Who's going to apologize to Sweden?
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
- Start date
Do politicians who are reluctant to exercise control scare you? Or is it the idea of trusting citizens to make decisions for themselves that is so terrifying?
This is true and a big part of the problem.
We have spent more time in this country arguing, in my opinion, the dumbest shit in regards to this virus vs focusing on the simplest of things to help curb it.
If we can't even agree on the simplest things then none of its going to work.
Dumb sports analogy but if every guy on the offensive line leaves the huddle pissed and determined that they are going to block for the play they want, f what the right guard is going to do....you're going to get destroyed.
To Jamie who brought up Minnesota vs Wisconsin, you know we're 45 minutes from Wisconsin. The overwhelming majority of people in MN live in the twin cities. That's like trying to keep the Bloomington kids out of Indy. That's like putting up a chained link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard.
When one state says f covid and the other tries to put in measures....well you get the right guard going in a different direction than the left tackle thing.
Bottom line there needed to be a unified federal action plan with simple rules that made common sense.
Instead we got an absolute clusterfvck in messaging and like this board we spent so much wasted energy fighting.
We needed a strong federal to say 'children here are the rules. I'm the bad guy not your neighbor or your governor if you don't agree with them but, here's the plan in a manner that's easy to understand.
Even if that plan is awful like herd immunity, we need to abide by it and let history judge it accordingly.
I'd much rather have a bad plan than no plan.
would have never worked tommy. federalism and too much rugged individualism and belief in business. like i said i live in a county run by a doctor who has imposed strict "rules" just yesterday had one of our largest munis tell him to F off our cops aren't enforcing them. "we're standing up for local businesses."
Ah, some refreshing conservative law and order mentality from the police as usual.
While you're right about it probably not working, it's wrong to chalk it up to federalism and rugged individualism. What we have here is neither. We have the childish understanding of freedom as the rough equivalent of "You're not the boss of me!"
rugged individualism is a euphemism for "you're not the boss of me." we could never get enough people to row together to make any plan work for long enough to matter.
If the WH was pushing herd immunity as much as is currently claimed, that probably ends up being a good thing.
That's cool but 'freedom' isn't only 'I should be able to do what I fvcking want and make decisions that are best for me regardless of whose freedoms I shit on around me'.
Freedom is also about not having other people forcing their unwanted will on you.
For example I really want to fvck this college girl. She's super hot and I really want to experience that. I going to force her to bang me.
The contagion of the virus is the rub. You are pretty much given the freedom to do anything you want as long as you aren't infringing on someone's freedom to do it.
We all agree with that right?
If we can get to a place where people can protect themselves from the contagion of covid...then go kill yourself out there my man, that's your right to do that.
Right now people's behavior are causing people to get sick so you gotta ask yourself, is the behavior critical? If it's not then stop infringing on people's freedoms please. Thank you.
the problem, as you highlight, is lack of uniformity. it's grating as hell for small businesses etc to be shutdown when walmart has people packed in like sardines. vagaries in county restrictions. on and on. we needed good messaging from the prez, and consistent messaging from state govs i guess. i really don't know at this point. leaving each county to decide has been a shitshow and engendered loads of resentment. kids missing out on high school sports but seasons going strong two miles away. on and on
But maybe, like Sweden, we could agree it was a bad plan and move on?
Bwaa haaa haaa it would of course never be acknowledged as a bad plan and more than likely spun that it was a great plan.
It seems like we can't even agree on basic reality to have a debate over anymore.
Just in this thread we've taken simple numbers from three countries right next to each other and argued over the validity of the numbers.
Not good.
Was it critical for you to travel to Arizona?
Personally I'm glad you did. If I remember right...you had a good time even though you were surrounded by folks of a different political persuasion.
100% agree.
We have put a tremendous pressure on small businesses while enriching the big corps I absolutely agree with that.
We probably needed to define 'places to gather and socialize' more succinctly.
Maybe have a table and chairs rule. I don't know but I agree it's not right to close a small business completely while letting the Wal marts operate fully (unless that business is a gathering and stay awhile business).
Bottom line is we're trying to stop groups of people gathering in an enclosed environment for a long period of time.
It was riskier for sure if I had it (which is why we both got tested before we left).
We drove. 26 hours. Barf.
Especially when sun country had tickets as low as $45 one way. 😢
I’m not wearing partisan blinders at all. I recognize blunders. Actually your false equivalence arises from partisan blinders (my hunch). Yes, China town in February was a blunder. But February!?!?! Who had adjusted to the new reality then? Very few had the information that the Potus is privy to. Comparing February blunders when we were gradually accutoming ourselves to covid to April, May and beyond blunders is massive false equivalence.
The problem with your or any false equivalency is that it’s not helpful. It doesn’t help us for the future. We need to find root causes for the future. Any discussion now should look forward and not look past. We only look to the past to create a better future. False equivalences do not help the future.
A lot of vague talk here and weird examples. Let’s use a concrete, relevant example.
If a restaurant owner is allowed the freedom to operate their restaurant with indoor dining, then the people that dine there will knowingly be taking a risk. They may get sick, and spread that virus to someone else.
But at no point is someone having their freedom infringed upon in that scenario. People have been inadvertently contracting and spreading viruses since the beginning of time. The fact is, every time you leave the isolation of your house you are taking a risk. Mask/ no mask distanced or not. The fact that the world is a dangerous place and you might get sick is not a discrete example of one person infringing on another’s freedom.
Your better argument would be that people who knowingly and purposefully spread the virus are infringing on others freedom, but that’s so astronomically rare it’s not really worthy of discussion.
More than anything I was trying to figure out what constituted "critical behavior" in your opinion.
It seems like you took as many precautions as you thought necessary...which Is what I think we all need to do
You really like saying false equivalencies. Any who I just recited what happened.
Walk into any small community gas station food mart and you’ll see nobody wearing a mask, That’s been my experience over the duration of this pandemic. These people are knowing and purposely not wearing a mask and it’s not uncommon at all.
Except that might not help younger infected people who want to keep both their feet:Perhaps a lockdown of old people is really what is necessary
Head of White House security office has his right foot amputated because of severe COVID-19 and is facing 'staggering medical bills,' his friends say
Crede Bailey has been hospitalized with COVID-19 for three months but is said to be recovering, according to Bloomberg.
www.businessinsider.com
Except that might not help younger infected people who want to keep both their feet:
Head of White House security office has his right foot amputated because of severe COVID-19 and is facing 'staggering medical bills,' his friends say
Crede Bailey has been hospitalized with COVID-19 for three months but is said to be recovering, according to Bloomberg.
yes it is a shame what happened to a 54 year old in poor shape who likely wasn’t taking things seriously. Hopefully others wake up.
You’re quickly losing your pass to post NTFYS items.
all I’m saying is he wasn’t really young or healthy, but more importantly, acted recklessly. I’m still in a low risk age group but we’ve done what we are supposed to (distance, masks for others sake, limited indoor anything, etc.)
I struggle to feel empathy for people that intentionally make poor choices vs people that are born with bad luck
Thank you.
I always thought that if we simply did the four basic things....mask up, give everyone some space, wash your hands and try to avoid congregating indoors for long periods of time.... I can't complain.
I don't expect anyone to lock themselves in a bunker alone in the dark. I don't think anyone does.
But my experience of this discussion is like we are arguing between sitting alone in the dark vs purposefully coughing and spitting on each other.
I hear you and normally I agree with you.
But this thing is airborne and contagious and we know it fvcks people up. Some really badly others not so badly but it's exponential.
Meaning one person being reckless will impact an exponential amount of people.
I have a friend who got it at medium level right before Thanksgiving. He's having it a little rough but he's not going to die. He does have a whooping cough and is fatigued. He's an avid skiier and he's worried that is going to be impacted now. His kids now have it from him he believes over Thanksgiving. Blah blah blah my point is it's not really a choice like other things and it's something we can impact with the way we behave in society.
Vaccines are coming. Most pandemics last around two years.
If it was a permanent state then yeah, I'd fall more into the 'there's nothing we can really do so go live your life and don't let it dominate you' but we can make a huge impact on the spread of this thing, which is the key on if this thing is going to really fvck a lot of people up.
Vilified Early Over Lax Virus Strategy, Sweden Seems to Have Scourge Controlled (Published 2020)
After having weathered high death rates when it resisted a lockdown in the spring, Sweden now has one of Europe’s lowest rates of daily new cases. Whether that is an aberration remains to be seen.www.nytimes.com
Normalcy has never been more contentious than in Sweden. Almost alone in the Western world, the Swedes refused to impose a coronavirus lockdown last spring, as the country’s leading health officials argued that limited restrictions were sufficient and would better protect against economic collapse.
It was an approach that transformed Sweden into an unlikely ideological lightning rod. Many scientists blamed it for a spike in deaths, even as many libertarians critical of lockdowns portrayed Sweden as a model. During a recent Senate hearing in Washington, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the leading U.S. infectious disease specialist, and Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, angrily clashed over Sweden.
For their part, the Swedes admit to making some mistakes, particularly in nursing homes, where the death toll was staggering. Indeed, comparative analyses show that Sweden’s death rate at the height of the pandemic in the spring far surpassed the rates in neighboring countries and was more protracted. (Others point out that Sweden’s overall death rate is comparable to that of the United States.)
Now, though, the question is whether the country’s current low caseload, compared with sharp increases elsewhere, shows that it has found a sustainable balance, something that all Western countries are seeking eight months into the pandemic — or whether the recent numbers are just a temporary aberration.
“It looks positive,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, who gained global fame and notoriety for having kept Sweden out of lockdown in March.
With a population of 10.1 million, Sweden averaged just over 200 new cases a day for several weeks, though in recent days that number has jumped to about 380. The per capita rate is far lower than nearby Denmark or the Netherlands (if higher than the negligible rates in Norway and Finland). Sweden is also doing far better, for the moment, than Spain, with 10,000 cases a day, and France, with 12,000.
Critics say Sweden does not test for the virus as thoroughly as many other nations — with 142,000 tests for the week ending Sept. 13. Britain, with about six times the population, tested only 587,000 people in the most recent week, far less per capita than Sweden. And Britain conducted far more tests than France, Germany or Spain in that period.
In early September, 1.2 percent of tests in Sweden were positive, compared with about 7 percent currently in Northwest England, Britain’s hardest-hit area.
...
“Today, all of the European countries are more or less following the Swedish model, combined with the testing, tracing and quarantine procedures the Germans have introduced, but none will admit it,” said Antoine Flahault, director of the Institute of Global Health, in Geneva. “Instead, they made a caricature out of the Swedish strategy. Almost everyone has called it inhumane and a failure.”
...
Mr. Tegnell said that Sweden would in certain cases prescribe face masks, particularly to contain local outbreaks. And in a break from the past, he told the Dagens Nyheter newspaper that he would now even consider limited, local restrictions on movement and school closures.
But he still insists that distancing provided overall better protection than masks, which he says could give people a false sense of security.
Mr. Tegnell stressed, as he has many times before, that Sweden did not set out to achieve “herd immunity,” calling it a “myth that has been created.”
“We are happy that the number of cases is going down rapidly and we do believe immunity in the population has something to do with that,” he said in the interview, conducted just before the case numbers rose slightly. “And we hope that the immunity in the population will help us get thought this fall with cases at a low level.”
Obama
He had eight years of practice.
You like making them. It’s your closet solution to justify your Republican POTUS, who you pretend to dislike. Own it, guy.
Lol. No I dislike trump. As I dislike the Dems. You’re just a hyper partisan clown incapable of understanding same
LOL
Hyper-partisan? Don’t be ignorant. Ranger ridiculed me for my crazy ideas and Goat et al perpetually scoffed at my cries for pragmatism. I’m against abortion. Etc. I beg liberals to focus on minimizing unwanted pregnancies.
I’m hyper-against Trump, true, but that’s because I’m deeply American and love this country and what it stands for so purely and pristinely. Trump is anathema to what this country stands for. I have no inclination to ever forgive him for separating infants from their parents. Scum of the earth is heaven compared to Trump. There is no equivalence to what Trump has done to spoil and despoil our great experiment.
You and your false equivalence are dead wrong.
I posted facts. Facts about the cdc. Facts about pelosi. Facts about govs. Then your emotions re trump flooded out so you used it as a jump off for a trump rant because you are obsessed with same and a hyper partisan clown. You don’t want anyone else to share in any blame. Only trump.
Bullshit. Pure unadulterated bullshit.
I took your facts and put them in the context of our gradually increasing awareness of the severity of the problem covid posed to society. Once I did that you had no response. Instead you started attacking me. That’s what’s actually happened here in our so-called discussion.
