A Conservative Populist Critique of Indiana Governance

[IUCrazy2]

Indiana under Republican Rule: “Pro-Business” Policy Disappoints outside the Sunbelt - American Affairs Journal

Republicans keen to tout the supposed superiority of their preferred economic model often cite booming Sunbelt states like Texas or Tennessee as evidence that it works. They don’t talk as much about less successful red states like Kansas or West Virginia. A look at solid red Indiana and its poor...

americanaffairsjournal.org

This is a long article and it does come from a conservative viewpoint. However, there is quite a bit here to digest that I think would make for interesting discussion because of the populist bent of the article. There are problems mentioned and failures pointed out that liberals will be able to identify with.

I think that some of the upheaval in this country is occurring because our politics are resetting. The article does a decent job on documenting some of that reset.

I don't know, just thought this might lead to some interesting conversation because the way the article is written may lead to some interesting mixing of the traditional "sides" on the forum.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Indiana under Republican Rule: “Pro-Business” Policy Disappoints outside the Sunbelt - American Affairs Journal

Republicans keen to tout the supposed superiority of their preferred economic model often cite booming Sunbelt states like Texas or Tennessee as evidence that it works. They don’t talk as much about less successful red states like Kansas or West Virginia. A look at solid red Indiana and its poor...

americanaffairsjournal.org

This is a long article and it does come from a conservative viewpoint. However, there is quite a bit here to digest that I think would make for interesting discussion because of the populist bent of the article. There are problems mentioned and failures pointed out that liberals will be able to identify with.

I think that some of the upheaval in this country is occurring because our politics are resetting. The article does a decent job on documenting some of that reset.

I don't know, just thought this might lead to some interesting conversation because the way the article is written may lead to some interesting mixing of the traditional "sides" on the forum.

I do not have time to do it justice, but there are good points. One problem in comparing states is the impact of randomness. It has a lot of influence on state economies as well as businesses. That is why I do not put much into people leaving Texas a few years ago and leaving Cali today.

But Indiana has never had it's turn as a destination. It has been stuck in the low side for a long time. That means something.

A book I am reading keeps repeating "not all lines are straight". in my view, liberals too often see more government as the answer, conservatives less government. The reality is it is probably a bell curve and somewhere between anarchy and a totally planned economy is the sweet spot.

I agree with the idea of a more worker centric economy. It too is a bell curve but I think there is almost no doubt Indiana is hard right on business centric.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I do not have time to do it justice, but there are good points. One problem in comparing states is the impact of randomness. It has a lot of influence on state economies as well as businesses. That is why I do not put much into people leaving Texas a few years ago and leaving Cali today.

But Indiana has never had it's turn as a destination. It has been stuck in the low side for a long time. That means something.

A book I am reading keeps repeating "not all lines are straight". in my view, liberals too often see more government as the answer, conservatives less government. The reality is it is probably a bell curve and somewhere between anarchy and a totally planned economy is the sweet spot.

I agree with the idea of a more worker centric economy. It too is a bell curve but I think there is almost no doubt Indiana is hard right on business centric.

I think you kind of touch on some of what I have been coming around to and the article touches on it as well. I see the government somewhat like a referee. The most enjoyable games to me are where the game is well played and they just are not involved as much. We all have a different tolerance for when they are involved too much and when we feel they are not involved enough and quite a bit of that happens to revolve around how the calls are impacting our team.

Economically the GOP has seen businesses as their team. I think there is some merit to arguments made around job creation and things of that nature. However, that should be balanced with the wants and needs of voters. I think you see populist movements on both the right and left because there is a wide swath of both parties who are not having their needs met by the parties they tend to support.

 

[hoot1]

It was an interesting read.

Author sure admires Mitch Daniels. The critique puts too much emphasis on red versus blue states, and conservative versus liberal for my taste. However, the Old North versus the warmer state trend is a spot on analysis.

The suggestion about moving from the focus on aiding the state's employers to helping employees has a nice populist ring to it. But given the occupations of those who makeup the great majority of our state legislators, this shift just isn't going to happen.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think you kind of touch on some of what I have been coming around to and the article touches on it as well. I see the government somewhat like a referee. The most enjoyable games to me are where the game is well played and they just are not involved as much. We all have a different tolerance for when they are involved too much and when we feel they are not involved enough and quite a bit of that happens to revolve around how the calls are impacting our team.

Economically the GOP has seen businesses as their team. I think there is some merit to arguments made around job creation and things of that nature. However, that should be balanced with the wants and needs of voters. I think you see populist movements on both the right and left because there is a wide swath of both parties who are not having their needs met by the parties they tend to support.

As much grief as I give populist movements, some grievances are warranted. The attaching of conspiracies is where I shake my head and roll my eyes.

 

[Cortez88]

Crazy thanks for sharing. I think this critique is one that many Indiana residents would largely agree with regardless of political ideology. I had this very thought with the $125 tax credit. Sure, I’ll take it but I’d rather see it invested back into making the state a better place to live. Some of this is akin to sitting at the dinner table and proudly telling the family that we have a great investment portfolio while we eat beans and wieners.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I do not have time to do it justice, but there are good points. One problem in comparing states is the impact of randomness. It has a lot of influence on state economies as well as businesses. That is why I do not put much into people leaving Texas a few years ago and leaving Cali today.

But Indiana has never had it's turn as a destination. It has been stuck in the low side for a long time. That means something.

A book I am reading keeps repeating "not all lines are straight". in my view, liberals too often see more government as the answer, conservatives less government. The reality is it is probably a bell curve and somewhere between anarchy and a totally planned economy is the sweet spot.

I agree with the idea of a more worker centric economy. It too is a bell curve but I think there is almost no doubt Indiana is hard right on business centric.

Regarding Indiana being a "destination," I don't think that is ever going to be the case.

I grew up there, went to college there, but left when I was 21. I come back to visit my parents and friends a couple of times a year (sometimes more now). I have a lot of fond memories and nostalgia.

But I think for a place to become a living destination, it has to have one of the following: (1) warm weather, (2) some awe-inspiring natural beauty (mountains or oceans), or (3) a very large, culturally significant city with lots of job opportunities.

My two cents: I don't think you could make Indiana (or any other midwest or plain state) a destination state just by turning it into a business haven.

I do think you can make it more attractive, though, to keep its own citizens and draw in enough talent to keep it a vibrant, productive one.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Regarding Indiana being a "destination," I don't think that is ever going to be the case.

I grew up there, went to college there, but left when I was 21. I come back to visit my parents and friends a couple of times a year (sometimes more now). I have a lot of fond memories and nostalgia.

But I think for a place to become a living destination, it has to have one of the following: (1) warm weather, (2) some awe-inspiring natural beauty (mountains or oceans), or (3) a very large, culturally significant city with lots of job opportunities.

My two cents: I don't think you could make Indiana (or any other midwest or plain state) a destination state just by turning it into a business haven.

I do think you can make it more attractive, though, to keep its own citizens and draw in enough talent to keep it a vibrant, productive one.

I do not think you are wrong, but even Indy could have a vibrant downtown and good to paying jobs to at least hold its own. I have read Oklahoma City's efforts in that regard, not a place most people think of as a destination. For Indy, the Colts and Pacers are a start. But good jobs are more a problem.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The thing that really stood out to me with this essay was that the author makes a very good case (probably unintentionally) that conservative governing principles are not inherently winners. Or, for that matter, are liberal principles. Rather, he makes a strong case that pragmatics are far more important than principles. But he doesn't seem to realize that he's done that. Instead of following that train of thought to its conclusion, he only teases with pragmatics insofar as they can make conservative principles more attractive, even as they aren't working.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Regarding Indiana being a "destination," I don't think that is ever going to be the case.

I grew up there, went to college there, but left when I was 21. I come back to visit my parents and friends a couple of times a year (sometimes more now). I have a lot of fond memories and nostalgia.

But I think for a place to become a living destination, it has to have one of the following: (1) warm weather, (2) some awe-inspiring natural beauty (mountains or oceans), or (3) a very large, culturally significant city with lots of job opportunities.

My two cents: I don't think you could make Indiana (or any other midwest or plain state) a destination state just by turning it into a business haven.

I do think you can make it more attractive, though, to keep its own citizens and draw in enough talent to keep it a vibrant, productive one.

Truer words were never spoken

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Regarding Indiana being a "destination," I don't think that is ever going to be the case.

I grew up there, went to college there, but left when I was 21. I come back to visit my parents and friends a couple of times a year (sometimes more now). I have a lot of fond memories and nostalgia.

But I think for a place to become a living destination, it has to have one of the following: (1) warm weather, (2) some awe-inspiring natural beauty (mountains or oceans), or (3) a very large, culturally significant city with lots of job opportunities.

My two cents: I don't think you could make Indiana (or any other midwest or plain state) a destination state just by turning it into a business haven.

I do think you can make it more attractive, though, to keep its own citizens and draw in enough talent to keep it a vibrant, productive one.

This is why we should have gone all in on gambling and weed as soon as possible. Natural beauty or no, plenty of people visit Colorado and never do anything more than eat Cheetohs in the hotel room.

 

[UncleMark]

I had this very thought with the $125 tax credit. Sure, I’ll take it but I’d rather see it invested back into making the state a better place to live.

Exactly. The surplus (and it's not the first time we've been in this same situation) tells me we can afford to invest more in things like education, public health, roads, etc.

 

[DANC]

It was an interesting read.

Author sure admires Mitch Daniels. The critique puts too much emphasis on red versus blue states, and conservative versus liberal for my taste. However, the Old North versus the warmer state trend is a spot on analysis.

The suggestion about moving from the focus on aiding the state's employers to helping employees has a nice populist ring to it. But given the occupations of those who makeup the great majority of our state legislators, this shift just isn't going to happen.

There's a hell of a lot to admire about Mitch.

 

[DANC]

This is why we should have gone all in on gambling and weed as soon as possible. Natural beauty or no, plenty of people visit Colorado and never do anything more than eat Cheetohs in the hotel room.

"plenty of people"?

Maybe plenty you know. I don't know of anyone who goes just to get high in their hotel room.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

This is why we should have gone all in on gambling and weed as soon as possible. Natural beauty or no, plenty of people visit Colorado and never do anything more than eat Cheetohs in the hotel room.

What if they went the other way: market Indiana as "The Family State," where you want to go to raise a family.

Sell yourself as hospitable, welcoming, cheap, good jobs, good K-12 schools, no drugs, no gambling, etc You'd have to spend on some things--schools, for example, maybe a big tax credit for kids? You won't get young people out of college, but you might get them later, when they're earning more money and having kids. You get four seasons, sports teams, comfort food, etc. Norman Rockwell et al.

Worth a shot?

 

[DANC]

What if they went the other way: market Indiana as "The Family State," where you want to go to raise a family.

Sell yourself as hospitable, welcoming, cheap, good jobs, good K-12 schools, no drugs, no gambling, etc You'd have to spend on some things--schools, for example, maybe a big tax credit for kids? You won't get young people out of college, but you might get them later, when they're earning more money and having kids. You get four seasons, sports teams, comfort food, etc. Norman Rockwell et al.

Worth a shot?

Well we do have gambling. And drugs are as big an issue here as anywhere.

Someone posted a listing by U-Haul of states that have gained in people moving in vs moving out and Indiana was rated 6th, I believe. Highest of non-sunbelt or southern states.

I guess I don't get why we would want to attract people to move here. I live in North Carolinanow and people from New York move here in droves. It changes the culture, and not for the better.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

over complicating an issue, is the best way to hide the real driving forces.

let's not over complicate this.

what has killed Joe Worker in Indiana, and the tax base, and business in general, is the same thing that's killed him and it in most all states.

globalism, driven by Wall St and it's ownership of both parties, and exporting our manufacturing base and the good jobs and satellite industries that went with it, and the tax bases that went with it.

this isn't rocket science, nor does it require an econ MBA.

as for making the best of it post offshoring our manufacturing base, lack of min wage increases, fire at will, a regressive income tax structure and sales tax, have just served to push Joe Worker in Indiana further down.

as for Mitch and his folksy "gosh shucks" shtick, he doesn't hold well to scrutiny most paces he's been, starting with totally f'ing over his employees and their retirement when he engineered the sale to AES which made millions for IPALCO execs, and cost employees their retirements.

company malfeasance when he was head at Lilly, squandered the country's surplus as budget director under G W Bush, effectively appointed himself president of PU when his gov term limit was up.

daylight savings time in Ind is his one redeeming thing.

and look for Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Taliban Afghanistan, to have medical pot before Indiana ever does.

 

[IUCrazy2]

The thing that really stood out to me with this essay was that the author makes a very good case (probably unintentionally) that conservative governing principles are not inherently winners. Or, for that matter, are liberal principles. Rather, he makes a strong case that pragmatics are far more important than principles. But he doesn't seem to realize that he's done that. Instead of following that train of thought to its conclusion, he only teases with pragmatics insofar as they can make conservative principles more attractive, even as they aren't working.

Pragmatic is generally going to be the way to go. I think that your pragmatism can be driven by underlying principles though. I think that certain things need to be on a bit of a pendulum when it comes to our type of economic and political system. My preference would be to stick center right.

I think @BradStevens idea of making Indiana a haven for families sounds interesting.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Pragmatic is generally going to be the way to go. I think that your pragmatism can be driven by underlying principles though. I think that certain things need to be on a bit of a pendulum when it comes to our type of economic and political system. My preference would be to stick center right.

I think @BradStevens idea of making Indiana a haven for families sounds interesting.

I think pragmatism is good. I also like the pendulum metaphor, as it recognizes the reality that circumstance might sometimes require a policy not on your preferred side of the swing. And I do think pragmatism can by driven by underlying principles, but I'm not sure it can be driven by underlying conservative/liberal principles. You say you'd prefer the median point of the swinging pendulum to be center-right, but true pragmatism would require you to abandon that in the face of evidence that it wasn't actually the best median. To me, the underlying principles would be less ideological, and more about values - i.e., equality, freedom, human dignity, etc., and how you balance them.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

The thing that really stood out to me with this essay was that the author makes a very good case (probably unintentionally) that conservative governing principles are not inherently winners. Or, for that matter, are liberal principles. Rather, he makes a strong case that pragmatics are far more important than principles. But he doesn't seem to realize that he's done that. Instead of following that train of thought to its conclusion, he only teases with pragmatics insofar as they can make conservative principles more attractive, even as they aren't working.

i'll take issue with that.

liberal economic principles are proven winners. as are non loony liberal social principles.

the Dems held both the US house and senate for almost 40 straight yrs while backing the working man.

only when they totally sold out Joe Worker under Clinton, and the DNC got bought by Wall St who already owned the RNC, did they loose it more than temporarily.

they could win back the US house and senate tomorrow, and keep it, if they went back to backing Joe Worker instead of Wall St.

Wall St, Wall St owned SCOTUS, and corporate media, aren't going let that happen again.

 

[Cortez88]

What if they went the other way: market Indiana as "The Family State," where you want to go to raise a family.

Sell yourself as hospitable, welcoming, cheap, good jobs, good K-12 schools, no drugs, no gambling, etc You'd have to spend on some things--schools, for example, maybe a big tax credit for kids? You won't get young people out of college, but you might get them later, when they're earning more money and having kids. You get four seasons, sports teams, comfort food, etc. Norman Rockwell et al.

Worth a shot?

It’s an interesting thought. However, to get there you would have to unwind a lot of the conservative orthodoxy that the author points out. All of these tax cuts resulted in less revenue. Less revenue required spending cuts. Guess where those came? Education and other areas we would associate with making a place a great place to raise a family. To make Indiana a great place to raise a family the government must provide a certain level of services. Those services require tax revenue and the willingness to spend it on the states residents. Right now, Indiana is cutting taxes and hoarding money. Neither are helping make it a better place to live IMO.

 

[TomEric4756]

What if they went the other way: market Indiana as "The Family State," where you want to go to raise a family.

Sell yourself as hospitable, welcoming, cheap, good jobs, good K-12 schools, no drugs, no gambling, etc You'd have to spend on some things--schools, for example, maybe a big tax credit for kids? You won't get young people out of college, but you might get them later, when they're earning more money and having kids. You get four seasons, sports teams, comfort food, etc. Norman Rockwell et al.

Worth a shot?

Unfortunately the state coffers are hooked on gaming revenue… I don’t see that being repealed any time soon.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Unfortunately the state coffers are hooked on gaming revenue… I don’t see that being repealed any time soon.

As a counterpoint to my ideas, here's Dallas/Ft. Worth. Some might like it because it's warm most of the year, but I would despise living there:

Why Is Everyone Moving to Dallas? - Freakonomics

Why Is Everyone Moving to Dallas? - Freakonomics

freakonomics.com

 

[IUCrazy2]

I think pragmatism is good. I also like the pendulum metaphor, as it recognizes the reality that circumstance might sometimes require a policy not on your preferred side of the swing. And I do think pragmatism can by driven by underlying principles, but I'm not sure it can be driven by underlying conservative/liberal principles. You say you'd prefer the median point of the swinging pendulum to be center-right, but true pragmatism would require you to abandon that in the face of evidence that it wasn't actually the best median. To me, the underlying principles would be less ideological, and more about values - i.e., equality, freedom, human dignity, etc., and how you balance them.

Probably a bit of semantics to the center right thing, but I am thinking of it as a life philosophy. I think the sad thing is that depending on the philosophy that one tends to ascribe to ends with different ideas about what those terms mean.

To me, I think that what would probably be identified as center right would be the preferable "default" but from a pragmatic standpoint, you have to be willing to move off of that because, as you said, no particular ideology is likely to be perfect. I think this is particularly true when discussing economics. Sometimes you need the ref to call a closer game to keep it from getting out of control and sometimes you need a more hands off approach. My preference would be to have a more hands off approach for the majority of the time whereas I think as you move further left from me the desire would be for more oversight and control the further left you go.

 

[TomEric4756]

As a counterpoint to my ideas, here's Dallas/Ft. Worth. Some might like it because it's warm most of the year, but I would despise living there:

Why Is Everyone Moving to Dallas? - Freakonomics

Why Is Everyone Moving to Dallas? - Freakonomics

freakonomics.com

DFW is really nice this time of year … not so much after dozens of days where the temp doesn’t fall below 100, even at night. I was there when they were making relief cuts in interstate concrete to keep it from buckling.

My offer out of grad. School was about 1/3 the median price of a single family home. … It was less than 1/4 the median price by the time I moved in May. I moved out a few years later. (Then the price bubble burst).

Adding Tarrant County and Fort Worth to Dallas and Dallas County …
Plus the suburbs in Colin and Denton counties … you’ll get a surprising number.

I saw wheat fields transformed to luxury suburbs in the few years I was there.

https://images.app.goo.gl/JrRkmB61wjgvkwG76

 

[76-1]

DFW is really nice this time of year … not so much after dozens of days where the temp doesn’t fall below 100 even at night. I was there when they were making relief cuts in interstate concrete to keep it from buckling.

My offer out of grad. School was about 1/3 the median price of a single family home. … It was less than 1/4 the mediane price by the time I moved in May. I moved out a few years later. (Then the price bubble burst).

Adding Tarrant County and Fort Worth to Dallas and Dallas County

The wife and I were in line for something down in New Orleans a few years back and shared some small talk with the guy in front of us... We asked him where he was from and he said: "Hell"..., also known as Texas..., I come here to cool off ...". It was about 88 with nearly 100 percent humidity... 😎

 

[TomEric4756]

The wife and I were in line for something down in New Orleans a few years back and shared some small talk with the guy in front of us... We asked him where he was from and he said: "Hell"..., also known as Texas..., I come here to cool off ...". It was about 88 with nearly 100 percent humidity... 😎

Yes South and East of I-10 in Texas (Houston to San Antonio… can be as humid as NO … and hotter)
Austin can be miserable too.

I remember a dry line that blew through before I got off work … Temp dropped from 103 to 94 and humidity dropped to about 32% … felt like relief.

 

[UncleMark]

To make Indiana a great place to raise a family the government must provide a certain level of services. Those services require tax revenue and the willingness to spend it on the states residents. Right now, Indiana is cutting taxes and hoarding money. Neither are helping make it a better place to live IMO.

The surplus appears to be a consequence of all the money that was dumped into the economy over the last couple years. That means it's temporary. Currently they are going to do a one time credit/rebate to the taxpayers (that's a legislative requirement, I believe) and also apply some against unfunded pension liabilities. Both are fine, proper things to do with an unexpected windfall.

Unfortunately, the "taxes are too high" crowd is also looking at cutting income taxes. That's just fvcking stupid. When the surplus has been spent and revenues fall short, those same morons will claim they have no choice but to cut spending. Raising taxes back to where they are currently, which don't seem to be causing anyone any distress, won't be considered.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Unfortunately the state coffers are hooked on gaming revenue… I don’t see that being repealed any time soon.

or maybe it's the state legislators who are hooked on gaming revenue.

Indiana, the pay to play state.

 

[TomEric4756]

globalism, driven by Wall St and it's ownership of both parties, and exporting our manufacturing base and the good jobs and satellite industries that went with it, and the tax bases that went with it.

Meanwhile … key Government officials are at Davos listening to foreign oligarchs, plutocrats, and dictators describe how the world should work … and not objecting to crushing the pursuit of happiness. If your not already in the club, don’t hold your breath waiting for an invitation.