Maybe we need to attract better police officers . . . better pay and benefits might help, but asking less of them in terms of authoritarian imposition of control might be even more important.
Wisconsin
- Thread starter glmiu11
- Start date
This is a stretch....
When he resists arrest, doesn’t capitulate when tased, & takes action that could result in your death or endangering the public, like going to the car to retrieve a weapon, in spite of repeated warnings.
I know this would help immensely.
I’m sure he would have just pulled over to change his flat. No way he drives into any traffic or anything endangering the public.
You’re trying too hard...Most of the cops I know don't want to be in a position of having to impose control; they do so only because they perceive it being a part of their job description. Their preference would be to approach things as a human being rather than a human battering ram.
Karen and Kyle said:
It seems like reality, to me.
Personally my experiences are only based on anecdotes and also do not involve violent crimes, but in the 1980s as a student in Bloomington, the odds of being stopped by police while in a car with my African American housemate depended greatly upon which one of us was driving.
My understanding is that a race-based assumption of wrongdoing extends far beyond traffic control.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
There’s a lot of qualitative “data” in that post that is not objective and relies on a lot of narrative. If you change “racial” to “socioeconomic” we’d probably have a much more honest discussion.
You ever try driving with four flat tires?I’m sure he would have just pulled over to change his flat. No way he drives into any traffic or anything endangering the public.
The problem with basing policy on arrests data is that it doesn't really indicate anything about actual crimes . . . convictions are the only reliable information regarding crime stats, IMHO. If it's a lock conviction case then the conviction data will reflect that. If charges are dismissed for any reason then the arrests for those charges won't skew the data.
I hear your hypothesis . . . but it's only a hypothesis. And we can just as easily hypothesize that the conviction rate < the arrest rate, because some charges are dropped, some are plea-bargained away, and some charges result in not guilty verdicts.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
We can of course agree, as reasonable people - tho you are often far more reasonable than I- that conviction rate < arrest rate simply using common sense.
The question is “how much less” broken down on racial and/or socioeconomic lines. My hypothesis is that it would follow the same trend. I’ll do some digging.
I'll rely on your shovel, and reserve all comments regarding same.
My name is Tom Sawyer.
agreed. but there's issues in changing their roles and hiking their benefits and pay and job qualifications. where the money will come from. recalcitrant unions. blah blah blah. sucks.
violent is the critical part. i one hundred percent believe blacks are profiled (pulled over more etc.). but remember it's the violent part that's germane to the discussion.
I believe the police have said they clearly identified themselves so who knows which story is the truth? I can see the need for "no knock" as an element of surprise especially with certain criminals or crime rings.
I suspect that no knocks will cease, I also expect police to be less decisive going forward which may play into the hands of criminals.
I don’t know. With the current environment I was shocked to see those cops in Wisconsin shooting. We need better cops. Some of us aren’t disputing that the cops are shit; we’re disputing race is a factor.
I could see how you'd question whether race was a factor in the Wisconsin police shooting . . . is that what you mean when you say "we're disputing race is a factor"?
Or are you actually disputing that race was a factor? If so, on what basis do you dispute that race was a factor? Are there facts supported by evidence that lead you to that conclusion? Or are you saying that, other than the racial disparity between the man shot and the police involved, you haven't seen evidence to conclude race was a factor?
No I was unclear. I am saying that I do not believe cop shootings in general are racially motivated. I do not believe there is systemic racism in that area. The data I cited above supports same. That said, seeing the courts, watching how things work in the system, I do believe racism/profiling is prevalent with traffic stops, bonds, warrants etc. tho this too is impacted by economic status to a degree.
Because you were in a ****ing war zone maybe? Are you admitting that today's police are also basically in a ****ing warzone? If so, it really does call into question the people they are policing, no?
What does this even mean? The mere presence of a uniform and marked patrol car is part of “control”. That presence is the first step in deescalation. In our jurisdiction, cops are permitted to drive patrol cars while off duty for personal business. The theory is that the presence of a marked patrol vehicle changes behaviors for the better. At least it used to. Those officers are instructed if they see behavior that requires a stop or other contact, and there is no emergency, to call for uniformed presence for obvious reasons.
While there are obvious exceptions, by in large, the amount of control to be imposed beyond the inherent authority of the position depends on the reactions of the subject and the willingness to follow simple commands. That being said, given the proliferation of firearms, and the willingness to use them, cops are more on edge than before in many circumstances. Moreover, we are living in times where political and other leaders are legitimizing citizen resistance to police to levels not previously known. This is also a problem.
I already have the horror movie version of this in my head. He goes back inside and takes the tape off the mouth of the woman he's been holding captive. Eeek!
Each situation is different, but I think your example highlights a massive difference in attitudes in many of the encounters we see and I can understand some of the distrust my African-American brethren feel. IMHO, the big recalibration that needs to happen is modifying the assignment that we give police. They are asked to handle far too wide an array of tasks and there isn't enough training to meet the amount of differing expertise necessary to be successful in them. As a result, we see too much obey by force instead of protect and serve because that's the lowest common denominator solution we've come to accept. The concurrent devaluing of individual human lives that Sope has rightly highlighted (across all of society, not just in these encounters) has created a toxic brew. But, Ranger's highlighting of our wrong-headed acceptance of this lowered expectation for law enforcement is very enlightening to me. It suggests that there is training and that there are expectations that can lead us do better.
I want you to google 2 names and watch the videos that will pop up as part of your search. Both videos will show why today's police view someone digging around in their car after a confrontation as a very serious threat. On the list of things that are likely to get you shot, what the gentleman in Wisconsin did is going to be near the top of the list.
Kyle Dinkheller and Daniel Clary. Google and watch the videos and educate yourself.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/jacob-blake-struggling-police-officersshot-new-video-shows
New video showing him struggling with the police before the shooting.
New video showing him struggling with the police before the shooting.
The guy in the video appears to be in a standard middle class neighborhood. I don't know if it was economics that made the police trust him, or if it was race, but it is clear he didn't get the same level of trust many others get.
That's an interesting take. The "why" behind it is more interesting though. Why do you think that systemic racism is prevalent in traffic interactions with police, but doesn't exist in other aspects of policing? Why do you think it is involved in some aspects of the judicial process, but seem to believe it doesn't exist in others? I'm a little skeptical that there's some bright line where it happens on one side and doesn't on the other, but I'm very interested in your insights for why you believe this to be the case as I can also see other possible explanations as well.
Interesting video. He seems to break free of the police, but he also doesn't seem to be attacking the police. I really don't know how that is going to change the narrative either direction.
If by "for personal business" you mean take patrol cars home, I'd wager that you are mistaken if you believe that control is the sole (or even primary) reason that is permitted.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
1) As someone in the past who made a vote for people that placed those ridiculous ROE on you in a warzone, I do here officially apologize to you. Your ROE were bullshit, our whole failed experiment in Afghanistan and Iraq was bull shit, and part of Trump's platform I find appealing is his want to get us out of that shit and keep us out.
2) The officer that fired was right on top of him basically at the door. We have a video shot from across the street. Seems everyone is jumping to conclusions about what the officer should or should not have done without even knowing what the cop knew when he pulled the trigger.
3) One thing you often see in these shootings is that the person who gets shot are completely defiant dickheads who escalate the situation to the nth degree all because of this narrative that the police are just there to mess with them. This guy had a warrant and fought with the police, was tased, and got away from them all before the video kicked up. I honestly start to lose sympathy in situations like this for people who in my opinion bring this on themselves. Do they deserve to get shot? I don't know. If I walk out in traffic do I deserve to be hit by a car? If the message going out was to just comply and things will generally work out instead of raising the tension with all of this rhetoric about people being hunted (which is bull shit) and f--- 12, and f--- the police...that does not help. Convincing people they need to act out like this guy did is going to cause a spike in shootings.
You said you were trained in hand to hand combat even though you drove around in an armored vehicle with a grenade launcher. I said you were in a warzone being trained to be a soldier combatting an enemy.
Saying our police need the same training as a soldier is kind of admitting that the people they are policing in these inner cities are similar to the militias you were facing and that they are operating in a war zone. Gangs shooting each other for territory and the underground drug economy, the police are dealing with enemy combatants in those inner cities who are mixed in with people just trying to get by. They are basically fighting a low level domestic insurgency.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
- Unnecessary. I cast same votes.
- not sure I follow - the cop was right on him and should have been able to see if he was teaching for a gun or not
- Of course I agree
war zone?
what were the late 80s/early 90s, then?
Interesting that the most steep periods of decline are 1992-2000 (Clinton presidency) and 2008-2016 (Obama presidency). I note this while also noting that I never voted for either guy.
Clearly government lawyers advising police can be a significant part of the problem. Let me help you out.
Today the presence of police in their uniforms and marked patrol cars does not deescalate situations; today they escalate situations by imposing a threat of authoritarian control where folks just want to go about their business. Too much authoritarianism resulting from stuff like the militarization of police (no knock warrants, the widespread deployment of SWAT teams and the like) and civil forfeitures has caused this result, not "legitimizing citizen resistance to police".
The resistance to police is mostly genuine because the police have gone too far. Citizens - that's citizens - have had enough of the overbearing police tactics . . . with little things like setting up a speed trap near a high school on an SAT test day (which I witnessed locally about 15 years ago).
[on edit]: Rockport Zebra brought this issue to the fore on this forum about 10 years ago or so, when he mentioned his fear that we have become a police state, and he was absolutely correct then. It's no less so now . . . my opinion is that it's more so with Trump in the presidency.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I know nothing about the training of police officers. That being said, if police are not trained in hand to hand combat to be able to protect themselves and subdue / submit others, then I think this is point numero uno that needs to be addressed. It is completely unacceptable for the logic diagram to be
- Taser
- If taser fails and subject is resisting, draw weapon
- If subject will not lie down and is doing anything to make cops feel like they’re retrieving a lethal weapon - then shoot them
If cops are no trained to kick someone’s ass that needs it kicked, that’s the issue right there.
1. Yeah, but it was still a mistake and I was not there. You were (along with some of my family members who are permanently scarred because of it.)
2. That is what I am saying. The cop was right on him and decided he needed to shoot. We don't even have his side of things, we don't know what Blake was reaching for, and we don't know what the officer could see. Yet the thrust of the thread was that "well another bad shooting by an officer". I don't see it that way.
3.
If by "for personal business" you mean take patrol cars home, I'd wager that you are mistaken if you believe that control is the sole (or even primary) reason that is permitted.
I see your point, but think of some of your hand to hand techniques you were taught. That stuff is police brutality if they do it to a criminal.
In this case, I believe that before the video started that the police did try to subdue him and did try the taser. None of that worked.
Cops "kicked Rodney King's ass" back in the day and L.A. burned to the ground. Kicking someone's ass like you would as a soldier can be every bit as lethal as the gun.
I am just saying that being a police officer is a hard job. Particularly given that I believe that big city officers in places like Chicago or New York basically work in a low level war zone when the sun goes down. I really don't want to see a riot everytime something like this happens. The narrative around this needs to change. I believe dialog between the police and those communities is needed, but it has to be a dialog built on the willingness for each side to change because the police have some valid grievances with those inner city communities as well.
this requires an answer that's more time than i have; but lots goes into it. i've worked closely with cops for many years. i've been in many courts where confined dockets are held and bulk dockets. over simplifying but responding to a violent situation which is where most shootings take place is a different animal than a traffic stop. again last year there were only a 1,000 of same and 235 were black. it's a scary high anxiety reflexive matter where many of the cops aren't equipped to handle same. like sope said i believe it's just bad cops more than racism - in keeping with the statistics.
at the bottom of the ladder if feels like more opportunties for racism, or perhaps it's just that blacks are disproportionately impacted. but economics is massive here too. i see it in the poorer white communities and counties. but an example - poor people might have expired tags on the car they're drving. the bill to fix the emissions is too much so it won't pass. whatever. now there's an excuse to pull them over. they get a ticket. or the ticket is mailed to an old address. or the court notice is mailed to an old address and they're staying somewhere else. bouncing around. now they miss court. warrant. fta fines. a year goes by they get pulled over. by now they've missed court 12 times. fines through the roof and because a warrant was out they're taken in. now they have to find bond money to get out. bam bonded out.$500 bucks. but now they have a new court date wherever for being pulled over and an old court date from the original deal where fines by now might be $1,500. but now they also need a lawyer. and this sounds like a pain in the ass you'd have to appear on. so maybe you charge $500 for the hour or two to go. so now these folks are out $2,500 over driving with expired tags (which still hasn't been addressed because they don't have the money to fix the pipe to pass emissions)
this is the shit you'll see an entire docket full of in the city. 98 percent black. and it's just dumb. and sad. and unnecessary. but what do you do?
Once a year the city muni court has an amnesty day. If you go pay your original fine they’ll recall all warrants and forgive ftas. The line stretches for blocks outside. All these people who wanted to take care of their ticket but couldn’t bc they got caught in the system’s trickbag with warrants and fines. It’s F’d up.
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