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Who's going to apologize to Sweden?

JamieDimonsBalls

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Normalcy has never been more contentious than in Sweden. Almost alone in the Western world, the Swedes refused to impose a coronavirus lockdown last spring, as the country’s leading health officials argued that limited restrictions were sufficient and would better protect against economic collapse.

It was an approach that transformed Sweden into an unlikely ideological lightning rod. Many scientists blamed it for a spike in deaths, even as many libertarians critical of lockdowns portrayed Sweden as a model. During a recent Senate hearing in Washington, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the leading U.S. infectious disease specialist, and Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, angrily clashed over Sweden.

For their part, the Swedes admit to making some mistakes, particularly in nursing homes, where the death toll was staggering. Indeed, comparative analyses show that Sweden’s death rate at the height of the pandemic in the spring far surpassed the rates in neighboring countries and was more protracted. (Others point out that Sweden’s overall death rate is comparable to that of the United States.)

Now, though, the question is whether the country’s current low caseload, compared with sharp increases elsewhere, shows that it has found a sustainable balance, something that all Western countries are seeking eight months into the pandemic — or whether the recent numbers are just a temporary aberration.

“It looks positive,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, who gained global fame and notoriety for having kept Sweden out of lockdown in March.

With a population of 10.1 million, Sweden averaged just over 200 new cases a day for several weeks, though in recent days that number has jumped to about 380. The per capita rate is far lower than nearby Denmark or the Netherlands (if higher than the negligible rates in Norway and Finland). Sweden is also doing far better, for the moment, than Spain, with 10,000 cases a day, and France, with 12,000.
Critics say Sweden does not test for the virus as thoroughly as many other nations — with 142,000 tests for the week ending Sept. 13. Britain, with about six times the population, tested only 587,000 people in the most recent week, far less per capita than Sweden. And Britain conducted far more tests than France, Germany or Spain in that period.

In early September, 1.2 percent of tests in Sweden were positive, compared with about 7 percent currently in Northwest England, Britain’s hardest-hit area.


...

“Today, all of the European countries are more or less following the Swedish model, combined with the testing, tracing and quarantine procedures the Germans have introduced, but none will admit it,” said Antoine Flahault, director of the Institute of Global Health, in Geneva. “Instead, they made a caricature out of the Swedish strategy. Almost everyone has called it inhumane and a failure.”

...

Mr. Tegnell said that Sweden would in certain cases prescribe face masks, particularly to contain local outbreaks. And in a break from the past, he told the Dagens Nyheter newspaper that he would now even consider limited, local restrictions on movement and school closures.

But he still insists that distancing provided overall better protection than masks, which he says could give people a false sense of security.
Mr. Tegnell stressed, as he has many times before, that Sweden did not set out to achieve “herd immunity,” calling it a “myth that has been created.”

“We are happy that the number of cases is going down rapidly and we do believe immunity in the population has something to do with that,” he said in the interview, conducted just before the case numbers rose slightly. “And we hope that the immunity in the population will help us get thought this fall with cases at a low level.”
 

Normalcy has never been more contentious than in Sweden. Almost alone in the Western world, the Swedes refused to impose a coronavirus lockdown last spring, as the country’s leading health officials argued that limited restrictions were sufficient and would better protect against economic collapse.

It was an approach that transformed Sweden into an unlikely ideological lightning rod. Many scientists blamed it for a spike in deaths, even as many libertarians critical of lockdowns portrayed Sweden as a model. During a recent Senate hearing in Washington, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the leading U.S. infectious disease specialist, and Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, angrily clashed over Sweden.

For their part, the Swedes admit to making some mistakes, particularly in nursing homes, where the death toll was staggering. Indeed, comparative analyses show that Sweden’s death rate at the height of the pandemic in the spring far surpassed the rates in neighboring countries and was more protracted. (Others point out that Sweden’s overall death rate is comparable to that of the United States.)

Now, though, the question is whether the country’s current low caseload, compared with sharp increases elsewhere, shows that it has found a sustainable balance, something that all Western countries are seeking eight months into the pandemic — or whether the recent numbers are just a temporary aberration.

“It looks positive,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, who gained global fame and notoriety for having kept Sweden out of lockdown in March.

With a population of 10.1 million, Sweden averaged just over 200 new cases a day for several weeks, though in recent days that number has jumped to about 380. The per capita rate is far lower than nearby Denmark or the Netherlands (if higher than the negligible rates in Norway and Finland). Sweden is also doing far better, for the moment, than Spain, with 10,000 cases a day, and France, with 12,000.
Critics say Sweden does not test for the virus as thoroughly as many other nations — with 142,000 tests for the week ending Sept. 13. Britain, with about six times the population, tested only 587,000 people in the most recent week, far less per capita than Sweden. And Britain conducted far more tests than France, Germany or Spain in that period.

In early September, 1.2 percent of tests in Sweden were positive, compared with about 7 percent currently in Northwest England, Britain’s hardest-hit area.


...

“Today, all of the European countries are more or less following the Swedish model, combined with the testing, tracing and quarantine procedures the Germans have introduced, but none will admit it,” said Antoine Flahault, director of the Institute of Global Health, in Geneva. “Instead, they made a caricature out of the Swedish strategy. Almost everyone has called it inhumane and a failure.”

...

Mr. Tegnell said that Sweden would in certain cases prescribe face masks, particularly to contain local outbreaks. And in a break from the past, he told the Dagens Nyheter newspaper that he would now even consider limited, local restrictions on movement and school closures.

But he still insists that distancing provided overall better protection than masks, which he says could give people a false sense of security.
Mr. Tegnell stressed, as he has many times before, that Sweden did not set out to achieve “herd immunity,” calling it a “myth that has been created.”

“We are happy that the number of cases is going down rapidly and we do believe immunity in the population has something to do with that,” he said in the interview, conducted just before the case numbers rose slightly. “And we hope that the immunity in the population will help us get thought this fall with cases at a low level.”

This article seems to be at odds with those conclusions... :


As does this one:


There are more out there including an op-ed by Scandinavian scientists basically saying don't do what Sweden tried to do (with the herd immunity approach)...

Stuff like this is why a third of the country is confused about the actual severity of this pandemic, in my opinion...

It's a I'll take my scientists over your scientists thing...

Quite confusing, which is why I try to read everything I can find on the topic, analyze the info..., and add my own commonsense to the mix when making decisions for myself and my family...

And..., I'm not trying to attack you JDB, just pointing out the conflicting info out there...
 
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This article seems to be at odds with those conclusions... :


As does this one:


There are more out there including an op-ed by Scandinavian scientists basically saying don't do what Sweden tried to do (with the herd immunity approach)...

Stuff like this is why a third of the country is confused about the actual severity of this pandemic, in my opinion...

It's a I'll take my scientists over your scientists thing...

Quite confusing, which is why I try to read everything I can find on the topic, analyze the info..., and add my own commonsense to the mix when making decisions for myself and my family...

And..., I'm not trying to attack you JDB, just pointing out the conflicting info out there...

Even in the NYT article, it acknowledges flaws with the Swedish strategy. Like the U.S., a large number of deaths were attributable to the elderly population that was not adequately protected initially. The Swedes did tighten restrictions on that "at-risk" segment and still have them maintained for now. Masks and mask-wearing is another societal/cultural issue, similar to here, though the government(s) are not imposing mandatory mask wearing.

The problem is, many of the scientists were carrying on about how terrible the Swedish strategy was while it was experiencing high death levels. Meanwhile, it's been averaging under 5 deaths per day the past few weeks, materially better than many other European counterparts, even those that imposed considerable lockdowns (e.g., Spain, Italy, France).

Now the critique is, "well, you aren't close to reaching herd immunity". The goal posts are shifting so that these critics are able to save face. Sweden is doing better than many parts of Europe, despite going with an unconventional approach.

Also, I have to imagine that their population is experiencing far less mental, behavioral and emotional distress than the U.S. and other aforementioned countries. A semblance of normalcy is nowhere to be found in many countries.
 

Normalcy has never been more contentious than in Sweden. Almost alone in the Western world, the Swedes refused to impose a coronavirus lockdown last spring, as the country’s leading health officials argued that limited restrictions were sufficient and would better protect against economic collapse.

It was an approach that transformed Sweden into an unlikely ideological lightning rod. Many scientists blamed it for a spike in deaths, even as many libertarians critical of lockdowns portrayed Sweden as a model. During a recent Senate hearing in Washington, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the leading U.S. infectious disease specialist, and Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, angrily clashed over Sweden.

For their part, the Swedes admit to making some mistakes, particularly in nursing homes, where the death toll was staggering. Indeed, comparative analyses show that Sweden’s death rate at the height of the pandemic in the spring far surpassed the rates in neighboring countries and was more protracted. (Others point out that Sweden’s overall death rate is comparable to that of the United States.)

Now, though, the question is whether the country’s current low caseload, compared with sharp increases elsewhere, shows that it has found a sustainable balance, something that all Western countries are seeking eight months into the pandemic — or whether the recent numbers are just a temporary aberration.

“It looks positive,” said Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, who gained global fame and notoriety for having kept Sweden out of lockdown in March.

With a population of 10.1 million, Sweden averaged just over 200 new cases a day for several weeks, though in recent days that number has jumped to about 380. The per capita rate is far lower than nearby Denmark or the Netherlands (if higher than the negligible rates in Norway and Finland). Sweden is also doing far better, for the moment, than Spain, with 10,000 cases a day, and France, with 12,000.
Critics say Sweden does not test for the virus as thoroughly as many other nations — with 142,000 tests for the week ending Sept. 13. Britain, with about six times the population, tested only 587,000 people in the most recent week, far less per capita than Sweden. And Britain conducted far more tests than France, Germany or Spain in that period.

In early September, 1.2 percent of tests in Sweden were positive, compared with about 7 percent currently in Northwest England, Britain’s hardest-hit area.


...

“Today, all of the European countries are more or less following the Swedish model, combined with the testing, tracing and quarantine procedures the Germans have introduced, but none will admit it,” said Antoine Flahault, director of the Institute of Global Health, in Geneva. “Instead, they made a caricature out of the Swedish strategy. Almost everyone has called it inhumane and a failure.”

...

Mr. Tegnell said that Sweden would in certain cases prescribe face masks, particularly to contain local outbreaks. And in a break from the past, he told the Dagens Nyheter newspaper that he would now even consider limited, local restrictions on movement and school closures.

But he still insists that distancing provided overall better protection than masks, which he says could give people a false sense of security.
Mr. Tegnell stressed, as he has many times before, that Sweden did not set out to achieve “herd immunity,” calling it a “myth that has been created.”

“We are happy that the number of cases is going down rapidly and we do believe immunity in the population has something to do with that,” he said in the interview, conducted just before the case numbers rose slightly. “And we hope that the immunity in the population will help us get thought this fall with cases at a low level.”

How about we look at the scoreboard.

Three countries right next to each other with Sweden in the middle.

Norway - 274 deaths
Finland - 345 deaths
Sweden - 5890 deaths.

Now we're not done with this by a longshot but it's looking like Sweden has less than a one millionth of a percent to win in the fewest lives lost scoreboard in the Nordic countries.
 
Sweden appears to be in a crisis with COVID:

But with ski lifts, restaurants and bars all remaining open, Sweden’s tougher restrictions still pale in comparison to the rest of Europe and there are mounting concerns that not enough is being done. Intensive-care beds in hospitals in the Stockholm region are all currently occupied, Bjorn Eriksson, a regional health director, said at a news conference on Tuesday.​
“We are far beyond 100 percent of capacity in intensive care. We are approaching almost double the number of available spaces,” he said.​


Their king just made public statements against their policies, and Sweden has now decided to move education for those over 13 online. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55347021

Sweden has double the population of Norway and also double Finland. In COVID deaths, Sweden has 7,667 and Norway has 395 and Finland 466. https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se
 
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Indiana: 7,101 deaths so far. The Swedes are doing better than Indiana and we have less than 7 million people compared to there 10 million.
 
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Sweden appears to be in a crisis with COVID:

But with ski lifts, restaurants and bars all remaining open, Sweden’s tougher restrictions still pale in comparison to the rest of Europe and there are mounting concerns that not enough is being done. Intensive-care beds in hospitals in the Stockholm region are all currently occupied, Bjorn Eriksson, a regional health director, said at a news conference on Tuesday.​
“We are far beyond 100 percent of capacity in intensive care. We are approaching almost double the number of available spaces,” he said.​


Their king just made public statements against their policies, and Sweden has now decided to move education for those over 13 online. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55347021

Sweden has double the population of Norway and also double Finland. In COVID deaths, Sweden has 7,667 and Norway has 395 and Finland 466. https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se

Perhaps a lockdown of old people is really what is necessary

nLJfmg0.png
 
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Perhaps a lockdown of old people is really what is necessary

nLJfmg0.png

It is AWFUL hard to wall off one segment of the population from another. People need food, people need medicine (especially that group). To wall them off, you would have to wall them off, you would have to wall off their caretakers. You would have to wall off everyone the caretakers come into contact with. So we have all doctors, nurses, physical therapists, and their families walled off as well as cafeteria workers and janitors. Now if a young person gets sick, who do they go see?
 
It is AWFUL hard to wall off one segment of the population from another. People need food, people need medicine (especially that group). To wall them off, you would have to wall them off, you would have to wall off their caretakers. You would have to wall off everyone the caretakers come into contact with. So we have all doctors, nurses, physical therapists, and their families walled off as well as cafeteria workers and janitors. Now if a young person gets sick, who do they go see?
I give our pandemic response an F. And unlike the hyper partisan shills on this board blame reaches everyone. Let’s do a run down:

Pres - F. Masks. Horrible messaging. Doesn’t listen to those who know better.
Fauci - C- lost credibility to too many with mask blunder.
CDC - F - this is what they do. Labs a mess. F’d up test kits. Outmoded tracking info. Mixed messages. Despite a massive budget.
Politicians - F - pelosi China town. Clowns in ny gov. Desantis. On and on.
Media - F - politically motivated scare tactics. Cases. Cases. Cases. Masks. Masks. Masks. Not death rates. Not recovery rates. Not vitamins. Get in shape. Just scary scary scary trump bad.
Citizens - F - masks; endless protests half the time over cases where nothing was done wrong fueled by Harris idiocy and Hollywood and athletes and the media; trump redneck rallies and redneck militia fools; parties; spring break; kids being kids.

On and on. But all of that is just the ugly underbelly of America being America. What’s sad, egregious, and frankly negligent is the massive percentage of deaths that occurred in nursing homes. This is a controlled captive audience. With testing and adequate gatekeeping measures a significant number of these deaths should have never occurred. Testing and logistics. I guarantee a fleecing of the facts of these deaths would reveal widespread negligence in not testing and monitoring the comings and goings of these places.
 
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It is AWFUL hard to wall off one segment of the population from another. People need food, people need medicine (especially that group). To wall them off, you would have to wall them off, you would have to wall off their caretakers. You would have to wall off everyone the caretakers come into contact with. So we have all doctors, nurses, physical therapists, and their families walled off as well as cafeteria workers and janitors. Now if a young person gets sick, who do they go see?

Perfect example of why Sweden chose the approach it did. Old people are damned if you lock down and damned if you don't.
 
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So their deaths compared to Finland and Norway show that Sweden's choice worked?

The two neighbors that instituted brief lockdowns in March followed by considerably less stringent measures than other countries that have experienced significantly higher deaths, even compared to Sweden?

Fql0dHk.png



It's impossible to sit here and say this is or isn't the right way to do things, but we although lockdowns can help bend the curve, they seem to be a band aid solution. Long-term lockdowns aren't logical in Western societies.
 
The two neighbors that instituted brief lockdowns in March followed by considerably less stringent measures than other countries that have experienced significantly higher deaths, even compared to Sweden?

Fql0dHk.png



It's impossible to sit here and say this is or isn't the right way to do things, but we although lockdowns can help bend the curve, they seem to be a band aid solution. Long-term lockdowns aren't logical in Western societies.

I think we all agree long-term lockdowns are not a choice. The current US methodology is to pretty much do nothing until the virus is rampant then do small measures. I am not sure that has worked.
 
I think we all agree long-term lockdowns are not a choice. The current US methodology is to pretty much do nothing until the virus is rampant then do small measures. I am not sure that has worked.

I'm genuinely curious where you live that you see the U.S. as "doing nothing"? I haven't left the house without wearing a mask since April, even when things were better last summer every bar and restaurant was socially distanced and for the most part outdoors. Do you really believe Chicago's city government has been "doing nothing"? Yet we're getting slammed.

How about a little humility in realizing that you actually don't have all the answers Marv, no one does. But it's easy to cast stones 'aint it?
 
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I'm genuinely curious where you live that you see the U.S. as "doing nothing"? I haven't left the house without wearing a mask since April, even when things were better last summer every bar and restaurant was socially distanced and for the most part outdoors. Do you really think Chicago's city government has been "doing nothing", yet we're getting slammed.

How about a little humility in realizing that you actually don't have all the answers Marv, no one does.

Pretty much do nothing. Indiana went to stage 5, which was pretty close to business as usual for much of the fall. We were deep into a problem before anyone started moving back toward doing something because the governor didn't want to touch the issue before the election. South Dakota, North Dakota, Florida, Texas, have all been in various states of denial that a problem even exists. We know that social distancing dropped going into fall (https://news.gallup.com/poll/322064/americans-social-distancing-habits-tapered-july.aspx).

Actually, I know I don't know everything so I listen to the experts. The experts have suggested we aren't doing enough to slow the spread. And the numbers that have appeared in the last month seem to confirm that.
 
South Dakota, North Dakota, Florida, Texas, have all been in various states of denial that a problem even exists.

But what's interesting about this is some of the states that did less (WI for example) have the amount of deaths per capita than states that took more aggressive measures (MN). So how should one interpret the actual impact of measures?
 
Pretty much do nothing. Indiana went to stage 5, which was pretty close to business as usual for much of the fall. We were deep into a problem before anyone started moving back toward doing something because the governor didn't want to touch the issue before the election. South Dakota, North Dakota, Florida, Texas, have all been in various states of denial that a problem even exists. We know that social distancing dropped going into fall (https://news.gallup.com/poll/322064/americans-social-distancing-habits-tapered-july.aspx).

Actually, I know I don't know everything so I listen to the experts. The experts have suggested we aren't doing enough to slow the spread. And the numbers that have appeared in the last month seem to confirm that.

Experts as in immunologists and virologists? You realize they only look at Covid through one lens right? Their opinion is crucial but not the only factor to be weighed. You already agreed that full scale lockdown is not a good idea, so now our only disagreement is on the degree of protection measures. Florida & Texas really aren't the examples you want to highlight, DeSantis and Abbott have done a better job balancing the health/ economic concerns and conveying a clear message than pretty much any other politician in the country. They both get an A for their management of the pandemic in my book.

Explain why we're suffering up here in Chicago, despite some of the best mask adherence in the country. I get a kick out of the fact that all of us knew winter was going to see Covid coming back fast and furious and now people want to act surprised that it actually did? It's tough for people like yourself and Democratic politicians to admit just how little control you actually have over the spread of this virus, but once you get yourself to that point it's actually kind of liberating. That's not to say we shouldn't take common sense mitigation steps obviously, which Americans are by and large doing.
 
But what's interesting about this is some of the states that did less (WI for example) have the amount of deaths per capita than states that took more aggressive measures (MN). So how should one interpret the actual impact of measures?
Exactly. My county has been on full lockdown with no better results than the wide open neighboring county
 
Cue the "people don't cross county lines" folks.
yup. i honestly don't know what the explanation is for it tho. it's kind of interesting. there's a large suburb called chesterfield that divides the two counties and the police yesterday announced they are no longer going to enforce saint louis county's restrictions
 
How about we look at the scoreboard.

Three countries right next to each other with Sweden in the middle.

Norway - 274 deaths
Finland - 345 deaths
Sweden - 5890 deaths.

Now we're not done with this by a longshot but it's looking like Sweden has less than a one millionth of a percent to win in the fewest lives lost scoreboard in the Nordic countries.

You cannot use raw numbers for comparison. Sweden has twice the population of either of those countries. Add them together and then you can compare. Sweden still comes off looking worse on the death curve but there are other things to factor too: mental health, economic output or decline, etc.
 
You cannot use raw numbers for comparison. Sweden has twice the population of either of those countries. Add them together and then you can compare. Sweden still comes off looking worse on the death curve but there are other things to factor too: mental health, economic output or decline, etc.

Comparing countries/ states in general is a pretty useless exercise, way too many variables at play and you'll never control for all of them.

That kind of attitude doesn't make for good political point scoring though.
 
Comparing countries/ states in general is a pretty useless exercise, way too many variables at play and you'll never control for all of them.

That kind of attitude doesn't make for good political point scoring though.
another spot on post. damn!! hoodatguy is right! benchwarmer. hmmmm. you wouldn't happen to live in colorado would you?
 
I give our pandemic response an F. And unlike the hyper partisan shills on this board blame reaches everyone. Let’s do a run down:

Pres - F. Masks. Horrible messaging. Doesn’t listen to those who know better.
Fauci - C- lost credibility to too many with mask blunder.
CDC - F - this is what they do. Labs a mess. F’d up test kits. Outmoded tracking info. Mixed messages. Despite a massive budget.
Politicians - F - pelosi China town. Clowns in ny gov. Desantis. On and on.
Media - F - politically motivated scare tactics. Cases. Cases. Cases. Masks. Masks. Masks. Not death rates. Not recovery rates. Not vitamins. Get in shape. Just scary scary scary trump bad.
Citizens - F - masks; endless protests half the time over cases where nothing was done wrong fueled by Harris idiocy and Hollywood and athletes and the media; trump redneck rallies and redneck militia fools; parties; spring break; kids being kids.

On and on. But all of that is just the ugly underbelly of America being America. What’s sad, egregious, and frankly negligent is the massive percentage of deaths that occurred in nursing homes. This is a controlled captive audience. With testing and adequate gatekeeping measures a significant number of these deaths should have never occurred. Testing and logistics. I guarantee a fleecing of the facts of these deaths would reveal widespread negligence in not testing and monitoring the comings and goings of these places.
mcm: F
Egregious False Equivalence on CDC, which is headed by CEO of Gov’t Trump, and got the guidelines pretty right, pretty early on; on Fauci, who had an initial blunder that he corrected way early on; on D politicians, Pelosi has been publicly wearing a mask from early on; on liberals, who have been far more willing to abide by covid protocol.
 
mcm: F
Egregious False Equivalence on CDC, which is headed by CEO of Gov’t Trump, and got the guidelines pretty right, pretty early on; on Fauci, who had an initial blunder that he corrected way early on; on D politicians, Pelosi has been publicly wearing a mask from early on; on liberals, who have been far more willing to abide by covid protocol.
CDC is comprised of lifetime employees on the general schedule: NYT: "The CDC waited it's entire existence for this moment: what went wrong." trump's influence contributed to in some instances and is independent from in other instances their material blunders
Pelosi - china town in late february encouraging visitors to hit china town and san fran etc.
Fauci - the blunder was material and meaningful because it eroded trust and allowed for politicization
liberals - far more willing to lockdown. jury is out on the validity of that measure.

you're wearing your partisan blinders again. blame reaches across party lines and includes govt agencies that were asleep at the wheel, as well as our own citizenry.
 
CDC is comprised of lifetime employees on the general schedule: NYT: "The CDC waited it's entire existence for this moment: what went wrong." trump's influence contributed to in some instances and is independent from in other instances their material blunders
Pelosi - china town in late february encouraging visitors to hit china town and san fran etc.
Fauci - the blunder was material and meaningful because it eroded trust and allowed for politicization
liberals - far more willing to lockdown. jury is out on the validity of that measure.

you're wearing your partisan blinders again. blame reaches across party lines and includes govt agencies that were asleep at the wheel, as well as our own citizenry.
Liberal: "promotes individual rights, civil liberties, and free enterprise"
Have self identified "liberals" lived up to this definition during the pandemic?
 
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