bullied, his family was poor and he didn't wear the same clothes everyone else did and wore eyeliner.

TX school shooter was bullied at school because of the clothes he wore

The unidentified friend said Ramos began showing up to class less and less from the bullying and 'slowly dropped out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course, bullying doesn't come close to excusing the killing little kids. If nothing else, let's teach kids getting bullied martial arts so they can take it to the people doing the bullying in non-lethal ways.

I do think where social media really hurts is people like him find other people like him and they discuss ways of getting back. It makes them feel their problem is bigger with no way out. What they don't realize is that bullying tends to end after high school, there is an exit.

 

[larsIU]

Would greatly depend on the teacher and i realize this isnt the norm. I had a 5th grade teacher who I ended up working for thru HS as he did lawn work on the side, Anyway he was a Marine before becoming a teacher . There would have to be some good training and very selective. I'm sure he would have been a good one to have in a situation. Then it gets to where does the teacher keep the gun? Shoulder holster which is not a good look, locked in a very secure place? Perhaps it might be better to look at maintenance personel to get some training in a what if scenario?

Something like air marshals maybe?

 

[Crayfish57]

Raise the age to 21. No questions asked.

No problem with that. If dad's want to supervise their kids with guns they own for hunting at earlier ages fine. Having a 22 rifle and a shotgun is one thing vs high tech weaponry. I still think though its more the mental health issue of the perps.

 

[Crayfish57]

Safe rooms and armed guards. Not just thrown in. Need to have monthly drills too.

Yes as I recall fire drills and Tornado drills and it would seem this happens more than either of the others anymore.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Someone who knew the murderer in school says he was bullied, his family was poor and he didn't wear the same clothes everyone else did and wore eyeliner.

TX school shooter was bullied at school because of the clothes he wore

The unidentified friend said Ramos began showing up to class less and less from the bullying and 'slowly dropped out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course, bullying doesn't come close to excusing the killing little kids. If nothing else, let's teach kids getting bullied martial arts so they can take it to the people doing the bullying in non-lethal ways.

I do think where social media really hurts is people like him find other people like him and they discuss ways of getting back. It makes them feel their problem is bigger with no way out. What they don't realize is that bullying tends to end after high school, there is an exit.

Very sad and so very true. Life is long. They just can't see far enough ahead. Same with youth suicides

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

No problem with that. If dad's want to supervise their kids with guns they own for hunting at earlier ages fine. Having a 22 rifle and a shotgun is one thing vs high tech weaponry. I still think though its more the mental health issue of the perps.

Both can be true. We can recognize these acts demonstrate uncontrolled severe mental illness and at same time point out that we shouldn’t have access to this type of weaponry.

 

[Crayfish57]

I linked an article a couple of years ago, a high school kid got into a normal school fistfight. He was 18 and changed as an adult with assault. The author of the story discussed how that pretty much sent him spiraling into gangs where he had not been involved, and when he was killed in a gang shooting his little brother joined up to seek revenge. All because there was a belief that being tough on youthful indiscretion would weaken gang influence.

So yes, I think you are correct.

I was never in any fights but unless it is totally out of hand vs a couple kids that dont like each other taking a few swings, it would be much better dealt with in house. I remember people getting suspended for minor skirmishes

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Someone who knew the murderer in school says he was bullied, his family was poor and he didn't wear the same clothes everyone else did and wore eyeliner.

TX school shooter was bullied at school because of the clothes he wore

The unidentified friend said Ramos began showing up to class less and less from the bullying and 'slowly dropped out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course, bullying doesn't come close to excusing the killing little kids. If nothing else, let's teach kids getting bullied martial arts so they can take it to the people doing the bullying in non-lethal ways.

I do think where social media really hurts is people like him find other people like him and they discuss ways of getting back. It makes them feel their problem is bigger with no way out. What they don't realize is that bullying tends to end after high school, there is an exit.

He needed institutionalized help. Period. And the FFL who sold him those guns should be out of business - under the way the laws should work.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Our school is locked all day too but the outside doors are made of glass. They could easily be shot through - unless they’re ballistic but I doubt they are. Schools need a bit of hardening unfortunately.

I am curious, could we pass a school hardening bill providing support (and perhaps expertise)? Or are we going to leave this up to school districts that don't necessarily have a lot of money?

I have no problem taking money out of the existing infrastructure bill, there have to be lower priorities in there.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Someone who knew the murderer in school says he was bullied, his family was poor and he didn't wear the same clothes everyone else did and wore eyeliner.

TX school shooter was bullied at school because of the clothes he wore

The unidentified friend said Ramos began showing up to class less and less from the bullying and 'slowly dropped out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course, bullying doesn't come close to excusing the killing little kids. If nothing else, let's teach kids getting bullied martial arts so they can take it to the people doing the bullying in non-lethal ways.

I do think where social media really hurts is people like him find other people like him and they discuss ways of getting back. It makes them feel their problem is bigger with no way out. What they don't realize is that bullying tends to end after high school, there is an exit.

Bullying is still as big a problem as it’s ever been. They have bully boxes at my sons school. Doesn’t work. My son was getting bullied. We went down every avenue. I finally told him to knock his ass down a notch. He was afraid of getting in trouble. I told him to let me worry about that. He put that kid in the dirt a couple of times. Problem solved. Wasn’t our first choice and shouldn’t have come to that but it did.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

He needed institutionalized help. Period. And the FFL who sold him those guns should be out of business - under the way the laws should work.

The FFL didn’t do anything wrong.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Very sad and so very true. Life is long. They just can't see far enough ahead. Same with youth suicides

He was living with grandma and grandpa because he had a falling out with his mom. No mention of dad. He shoots grandma. Body armor suggests he prepared for his rampage. Grandpa didn't know the kid bought the guns. This kid was made what he was well before yesterday. As usual, so many failures along the way. I'd like to interview the gun shop owner and get a clue about how that conversation went around the transaction. Those guns are not cheap, neaither is the ammo.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Bullying is still as big a problem as it’s ever been. They have bully boxes at my sons school. Doesn’t work. My son was getting bullied. We went down every avenue. I finally told him to knock his ass down a notch. He was afraid of getting in trouble. I told him to let me worry about that. He put that kid in the dirt a couple of times. Problem solved. Wasn’t our first choice and shouldn’t have come to that but it did.

That’s what it has to come to every time. The universe demands it.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Every school needs to be capable of denying entry to anyone and everyone immediately.

This sicko should never have been inside the building - gun or no gun.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

That’s what it has to come to every time. The universe demands it.

No it doesn’t. It’s dumb to blame them when it’s the federal background checks are purged. The FFL can only go off the info given. They aren’t selling illegally in almost every instance. Very very rare. But the Federal government has dropped the ball in almost every instance regardless of party.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

The FFL didn’t do anything wrong.

I agree - and that’s the problem. FFLs are blind merchants and that needs to change. They sell weapons of mass destruction to strangers based on a theoretical constitutional right and they sleep soundly in their beds at night.

If FFLs want to keep selling this hardware, they lose immunity in my world.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

No it doesn’t. It’s dumb to blame them when it’s the federal background checks are purged. The FFL can only go off the info given. They aren’t selling illegally in almost every instance. Very very rare. But the Federal government has dropped the ball in almost every instance regardless of party.

You’re responding to the wrong response. This was in response to bullying and beating up the bully.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

As usual, so many failures along the way. I'd like to interview the gun shop owner and get a clue about how that conversation went around the transaction. Those guns are not cheap, neaither is the ammo.

I was just reading that a doctor can be sued if a patient gets an opioid addiction and the doctor did not ask the patient about addiction issues and the like:

• Failure to consider the patient’s history— Doctors must carefully assess the risks and benefits of prescribing opioids to any individual who has a history of past opioid use, drug abuse, overdoses, or addiction. These behaviors can indicate that the prescription could reasonably be expected to cause the patient more harm than good. Doctors who fail to inquire about or otherwise consider these factors before prescribing for opioids could be found negligent.

I wonder if an 18-year-old coming in eager to buy higher-powered weaponry shouldn't trigger some questions from the gun store owner.

 

[bawlmer]

Calif could soon have a statute that allows suits against social media platforms on behalf of kids who are addicted

As soon as there is a scientific link between shooter video games and these massacres (almost certainly there is for someone with the inclination anyway) they will be sued. Everyone but gun and ammo manufacturers.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I was just reading that a doctor can be sued if a patient gets an opioid addiction and the doctor did not ask the patient about addiction issues and the like:

• Failure to consider the patient’s history— Doctors must carefully assess the risks and benefits of prescribing opioids to any individual who has a history of past opioid use, drug abuse, overdoses, or addiction. These behaviors can indicate that the prescription could reasonably be expected to cause the patient more harm than good. Doctors who fail to inquire about or otherwise consider these factors before prescribing for opioids could be found negligent.

I wonder if an 18-year-old coming in eager to buy higher-powered weaponry shouldn't trigger some questions from the gun store owner.

It should 100% trigger liability to the gun store owner. But we can make it easier on them too by raising legal age.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

He was living with grandma and grandpa because he had a falling out with his mom. No mention of dad. He shoots grandma. Body armor suggests he prepared for his rampage. Grandpa didn't know the kid bought the guns. This kid was made what he was well before yesterday. As usual, so many failures along the way. I'd like to interview the gun shop owner and get a clue about how that conversation went around the transaction. Those guns are not cheap, neaither is the ammo.

It doesn’t work like that. The adult(not kid) had to input his information on a computer. You don’t get interviewed. His ID has to match and the fbi database clears him. It’s not up to the ffl.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

You’re responding to the wrong response. This was in response to bullying and beating up the bully.

My bad.

 

[mcmurtry66]

As soon as there is a scientific link between shooter video games and these massacres (almost certainly there is for someone with the inclination anyway) they will be sued. Everyone but gun and ammo manufacturers.

But those games are sold worldwide. Is it that kids around the world are similarly triggered but don't have access to guns like here?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

It should 100% trigger liability to the gun store owner. But we can make it easier on them too by raising legal age.

That’s insane. It’s not the FFL job to do the checks. It’s the FBI.the FBI says yay or nay. Not the FFL.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

That’s insane. It’s not the FFL job to do the checks. It’s the FBI.the FBI says yay or nay. Not the FFL.

You’re completely missing the point. You’re examining it at the current law’s perspective - which clearly isn’t working.

These weapons don’t belong in civilian hands. Just because the FBI software says it’s ok to sell to someone doesn’t mean the FFL has to. They can make a judgment call based on someone’s temperament and more importantly decide if they want to sell these weapons and be held liable if their customer goes on a rampage.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Our school is locked all day too but the outside doors are made of glass. They could easily be shot through - unless they’re ballistic but I doubt they are. Schools need a bit of hardening unfortunately.

Grocery stores
Movie theaters
Concert venues
Churches
Warehouses

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Grocery stores
Movie theaters
Concert venues
Churches
Warehouses

Those are at least full of adults that can do something theoretically.

 

[larsIU]

That’s insane. It’s not the FFL job to do the checks. It’s the FBI.the FBI says yay or nay. Not the FFL.

If you aren't aware, look up dram shop laws and how they've become more and more strict.

No, the bartender or liquor store owner didn't get in a vehicle hammered and cross the center line killing a family of 4. But he sold that person the liquor. And if he did it when that person was already drunk, he's in a shitload of trouble.

The decision to sell is on the bar and they are getting stricter and stricter every year

We can, and should, institute similar liability regs for FFLs

 

[Crayfish57]

Very sad and so very true. Life is long. They just can't see far enough ahead. Same with youth suicides

I remember and this is late 70s early 80s . My mom made all my clothes. ALL of them , we weren't poor , she had been a home economics teacher when that was still a thing. It was mostly because mom liked to sew and i had no choice. I went to a pretty middle class school system. I remember one day when the stitches on home made jeans gave out. Luckily I had a home made flannel shirt over a T shirt I could wrap around the blow out. By my freshman yr I finally got Wranglers with the big leather patch as Levis were a bit more, got them by soph yr. I was self conscious for sure and took some heat but never thought about a shooting spree. It would seem mental health needs addressed by schools counselors and maybe focused more on than pushing everyone in to college. Maybe if some one told the guy if he was being bullied, and no excuse for that, for wearing eyeliner that maybe he should quit wearing eyeliner? I would say 90% of my school lived in a sub division, I was in the 10% that didnt . I knew it and felt it sometimes and it probably hardened me up for life in the real world.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

You’re completely missing the point. You’re examining it at the current law’s perspective - which clearly isn’t working.

These weapons don’t belong in civilian hands. Just because the FBI software says it’s ok to sell to someone doesn’t mean the FFL has to. They can make a judgment call based on someone’s temperament and more importantly decide if they want to sell these weapons and be held liable if their customer goes on a rampage.

Sure. Discriminate against people. Its not FFL issue it’s a government issue. Period. FFLs are very wary anyway. They aren’t trained to disseminate a normal person from a crazed lunatic. Hell trained professionals have a tough time with that. That’s just stupid to blame the FFL.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I remember and this is late 70s early 80s . My mom made all my clothes. ALL of them , we weren't poor , she had been a home economics teacher when that was still a thing. It was mostly because mom liked to sew and i had no choice. I went to a pretty middle class school system. I remember one day when the stitches on home made jeans gave out. Luckily I had a home made flannel shirt over a T shirt I could wrap around the blow out. By my freshman yr I finally got Wranglers with the big leather patch as Levis were a bit more, got them by soph yr. I was self conscious for sure and took some heat but never thought about a shooting spree. It would seem mental health needs addressed by schools counselors and maybe focused more on than pushing everyone in to college. Maybe if some one told the guy if he was being bullied, and no excuse for that, for wearing eyeliner that maybe he should quit wearing eyeliner? I would say 90% of my school lived in a sub division, I was in the 10% that didnt . I knew it and felt it sometimes and it probably hardened me up for life in the real world.

Don't teachers see it and flag these kids. I don't know. Maybe teachers are already stretched thin. Tired. Asked to do too much. Who knows.

 

[bawlmer]

Sure. Discriminate against people. Its not FFL issue it’s a government issue. Period. FFLs are very wary anyway. They aren’t trained to disseminate a normal person from a crazed lunatic. Hell trained professionals have a tough time with that. That’s just stupid to blame the FFL.

Don't be naive. I was just reading about a lawsuit against a gun shop who sold ammo to a guy using his victim's credit card - a woman! Case was dismissed in part due to the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

Court of Appeals Holds No Recognized Cause of Action Exists Under Missouri Law Against Gun Shop Owners for Sale of a Non-Defective Lawful Product

In an opinion issued July 16, 2013, the Western District of the Missouri Court of Appeals declined to extend what would have amounted to dram shop-type liability to a gun shop that sold ammunition and magazines to a purchaser who used a stolen credit card and later shot and killed two individuals.

www.bscr-law.com