A New Birth Of Freedom - Do We Need One?

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

CSPAN3 is running the 2023 Gettysburg College Civil Institute programs.

The linked presentation arises from a well—known book by T. Harry Williams by the same name - Lincoln and His Generals. It generally talks about the relationship with his generals, but among other things, it discusses the idea of Lincoln, then Grant, that you could not win the win war easily, and could not save the Union by just winning the War. You had to crush everything meant by secession, and it’s cause. Only complete military victory AND complete emancipation would give the nation a shot at The New Birth of Freedom that Lincoln posited in the Gettysburg Address.

Lincoln and His Generals

Historians debated the strengths and weaknesses of Union Generals such as George McClellan, Ulysses Grant, Ambrose Burnside, and Joseph Hooker, and how they each interacted with their commander-in-chief Abraham Lincoln. This program was part of Gettysburg College's 2023 Civil War Institute...

www.c-span.org

Are we so polarized now that we need another new birth of freedom? A return to one? A new path to a re-United States? A new attempt to make a nation conceived in liberty long endure?

Stuff like this can make you think about stuff like that.

Again, not for the sound-bite class.

 

[Bloom.]

CSPAN3 is running the 2023 Gettysburg College Civil Institute programs.

The linked presentation arises from a well—known book by T. Harry Williams by the same name - Lincoln and His Generals. It generally talks about the relationship with his generals, but among other things, it discusses the idea of Lincoln, then Grant, that you could not win the win war easily, and could not save the Union by just winning the War. You had to crush everything meant by secession, and it’s cause. Only complete military victory AND complete emancipation would give the nation a shot at The New Birth of Freedom that Lincoln posited in the Gettysburg Address.

Lincoln and His Generals

Historians debated the strengths and weaknesses of Union Generals such as George McClellan, Ulysses Grant, Ambrose Burnside, and Joseph Hooker, and how they each interacted with their commander-in-chief Abraham Lincoln. This program was part of Gettysburg College's 2023 Civil War Institute...

www.c-span.org

Are we so polarized now that we need another new birth of freedom? A return to one? A new path to a re-United States? A new attempt to make a nation conceived in liberty long endure?

Stuff like this can make you think about stuff like that.

Again, not for the sound-bite class.

The stakes were 1,000 times higher in the 1860's than what it would be about now.

 

[DANC]

The stakes were 1,000 times higher in the 1860's than what it would be about now.

Small person, small brain.

You going to revoke my posting privileges on this thread, too?

 

[TMFT]

I blame the internet for everything. Selection bias has made it so easy to go down whatever rabbit hole we want and only hear confirming voices.

 

[NPT]

I blame the internet for everything. Selection bias has made it so easy to go down whatever rabbit hole we want and only hear confirming voices.

There is a lot of truth there. There is so much crap out there that you can always find something to support the view you have. It's also made a lot "know it all" people where they tell you how it is when, in fact, it's just their opinion. There's a lot of "brave" people when they behind the keyboard.

 

[Bloom.]

Small person, small brain.

You going to revoke my posting privileges on this thread, too?

I haven't revoked any posting privileges or used topic bans over here. There are other mods on here, and judging by the visible activity, you're getting hit from other mods more than me. If you keep turning every topic you participate in to your Victims Tour, you'll be gone. I suggest you move on and stick to the topics. Tick tock.


BTW...staying on topic, simp, the stakes in the 1860's the preservation of the country and the actual freedom of an entire race vs. the South's need for economic autonomy. Not this BS demagoguery and culture war crap that is going on.

 

[Bloom.]

I blame the internet for everything. Selection bias has made it so easy to go down whatever rabbit hole we want and only hear confirming voices.

And social media has made it worse, unfortunately.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

CSPAN3 is running the 2023 Gettysburg College Civil Institute programs.

The linked presentation arises from a well—known book by T. Harry Williams by the same name - Lincoln and His Generals. It generally talks about the relationship with his generals, but among other things, it discusses the idea of Lincoln, then Grant, that you could not win the win war easily, and could not save the Union by just winning the War. You had to crush everything meant by secession, and it’s cause. Only complete military victory AND complete emancipation would give the nation a shot at The New Birth of Freedom that Lincoln posited in the Gettysburg Address.

Lincoln and His Generals

Historians debated the strengths and weaknesses of Union Generals such as George McClellan, Ulysses Grant, Ambrose Burnside, and Joseph Hooker, and how they each interacted with their commander-in-chief Abraham Lincoln. This program was part of Gettysburg College's 2023 Civil War Institute...

www.c-span.org

Are we so polarized now that we need another new birth of freedom? A return to one? A new path to a re-United States? A new attempt to make a nation conceived in liberty long endure?

Stuff like this can make you think about stuff like that.

Again, not for the sound-bite class.

Sounds like you are suggesring that we make America Great Again.

I tend to agree. We gotta begin in public school and we gotta teach that America for a long list of reasons is a force for good that far exceeds the sum of our warts. Unfortunately people like Howard Zinn and Nicole Hannah-Jones mutate our history in ways that damage our national pride and confidence that Lincoln and others inspired. Whether the damage is irreparable remains to be seen, but the future of the United States IMO is not looking good.

 

[Bloom.]

Sounds like you are suggesring that we make America Great Again.

I tend to agree. We gotta begin in public school and we gotta teach that America for a long list of reasons is a force for good that far exceeds the sum of our warts. Unfortunately people like Howard Zinn and Nicole Hannah-Jones mutate our history in ways that damage our national pride and confidence that Lincoln and others inspired. Whether the damage is irreparable remains to be seen, but the future of the United States IMO is not looking good.

So you don't want history taught?

I'm amused by people who are put off by 1619.
Speaking of things we shouldn't be proud of Manifest Destiny was a sham.


The point is we can still be proud of things we've accomplished, both individually and as groups of people, or even a nation, while still being critical of our past and learning if it's impacting our present. And the problem you have is you don't really have a clue of what is being taught in schools.

It's OK to teach this country committed atrocities before and since its birth. Every country has its sins. It should make you uncomfortable. Hopefully we learn from it.

Bad news for you. It was taught that way in the 80's at least around here.

F*ck MAGA. How about we just stick to normalcy. Care about the little guy and quit self-marginalizing yourself.

 

[DANC]

I haven't revoked any posting privileges or used topic bans over here. There are other mods on here, and judging by the visible activity, you're getting hit from other mods more than me. If you keep turning every topic you participate in to your Victims Tour, you'll be gone. I suggest you move on and stick to the topics. Tick tock.


BTW...staying on topic, simp, the stakes in the 1860's the preservation of the country and the actual freedom of an entire race vs. the South's need for economic autonomy. Not this BS demagoguery and culture war crap that is going on.

Pea brain

 

[mcmurtry66]

Small person, small brain.

You going to revoke my posting privileges on this thread, too?

DANC how many scalps you take yesterday? Ballpark.

 

[DANC]

DANC how many scalps you take yesterday? Ballpark.

How many times do I get to count Bloom?

And does Hickory even count anymore?

I pissed UncleMark off again, so he or Goat are cutting me off threads. Bloom has already deleted posts that made him look stupid. I imagine I'll be following Cray on the permanent bench soon. Then I can start investing the $10 I give this site and start to accumulate some real wealth.

 

[Bloom.]

How many times do I get to count Bloom?

And does Hickory even count anymore?

I pissed UncleMark off again, so he or Goat are cutting me off threads. Bloom has already deleted posts that made him look stupid. I imagine I'll be following Cray on the permanent bench soon. Then I can start investing the $10 I give this site and start to accumulate some real wealth.

So thirsty.

 

[mcmurtry66]

How many times do I get to count Bloom?

And does Hickory even count anymore?

I pissed UncleMark off again, so he or Goat are cutting me off threads. Bloom has already deleted posts that made him look stupid. I imagine I'll be following Cray on the permanent bench soon. Then I can start investing the $10 I give this site and start to accumulate some real wealth.

Mark was deleting my posts too. Trying to put a thumb on the scale. Reduced my take too

 

[DANC]

Mark was deleting my posts too. Trying to put a thumb on the scale. Reduced my take too

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

They want an echo chamber but the dream team turned it into a no spin zone

 

[DANC]

They want an echo chamber but the dream team turned it into a no spin zone

More like a circle jerk.

 

[Bloom.]

They want an echo chamber but the dream team turned it into a no spin zone

He just doesn't want to let it drop, not to mention he's embellishing. He's freely having discussions. He's just not a victim, and it bled across multiple topics this one included where he injected himself whining about it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

More like a circle jerk.

When they delete posts it’s bc they are having a hard time breathing

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm amused by people who are put off by 1619.

This! I’m not put off by “1619”. I’m put off by those like Hannah-Jones who , with a good dose of arrogance, tell students what it means instead of allowing students to think about what it means, The same goes for manifest destiny. Part of thinking about that is what would North America look like without it.

The point is we can still be proud of things we've accomplished, both individually and as groups of people, or even a nation, while still being critical of our past and learning if it's impacting our present.

Of course. But students are not taught to think about that.

And the problem you have is you don't really have a clue of what is being taught in schools.

Thanks for telling me my problem. Unfortunately others are way ahead of you, and do it better. I see every day the effects of what is being taught in school. I see a lot of good stuff in STEM and in skilled labor. The problem is there is not enough of it. I see a lot of pure bullshit in other disciplines that produces a lot of incompetence. There seem to be more of them all the time.

And I know what educrats say they focus on. They are producing a product of national incompetence in many fields.

It's OK to teach this country committed atrocities before and since its birth. Every country has its sins. It should make you uncomfortable. Hopefully we learn from it.

No it should not be taught in ways that make anyone feel uncomfortable. Nor should it be taught in ways that make others feel like victims. This is the reason they are still fighting over issues of hundreds of years ago in many parts of the world.

F*ck MAGA. How about we just stick to normalcy. Care about the little guy and quit self-marginalizing yourself

I have no idea what this means other than you had to squeeze a “F*ck MAGA“ into your post and couldn’t figure out how to do it with style.

 

[Bloom.]

This! I’m not put off by “1619”. I’m put off by those like Hannah-Jones who , with a good dose of arrogance, tell students what it means instead of allowing students to think about what it means, The same goes for manifest destiny. Part of thinking about that is what would North America look like without it.

She wrote a book. She's not a teacher. Books are written from perspectives, most certainly of the author, but depending on the book, the subject.

Of course. But students are not taught to think about that.

Yes they are.

Thanks for telling me my problem. Unfortunately others are way ahead of you, and do it better. I see every day the effects of what is being taught in school. I see a lot of good stuff in STEM and in skilled labor. The problem is there is not enough of it. I see a lot of pure bullshit in other disciplines that produces a lot of incompetence. There seem to be more of them all the time.

And I know what educrats say they focus on. They are producing a product of national incompetence in many fields.

What's funny is most of the attacks on schools are aimed at schools that teach a broad curriculum. They're not focused on small, rural schools that, understandably due to enrollment, don't have broad curricula.

No it should not be taught in ways that make anyone feel uncomfortable. Nor should it be taught in ways that make others feel like victims. This is the reason they are still fighting over issues of hundreds of years ago in many parts of the world.

Why shouldn't we occasionally be uncomfortable with learning?
What are you afraid of?

I have no idea what this means other than you had to squeeze a “F*ck MAGA“ into your post and couldn’t figure out how to do it with style.

Fringe benefit of the concept. No interest in doing it with style.

 

[DANC]

When they delete posts it’s bc they are having a hard time breathing

He says I'm exaggerating. Ask him why he deleted a post where I replied with a FIFY - something that's done all the time here.

Then says he can delete any post he wants because all mods aren't assigned to a forum. So, basically, he's giving a big F YOU to Mark, Goat, NPT, and Stoll (and whoever else may be a mod here).

 

[mcmurtry66]

He says I'm exaggerating. Ask him why he deleted a post where I replied with a FIFY - something that's done all the time here.

Then says he can delete any post he wants because all mods aren't assigned to a forum. So, basically, he's giving a big F YOU to Mark, Goat, NPT, and Stoll (and whoever else may be a mod here).

There’s a two tiered justice system. When they are sucking for air, their losing positions smoked out, they delete, block, and ban. Give it time. They’ll figure out how to hack the reaction scores.

 

[BCCHoosier]

There’s a two tiered justice system. When they are sucking for air, their losing positions smoked out, they delete, block, and ban. Give it time. They’ll figure out how to hack the reaction scores.

You are one of the better posters here. Don't let these guys drag you down.

 

[DANC]

There’s a two tiered justice system. When they are sucking for air, their losing positions smoked out, they delete, block, and ban. Give it time. They’ll figure out how to hack the reaction scores.

Dastardly!

(didn't they already do that?)

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Why shouldn't we occasionally be uncomfortable with learning?

That’s not the point you made. You said US History should make us feel uncomfortable. As if that were an objective of teaching history. Making people react emotionally to history is what perpetuates divisions. In our case it perpetuates racial divisions. I see no value in that.

 

[hoot1]

That’s not the point you made. You said US History should make us feel uncomfortable. As if that were an objective of teaching history. Making people react emotionally to history is what perpetuates divisions. In our case it perpetuates racial divisions. I see no value in that.

A national debate contest several years ago asked the question "Is honesty always the best policy ?".

The winning argument was on the Con side whereby it was argued honesty wasn't always the best policy. Ironically the winner was a minister.

Along the same line of thinking, guess it can be argued being honest about some of our history isn't the best policy.

 

[Bloom.]

That’s not the point you made. You said US History should make us feel uncomfortable.

I didn't say in every instance of every lesson. LOL

 

[Bloom.]

He says I'm exaggerating. Ask him why he deleted a post where I replied with a FIFY - something that's done all the time here.

Then says he can delete any post he wants because all mods aren't assigned to a forum. So, basically, he's giving a big F YOU to Mark, Goat, NPT, and Stoll (and whoever else may be a mod here).

 

[Bloom.]

Dastardly!

(didn't they already do that?)

 

[i'vegotwinners]

That’s not the point you made. You said US History should make us feel uncomfortable. As if that were an objective of teaching history. Making people react emotionally to history is what perpetuates divisions. In our case it perpetuates racial divisions. I see no value in that.

are you saying we should no longer teach the white man's side of history, because it perpetuates racial division?

that said, if US history doesn't make one "uncomfortable", then it isn't being taught honestly.

 

[Bloom.]

Making people react emotionally to history is what perpetuates divisions. In our case it perpetuates racial divisions. I see no value in that.

I see power in emotion in learning history. They were my favorite classes in HS because they made me think and process how I felt about 'things'. Same in Econ and Psych. Emotion can be passion.

You think it's bad to have passion for history?

You just don't like some of the directions it can go, and further, you think it's always being steered away from what you think. That's just not happening. You can't strive for critical thinking and not find fault in some of what has happened. Loved that our teachers didn't really take sides either on social or political issues, other than be respectful and be honest.

I didn't follow that passion academically beyond HS, but those were and still are considered the best classes in HS, at least where I went.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I see power in emotion in learning history. They were my favorite classes in HS because they made me think and process how I felt about 'things'. Same in Econ and Psych. Emotion can be passion.

You think it's bad to have passion for history?

You just don't like some of the directions it can go, and further, you think it's always being steered away from what you think. That's just not happening. You can't strive for critical thinking and not find fault in some of what has happened. Loved that our teachers didn't really take sides either on social or political issues, other than be respectful and be honest.

I didn't follow that passion academically beyond HS, but those were and still are considered the best classes in HS, at least where I went.

Do you believe racism is learned?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

that said, if US history doesn't make one "uncomfortable", then it isn't being taught honestly.

What burdens from the bad parts of our history should we carry with us now? My family escaped religious oppression in the Balkins and emigrated in the early 20th century. Under your theory, should I feel like a victim because of history there or feel uncomfortable because of history here? Very confusing.

In any event if you want to feel uncomfortable with our history, more power to you. That’s your choice. I don’t because I didn’t do anything to cause it. I strongly object to the notion that an honest teaching of history requires discomfort. An honest teaching of history should be emotionally neutral.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

A national debate contest several years ago asked the question "Is honesty always the best policy ?".

The winning argument was on the Con side whereby it was argued honesty wasn't always the best policy. Ironically the winner was a minister.

Along the same line of thinking, guess it can be argued being honest about some of our history isn't the best policy.

Doesn’t that point emphasize that what is honest isn’t necessarily objective? Two people can hold an opinion or view of history in all honesty and come out the opposite of each other.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

What burdens from the bad parts of our history should we carry with us now? My family escaped religious oppression in the Balkins and emigrated in the early 20th century. Under your theory, should I feel like a victim because of history there or feel uncomfortable because of history here? Very confusing.

In any event if you want to feel uncomfortable with our history, more power to you. That’s your choice. I don’t because I didn’t do anything to cause it. I strongly object to the notion that an honest teaching of history requires discomfort. An honest teaching of history should be emotionally neutral.

are you saying we should no longer teach the white man's side of history, because it perpetuates racial division?

that said, if US history doesn't make one "uncomfortable", then it isn't being taught honestly.

your family's history is totally irrelevant, and we both know it.

you should seek mental help.. either by intent or not, you really are a disgusting individual. (but maybe you see that as your job here, or in life).

that said, what an "honest teaching of history" requires, is honesty, and looking to be "emotionally neutral", should have nothing to do with anything.

which we both also fully well know.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You just don't like some of the directions it can go, and further, you think it's always being steered away from what you think. That's just not happening. You can't strive for critical thinking and not find fault in some of what has happened. Loved that our teachers didn't really take sides either on social or political issues, other than be respectful and be honest.

First of all critical thinking is a process of applying a myriad of mental skills to a situation, problem, or circumstance. An objective view of factual history is a problem because history is always subjective. Even history written or documented by participants is subjective.

But on to your larger point, which again includes an assumption of how I think. US history is part of our culture, part of our traditions, part of who we are. The important point is to lay all of it out there in a way that is useful, Teaching history should promote thought, not promote a historical view. Right now, we are obsessed with racial divisions, and in my opinion the divisions are worsening. I think it’s a chicken and egg issue as to whether things like 1619 contribute to present day strife, or explains president day strife. I think the former, But I see the other argument. I don’t advocate for ignoring our racial history. But I do advocate it being taught as history. Slavery is gone. Slave owners are gone. Slaves learning useful skills happened. Some slaves earned enough to buy freedom for themselves and family. Yet, a few weeks ago, you were among those who denied that part of history; and misstated that history in the process.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

your family's history is totally irrelevant, and we both know it.

you should seek mental help.. either by intent or not, you really are a disgusting individual. (but maybe you see that as your job here, or in life).

that said, what an "honest teaching of history" requires, is honesty, and looking to be "emotionally neutral", should have nothing to do with anything.

which we both also fully well know.

I’ll mark you down for history is so clear that honesty permits only one view.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Sounds like you are suggesring that we make America Great Again.

I tend to agree. We gotta begin in public school and we gotta teach that America for a long list of reasons is a force for good that far exceeds the sum of our warts. Unfortunately people like Howard Zinn and Nicole Hannah-Jones mutate our history in ways that damage our national pride and confidence that Lincoln and others inspired. Whether the damage is irreparable remains to be seen, but the future of the United States IMO is not looking good.

I notice you're not actually talking about making America great again. You're talking about teaching that America is and has already been great.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I think it’s a chicken and egg issue as to whether things like 1619 contribute to present day strife, or explains president day strife.

Paging Dr. Freud.