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Anti-MAGA Conservative roundtable

MM66 and CoH both put the policies of a president as being more important than the personality of a president.

In my view this hasn't always been the case given that laws can only be passed by Congress with the President limited to the veto power. Even then a veto could be overridden by Congress.

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending upon your point of view, the current and increasing use of Executive Orders has given a president the power to pass laws and implement policies.

Technically an Executive Order is not a law (a law must be passed by Congress and signed by the President), it has the force of a law and it must be carried out. What it doesn't have is permanence. By not having permanence we can go from president to president resulting in policy changes as old Executive Orders are replaced with new ones. Given this, policies regarding important matters such as immigration and climate depend on whomever is in the Oval Office and lack permanence.

How can we be a country of laws and not people if the laws which govern important policies are not permanent ?
Correct. We have an Imperial Presidency, which is one reason we're barely a stop above a banana republic.

How these EO's are Constitutional is beyond me. I know the President, as Chief Executive, carries out the legislation passed by Congress, but that's not what these EOs are.
 
Correct. We have an Imperial Presidency, which is one reason we're barely a stop above a banana republic.

How these EO's are Constitutional is beyond me. I know the President, as Chief Executive, carries out the legislation passed by Congress, but that's not what these EOs are.

The system is broken because congress can't do much of anything when parties don't work with each other. EOs is the only way around it.
 
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Correct. We have an Imperial Presidency, which is one reason we're barely a stop above a banana republic.

How these EO's are Constitutional is beyond me. I know the President, as Chief Executive, carries out the legislation passed by Congress, but that's not what these EOs are.
DANC, you bring up the Constitutionality of EOs.

There is no specific provision in the United States Constitution for Executive Orders. However, Section 1 of Article II (the Executive Power) is generally viewed as granting authority for such orders.

Also Congress can pass laws which invalidate EOs, or cut off funds to thwart the implementation of the EO. The president can then veto the legislation which would require a 2/3 vote to override the veto.

The courts can overturn a EO if it is determined the president didn't have the constitutional authority in the first place.

In general, however, EOs are easy to write and not so easy to overturn.
 
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Executive Orders have been around a long time but now it seems like it's a way just to bypass congress completely. Oddly, Congress doesn't seem to care they have become irrelevant because of them. The crazy thing about relying on executive orders is the next person in office can, for the most part, end them immediately. Seems the country would be better off if Congress would pass laws and the President would sign them or veto them, as it was meant to be.
 
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Executive Orders have been around a long time but now it seems like it's a way just to bypass congress completely. Oddly, Congress doesn't seem to care they have become irrelevant because of them. The crazy thing about relying on executive orders is the next person in office can, for the most part, end them immediately. Seems the country would be better off if Congress would pass laws and the President would sign them or veto them, as it was meant to be.
Euro, come to the Cooler more often.

Say this because I agree with you completely, so far.
 
Executive Orders have been around a long time but now it seems like it's a way just to bypass congress completely. Oddly, Congress doesn't seem to care they have become irrelevant because of them. The crazy thing about relying on executive orders is the next person in office can, for the most part, end them immediately. Seems the country would be better off if Congress would pass laws and the President would sign them or veto them, as it was meant to be.

everyone seems to think our legislature and regulatory agencies are incompetent or inefficient.

the exact opposite is true. they absolutely couldn't be any more competent and efficient.

they pass and approve everything those who own them want passed and approved, and block everything those who own them don't want passed or approved, and easily have the votes and control to do so.

when money is allowed to buy govt, there's a 100% chance it will.

100%!

SCOTUS allowed it, so it got bought.

it's just business.

you guys aren't some of those anti business anti freedom Communists are you?

wtf did people think would happen?????

what happened is the only possible thing that could have happened.

and our legislatures and regulatory agencies are performing flawlessly for those they represent.

if you don't like who they are and aren't representing, take it up with SCOTUS, where power is controlled by 5 people appointed behind closed doors by big money, and answerable to no one ever.

oh wait, you can't take it up with SCOTUS. nobody can. sorry bout that.

the power of those 5 people appointed behind closed doors, and answerable to no one, ever, totally dwarfs any executive order powers of prezes.

and btw, the prez only has the ability to do executive orders at all, as long as the real dictators allow it.
 
Well hell, everyone knows if a Democrat starts a rumor and reports it to the media, it becomes fact.
So which Democrat "started" the rumor? Was it convicted former Seminole Co Tax Assessor Joel Greenberg, friend and political crony of Matt Gaetz who was appointed to his position by Gaetz? He used his office to commit felonies, and in a plea deal has agreed to plead guilty to 6 (including sex trafficking of a minor, identity theft, bribery and stalking). He has agreed to cooperate with the Govt in exchange for a lighter sentence, but any sentence reduction relies on the accuracy of his co-operation...

And just this week, his sentencing was pushed back until Aug...

Greenberg initially faced 33 criminal counts but prosecutors cut a deal with him last year, reducing the charges to six in exchange for Greenberg’s cooperation in multiple inquiries, including into the GOP congressman."


It was earlier discussions with Federal investigators which initially brought Gaetz into the picture. From the Tampa Bay Times...

"By the time it was revealed in court last month that Greenberg planned to take a plea deal, he had already met with federal investigators several times and told them about having given women cash and gifts in exchange for sex with himself and Gaetz, according to The New York Times.

According to the report, he decided to talk once he realized the case against him was “overwhelming.”

Greenberg will cooperate fully with the government in the “investigation and prosecution of other persons,” and if his cooperation is of “substantial assistance” to prosecutors, they will recommend lower prison sentence, the agreement says.


So this case has taken a year and counting, but you guys don't seem to care that Durham brought a case against Sussmann 6 yrs after the fact. So Federal Cases requiring witness co-operation can sometimes take a while.

Difference is the evidence here was so "overwhelming" that Greenberg had no choice but to co-operate, while Durham brought a flimsy case against Sussmann and has no prayer of scaring him into a plea deal and providing evidence against anyone else. Greenberg fingered Gaetz in the first place and is facing 12 yrs minimum without a sentence reduction



And this is an opinion piece,. But it describes the ongoing corruption from Gaetz/Greenberg cronies, even after Greenberg's arrest and other Gaetz buddies are tied into the corruption trough...

 
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Correct. We have an Imperial Presidency, which is one reason we're barely a stop above a banana republic.

How these EO's are Constitutional is beyond me. I know the President, as Chief Executive, carries out the legislation passed by Congress, but that's not what these EOs are.
So did you complain about this in the Trump presidency, because he issued nearly as many EOs in 4 years, as both Bush and Obama did in 8? In 8 yrs each Bush and Obama issued 291 and 276 respectively, while Trump issued 220 in only 4 yrs. Trump (55) had a significantly higher yearly average, than Bush (36) and Obama (35)..

Biden is on a slightly higher pace than Trump early on, having issued (90) in about 1 1/3 yrs. His yearly average is 12 pts higher than Trump at 67, but I'd assume at least some of those are pandemic related, as well as revoking some of the ones Trump issued...
 
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So which Democrat "started" the rumor? Was it convicted former Seminole Co Tax Assessor Joel Greenberg, friend and political crony of Matt Gaetz who was appointed to his position by Gaetz? He used his office to commit felonies, and in a plea deal has agreed to plead guilty to 6 (including sex trafficking of a minor, identity theft, bribery and stalking). He has agreed to cooperate with the Govt in exchange for a lighter sentence, but any sentence reduction relies on the accuracy of his co-operation...

And just this week, his sentencing was pushed back until Aug...

Greenberg initially faced 33 criminal counts but prosecutors cut a deal with him last year, reducing the charges to six in exchange for Greenberg’s cooperation in multiple inquiries, including into the GOP congressman."


It was earlier discussions with Federal investigators which initially brought Gaetz into the picture. From the Tampa Bay Times...

"By the time it was revealed in court last month that Greenberg planned to take a plea deal, he had already met with federal investigators several times and told them about having given women cash and gifts in exchange for sex with himself and Gaetz, according to The New York Times.

According to the report, he decided to talk once he realized the case against him was “overwhelming.”

Greenberg will cooperate fully with the government in the “investigation and prosecution of other persons,” and if his cooperation is of “substantial assistance” to prosecutors, they will recommend lower prison sentence, the agreement says.


So this case has taken a year and counting, but you guys don't seem to care that Durham brought a case against Sussmann 6 yrs after the fact. So Federal Cases requiring witness co-operation can sometimes take a while.

Difference is the evidence here was so "overwhelming" that Greenberg had no choice but to co-operate, while Durham brought a flimsy case against Sussmann and has no prayer of scaring him into a plea deal and providing evidence against anyone else. Greenberg fingered Gaetz in the first place and is facing 12 yrs minimum without a sentence reduction



And this is an opinion piece,. But it describes the ongoing corruption from Gaetz/Greenberg cronies, even after Greenberg's arrest and other Gaetz buddies are tied into the corruption trough...

TL;DR But the first part I read was hilarious.l

This trial, while narrow in scope, has exposed the entire plot concocted by the Clinton campaign and the FBI to 1) Keep Trump from being elected, and 2) to try to kick him out of office once he was elected.

The trial has shown the FBI knew the accusations were bullshit, without an ounce of evidece, yet they still continued the 'investigation' with the bogus Mueller report.

And don't think Sussman will be the last one charged.

Then you bring Gaetz into it? lmao You are so ****ing desparate.
 
So did you complain about this in the Trump presidency, because he issued nearly as many EOs in 4 years, as both Bush and Obama did in 8? In 8 yrs each Bush and Obama issued 291 and 276 respectively, while Trump issued 220 in only 4 yrs. Trump (55) had a significantly higher yearly average, than Bush (36) and Obama (35)..

Biden is on a slightly higher pace than Trump early on, having issued (90) in about 1 1/3 yrs. His yearly average is 12 pts higher than Trump at 67, but I'd assume at least some of those are pandemic related, as well as revoking some of the ones Trump issued...
No, I didn't complain because nearly all of his EO reversed Obama's EO's he made over 8 years.

EO's are wrong no matter who does them, but if they reverse another EO, I don't see the problem - it's just reversing a bad decision.
 
Disagree. I think Trump is a lot smarter than people give him credit. Learned narcissism. If the Dems run a moderate Trump will be vetted and self vetted and if DeSantis has a strong election in Fla DeSantis will be the nominee. DeSantis has raised a ton of money. If the Dems run a far left candidate all bets are off and maybe trump thinks he can win and runs.

Just my opinion
Trump and DeSantis will discuss who is going to run in person. It will be one of the other, not both.
 
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He will play “kingmaker”, take Ivanka on as SecState or something else
I think you are right. The western conference thing had DeSantis ahead of Trump. I think the gov election in November will be a bellwether. If DeSantis wins by 3 points he'll run
 
You guys are nuts. Trump will never willingly give up on another term. He thinks it's owed to him.
1) he may not have the opp and 2) I could be wrong but I think he's way more cunning than people think. I'd bet all my dogecoin that he doesn't think the election was stolen. He won't want to risk losing again IF IF IF the Dems put up someone decent. Playing kingmaker will better sate his narcissism.
 
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1) he may not have the opp and 2) I could be wrong but I think he's way more cunning than people think. I'd bet all my dogecoin that he doesn't think the election was stolen. He won't want to risk losing again IF IF IF the Dems put up someone decent. Playing kingmaker will better sate his narcissism.
1) The only way he would be denied the nomination is if something comes out of the Jan 6 investigation or the various court cases that somehow breaks his hold on the party. I doubt that there's anything that would short of a criminal conviction. 2) Doesn't matter what he actually believes; it would be impossible for him to not continue making the claim. He would continue to make it if he lost in 2024. And I wouldn't be surprised if he went to further lengths to try and take power in that case.
 
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1) The only way he would be denied the nomination is if something comes out of the Jan 6 investigation or the various court cases that somehow breaks his hold on the party. I doubt that there's anything that would short of a criminal conviction. 2) Doesn't matter what he actually believes; it would be impossible for him to not continue making the claim. He would continue to make it if he lost in 2024. And I wouldn't be surprised if he went to further lengths to try and take power in that case.
He's already losing grip. He won't be the guy. "Mark" my words. If Desantis beats Crist by a decent margin, which in Fla ain't much, he'll leapfrog Trump and that'll be the end of Trump. They'll figure out a way for Trump to act like he's giving DeSantis the opp


 
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He's already losing grip. He won't be the guy. "Mark" my words. If Desantis beats Crist by a decent margin, which in Fla ain't much, he'll leapfrog Trump and that'll be the end of Trump. They'll figure out a way for Trump to act like he's giving DeSantis the opp

The party faithful did their best to deny Trump the nomination in 2016 and couldn't stop the wave once he got rolling. I suppose it's possible that a single Pub opponent could gain enough support to defeat him, but if you think that everyone will defer to DeSantis I think that's wishful thinking. Cruz, Pompeo, Cotton, Haley... they may think differently.
 
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The party faithful did their best to deny Trump the nomination in 2016 and couldn't stop the wave once he got rolling. I suppose it's possible that a single Pub opponent could gain enough support to defeat him, but if you think that everyone will defer to DeSantis I think that's wishful thinking. Cruz, Pompeo, Cotton, Haley... they may think differently.
2016 is a far cry from today. we have the benefit of time passing and seeing how he behaves. DeSantis is way smarter than all of them combined. I like saying the wokesters are a cult. Because they are a cult. But the posters on here who refer to trumpsters as a cult I believe are wrong. trumpism really isn't a cult. it's a cult of ideology no different than that of the wokesters. Desantis is the new torchbearer. trump isn't needed to carry it on. Same rhetoric. Same divisiveness. Same social justice retaliatory stances. same covid responses. tell me an issue, any issue, and i can tell you exactly where Desantis will come down on it. it's in the same ideological cult playbook as trump. this will become clearer and clearer as the months go on. the same folks who loved trump will jump like fleas to desantis
 
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2016 is a far cry from today. we have the benefit of time passing and seeing how he behaves. DeSantis is way smarter than all of them combined. I like saying the wokesters are a cult. Because they are a cult. But the posters on here who refer to trumpsters as a cult I believe are wrong. trumpism really isn't a cult. it's a cult of ideology no different than that of the wokesters. Desantis is the new torchbearer. trump isn't needed to carry it on. Same rhetoric. Same divisiveness. Same social justice retaliatory stances. same covid responses. tell me an issue, any issue, and i can tell you exactly where Desantis will come down on it. it's in the same ideological cult playbook as trump. this will become clearer and clearer as the months go on. the same folks who loved trump will jump like fleas to desantis
Rasmussen: All likely voters top issues
1. Inflation
2. Election Integrity
3. Violent Crime
4. Rising Gas Prices
5. Illegal Immigration
6. School Issues
Rasmussen: Legacy Media top issues
1. Abortion Rights
2. Capitol Riot Investigation
3. CoViD-19
4. Climate Change
5. LGBTQ Issues
6. Ukraine

I’m not surprised one bit
 
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Rasmussen: All likely voters top issues
1. Inflation
2. Election Integrity
3. Violent Crime
4. Rising Gas Prices
5. Illegal Immigration
6. School Issues
Rasmussen: Legacy Media top issues
1. Abortion Rights
2. Capitol Riot Investigation
3. CoViD-19
4. Climate Change
5. LGBTQ Issues
6. Ukraine

I’m not surprised one bit
Media is lost
 
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1) he may not have the opp and 2) I could be wrong but I think he's way more cunning than people think. I'd bet all my dogecoin that he doesn't think the election was stolen. He won't want to risk losing again IF IF IF the Dems put up someone decent. Playing kingmaker will better sate his narcissism.
Oh, I think he thinks the election was stolen. 100%.

But I also think he likes being kingmaker, and he doesn't have to risk losing another election.

A lot may depend on the blowback, or lack thereof, from the Jan 6 show trial.

I still think there are other shoes to drop on the 2020 election.
 
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He’s an actual solid Republican so the Trumpsters hate him.
He's definitely your type of Republican - a congenial guy who just wants to get along, so will compromise core principles to get along and not get bad media coverage.
 
He's definitely your type of Republican - a congenial guy who just wants to get along, so will compromise core principles to get along and not get bad media coverage.
He's the kind of Republican that gets Republican things done. That's what we need.
 
2016 is a far cry from today. we have the benefit of time passing and seeing how he behaves. DeSantis is way smarter than all of them combined. I like saying the wokesters are a cult. Because they are a cult. But the posters on here who refer to trumpsters as a cult I believe are wrong. trumpism really isn't a cult. it's a cult of ideology no different than that of the wokesters. Desantis is the new torchbearer. trump isn't needed to carry it on. Same rhetoric. Same divisiveness. Same social justice retaliatory stances. same covid responses. tell me an issue, any issue, and i can tell you exactly where Desantis will come down on it. it's in the same ideological cult playbook as trump. this will become clearer and clearer as the months go on. the same folks who loved trump will jump like fleas to desantis
It absolutely is a cult. It's a cult of personality for Trumpsters and it's clear because no matter what stupid and false thing he says, Trumpsters will defend him. That's what cult members do.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're on track with your wokester cult theory. I think there's a lot to that.
 
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The party faithful did their best to deny Trump the nomination in 2016 and couldn't stop the wave once he got rolling. I suppose it's possible that a single Pub opponent could gain enough support to defeat him, but if you think that everyone will defer to DeSantis I think that's wishful thinking. Cruz, Pompeo, Cotton, Haley... they may think differently.
I agree. If Trump wants the nomination, he'll get it. The others are young enough to wait and a serious primary fight against Trump would 86 any Republican chances of winning in 2024.
 
Oh, I think he thinks the election was stolen. 100%.

But I also think he likes being kingmaker, and he doesn't have to risk losing another election.

A lot may depend on the blowback, or lack thereof, from the Jan 6 show trial.

I still think there are other shoes to drop on the 2020 election.
That he thinks the election was stolen is proof that he's too stupid to be our President. It's time to move on from Trump. Way past time to move on, actually.
 
That he thinks the election was stolen is proof that he's too stupid to be our President. It's time to move on from Trump. Way past time to move on, actually.
I said I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about Trump. So I won't.
 
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That's not what this is about. At all.

This is people who are like you claim (lifelong conservatives who don't care for Trump), but fully put their money where their mouth is and don't want to vote for him at all.

The only binary view being discussed here is of the Trump cultists who either believe you're fully with Trump or you're against him.

To your point though, anyone left of center probably do see support of Trump to be a non-starter. Anyone who can't or won't rationalize their values, morals and beliefs feels that way.
I am so thankful you have the insight to know that ANYONE who supports Trump is rationalizing their values, moral and beliefs.
 
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