Who is the bigger threat to democracy trump or biden?

[mcmurtry66]

Americans agree that the future of democracy is on the line in the 2024 election but disagree about who poses the biggest threat

In a politically polarized nation, Americans seem to agree on one issue underlying the 2024 elections — a worry over the state of democracy and how the outcome of the presidential contest will affect its future.

www.pbs.org

to those polled it looks pretty evenly split between trump and biden. absurd we can't get rid of both. that seems like something most of america actually agree on

 

[Ohio Guy]

Americans agree that the future of democracy is on the line in the 2024 election but disagree about who poses the biggest threat

In a politically polarized nation, Americans seem to agree on one issue underlying the 2024 elections — a worry over the state of democracy and how the outcome of the presidential contest will affect its future.

www.pbs.org

to those polled it looks pretty evenly split between trump and biden. absurd we can't get rid of both. that seems like something most of america actually agree on

I found this blurb from that article maddening:


“I think from the side of the left, it’s pretty obvious that they’re concerned about electing a president who is avowedly authoritarian, someone who clearly wants to reduce checks and balances within the government to strengthen the presidency and to do so in ways that give the executive branch kind of an unprecedented reach across the population and sectors of the government,” said Michael Albertus, political science professor at the University of Chicago.

“From the right, the Republicans think about government overreach, big government, threats to freedom and mandates to act in a certain way or adopt certain policies,” he said.

Those two aren't remotely the same thing, nor are they close to equal existential threats to democracy. Government overreach is much easy to fix or reign in than authoritarianism with checks and balances removed. Also, Trump is actually making authoritarian promises for his next term; a lot of the 'fears' from the right about Biden are suppositions.

 

[SqueakyClean]

Those two aren't remotely the same thing, nor are they close to equal existential threats to democracy. Government overreach is much easy to fix or reign in than authoritarianism with checks and balances removed. Also, Trump is actually making authoritarian promises for his next term; a lot of the 'fears' from the right about Biden are suppositions.

In fairness here, Trump "making authoritarian promises" is Trump blustering away with words that he knows his hardcore base goes crazy for. Making authoritarian promises and fulfilling them are two different things. I suspect most of the things Trump would WANT to do are things that the existing checks and balances will not LET him do. So alot of those things that left leaning folks fear could be labeled as suppositions as well.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I found this blurb from that article maddening:


“I think from the side of the left, it’s pretty obvious that they’re concerned about electing a president who is avowedly authoritarian, someone who clearly wants to reduce checks and balances within the government to strengthen the presidency and to do so in ways that give the executive branch kind of an unprecedented reach across the population and sectors of the government,” said Michael Albertus, political science professor at the University of Chicago.

“From the right, the Republicans think about government overreach, big government, threats to freedom and mandates to act in a certain way or adopt certain policies,” he said.

Those two aren't remotely the same thing, nor are they close to equal existential threats to democracy. Government overreach is much easy to fix or reign in than authoritarianism with checks and balances removed. Also, Trump is actually making authoritarian promises for his next term; a lot of the 'fears' from the right about Biden are suppositions.

i would be in the group that believes neither trump nor biden are a threat to democracy. i believe both sides have arguments for their beliefs but they are largely partisan and politicized. the checks and balances have held true with just minor exceptions.

it's interesting times as so much of this "democracy challenge" talk really centers around covid and the divisions that it created and the power of our institutions as well as their failures from mandates to voting changes. as i said before we could use smart, competent, leaders at this time and it's a shame trump and biden are who we have. it's a shame trump and biden are who we had during the pandemic

 

[mcmurtry66]

I found this blurb from that article maddening:


“I think from the side of the left, it’s pretty obvious that they’re concerned about electing a president who is avowedly authoritarian, someone who clearly wants to reduce checks and balances within the government to strengthen the presidency and to do so in ways that give the executive branch kind of an unprecedented reach across the population and sectors of the government,” said Michael Albertus, political science professor at the University of Chicago.

“From the right, the Republicans think about government overreach, big government, threats to freedom and mandates to act in a certain way or adopt certain policies,” he said.

Those two aren't remotely the same thing, nor are they close to equal existential threats to democracy. Government overreach is much easy to fix or reign in than authoritarianism with checks and balances removed. Also, Trump is actually making authoritarian promises for his next term; a lot of the 'fears' from the right about Biden are suppositions.

i think it's interesting that more independents find biden a bigger threat than trump. so as the dems beat this trump is a threat drum just as many folks are pointing right back believing biden is the worse threat. probably better to stop all that talk and figure out who is better for policies.

 

[Bloom.]

In fairness here, Trump "making authoritarian promises" is Trump blustering away with words that he knows his hardcore base goes crazy for. Making authoritarian promises and fulfilling them are two different things. I suspect most of the things Trump would WANT to do are things that the existing checks and balances will not LET him do. So alot of those things that left leaning folks fear could be labeled as suppositions as well.

If you don't think he would've found a way to delay the election results, that he wouldn't have entrenched himself even more, down to considering use of the military, you're fooling yourself.

There is no question if he wins in 2024, he will work to find a way to stay in power beyond 2028. Not saying he will be successful, but I doubt very much it will be peaceful.

 

[Bowlmania]

Hilarious. This is a close call only for the "Everything Equals Everything" Club.

Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. One more time - - Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. He took a dump on this cornerstone of American democracy (elections) and he took a wrecking ball to the time-honored tradition of the peaceful transfer of power. I never imagined I would ever see this from a United States president. It's as disgraceful and as bad as it gets.

And it didn't stop on January 6. He continues to undermine confidence in our electoral system, something typically seen in backsliding democracies that are moving to authoritarianism. He's vowed revenge against his political enemies, and a number of close confidants have publicly confirmed that that is, in fact, the plan. They've also confirmed that there won't be any John Kellys, Jim Mattises or Mike Pences in a second Trump administration. He'll be surrounded by loyalists and yes-men who will be more than willing to do his personal bidding. He'll expand executive power, he'll pardon the Jan 6 rioters and himself, and he'll continue his assault on the rule of law.

God help America.

 

[BradStevens]

Americans agree that the future of democracy is on the line in the 2024 election but disagree about who poses the biggest threat

In a politically polarized nation, Americans seem to agree on one issue underlying the 2024 elections — a worry over the state of democracy and how the outcome of the presidential contest will affect its future.

www.pbs.org

to those polled it looks pretty evenly split between trump and biden. absurd we can't get rid of both. that seems like something most of america actually agree on

Meh. I think of that stuff as just campaign rhetoric nowadays. Ridiculous, over the top, harmful rhetoric, but mostly just talk.

Unfortunately, it gives people cover to engage in bad behavior since the dreamed up consequences are imagined to be so dire. Elevating ends over means is the true threat to our democratic institutions.

If you don't think he would've found a way to delay the election results, that he wouldn't have entrenched himself even more, down to considering use of the military, you're fooling yourself.

There is no question if he wins in 2024, he will work to find a way to stay in power beyond 2028. Not saying he will be successful, but I doubt very much it will be peaceful.

Ridiculous. If he tries it, plenty of Republicans--every single Trump supporter on this board included--would turn on him. Same for if Biden tried it and the Dems.

You don't need to turn Trump into Hitler to combat him.

 

[mcmurtry66]

In fairness here, Trump "making authoritarian promises" is Trump blustering away with words that he knows his hardcore base goes crazy for. Making authoritarian promises and fulfilling them are two different things. I suspect most of the things Trump would WANT to do are things that the existing checks and balances will not LET him do. So alot of those things that left leaning folks fear could be labeled as suppositions as well.

concur

 

[mcmurtry66]

Meh. I think of that stuff as just campaign rhetoric nowadays. Ridiculous, over the top, harmful rhetoric, but mostly just talk.

Unfortunately, it gives people cover to engage in bad behavior since the dreamed up consequences are imagined to be so dire. Elevating ends over means is the true threat to our democratic institutions.

Ridiculous. If he tries it, plenty of Republicans--every single Trump supported on this board included--would turn on him. Same for if Biden tried it and the Dems.

You don't need to turn Trump into Hitler to combat him.

agreed on all fronts

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

i would be in the group that believes neither trump nor biden are a threat to democracy. i believe both sides have arguments for their beliefs but they are largely partisan and politicized. the checks and balances have held true with just minor exceptions.

it's interesting times as so much of this "democracy challenge" talk really centers around covid and the divisions that it created and the power of our institutions as well as their failures from mandates to voting changes. as i said before we could use smart, competent, leaders at this time and it's a shame trump and biden are who we have. it's a shame trump and biden are who we had during the pandemic

Why should someone be elected that we know is going to test those checks and balances?

The worst thing levied at biden is that he is old/dementia. That is no where near the threat of someone actively seeking to be a dictator and we are left to rely on checks and balances to prevent his worst impulses.

 

[BradStevens]

Hilarious. This is a close call only for the "Everything Equals Everything" Club.

Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. One more time - - Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. He took a dump on this cornerstone of American democracy (elections) and he took a wrecking ball to the time-honored tradition of the peaceful transfer of power. I never imagined I would ever see this from a United States president. It's as disgraceful and as bad as it gets.

And it didn't stop on January 6. He continues to undermine confidence in our electoral system, something typically seen in backsliding democracies that are moving to authoritarianism. He's vowed revenge against his political enemies, and a number of close confidants have publicly confirmed that that is, in fact, the plan. They've also confirmed that there won't be any John Kellys, Jim Mattises or Mike Pences in a second Trump administration. He'll be surrounded by loyalists and yes-men who will be more than willing to do his personal bidding. He'll expand executive power, he'll pardon the Jan 6 rioters and himself, and he'll continue his assault on the rule of law.

God help America.

My two cents:

We don't need God. The judicial branch will stop the worst you fear from happening, including Trump appointees (and if he appoints dummies and loyalists like you say, it will be that much easier, as shown during his last term). Federalism will also act as a bulwark, along with an independent military, filled with generals at the top who respect civilian rule and democracy. And if this is the biggest threat to the United States, maybe the Dems should move to the middle to stop this and win back the House? That, too, would hobble any bad intentions from Trump.

Does this mean Trump couldn't do damage to the country if determined to do so? Nope. And I agree with you that the worst thing he did while in office was call the election stolen and engage in a Big Lie. But our institutions shut that lie down quickly and absolutely. The odds our democratic institutions will end with a Trump reelection are ridiculously low--think IU winning the National Championship next year in football low.

Our institutions are strong and resilient, as shown by their response to the last Trump administration. They become weakened each time we change their use and our norms to go after one man because we've bought into the hyperbole that he's some kind of mini-Hitler. He's not.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Meh. I think of that stuff as just campaign rhetoric nowadays. Ridiculous, over the top, harmful rhetoric, but mostly just talk.

Unfortunately, it gives people cover to engage in bad behavior since the dreamed up consequences are imagined to be so dire. Elevating ends over means is the true threat to our democratic institutions.

Ridiculous. If he tries it, plenty of Republicans--every single Trump supporter on this board included--would turn on him. Same for if Biden tried it and the Dems.

You don't need to turn Trump into Hitler to combat him.

We thought Republicans would turn on Trump for Jan 6. You give that party way too much credit for drawing a line. So far there hasn't been a line they wouldn't cross for Trump.

A few tried to draw the line at Jan 6 only to notice voters were still supportive of Trump. Hence the backtracking and kissing the ring so to speak afterwards in Mar-a-lago. Fellow republican politicians don't have any line until they see voters turn on trump.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Why should someone be elected that we know is going to test those checks and balances?

The worst thing levied at biden is that he is old/dementia. That is no where near the threat of someone actively seeking to be a dictator and we are left to rely on checks and balances to prevent his worst impulses.

You didnt or can’t read the article

 

[PhyloeBedoe]

So much trust here that Trump will not do the thing that he’s said he would do. His main platform for reelection is revenge. And you guys are good with that.

 

[mcmurtry66]

My two cents:

We don't need God. The judicial branch will stop the worst you fear from happening, including Trump appointees (and if he appoints dummies and loyalists like you say, it will be that much easier, as shown during his last term). Federalism will also act as a bulwark, along with an independent military, filled with generals at the top who respect civilian rule and democracy. And if this is the biggest threat to the United States, maybe the Dems should move to the middle to stop this and win back the House? That, too, would hobble any bad intentions from Trump.

Does this mean Trump couldn't do damage to the country if determined to do so? Nope. And I agree with you that the worst thing he did while in office was call the election stolen and engage in a Big Lie. But our institutions shut that lie down quickly and absolutely. The odds our democratic institutions will end with a Trump reelection are ridiculously low--think IU winning the National Championship next year in football low.

Our institutions are strong and resilient, as shown by their response to the last Trump administration. They become weakened each time we change their use and our norms to go after one man because we've bought into the hyperbole that he's some kind of mini-Hitler. He's not.

my sentiments to the letter. i don't know why so many can't grasp as much

 

[BradStevens]

We thought Republicans would turn on Trump for Jan 6. You give that party way too much credit for drawing a line. So far there hasn't been a line they wouldn't cross for Trump.

A few tried to draw the line at Jan 6 only to notice voters were still supportive of Trump. Hence the backtracking and kissing the ring so to speak afterwards in Mar-a-lago. Fellow republican politicians don't have any line until they see voters turn on trump.

So to be clear here: you believe a significant percentage of Republicans want Donald Trump to become a dictator and violate the Twenty-Second Amendment?

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

So much trust here that Trump will not do the thing that he’s said he would do. His main platform for reelection is revenge. And you guys are good with that.

Comparing the threat of Biden to the threat of Trump is asinine to begin with.

The worst thing that can be said about Biden is his age and possible dementia (not proven). Even if he was a turnip and other people in his administration were controlling him behind the scenes, that is still a far cry from letting the soon to be felon back in office who tried to steal the last election.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

So to be clear here: you believe a significant percentage of Republicans want Donald Trump to become a dictator and violate the Twenty-Second Amendment?

no, they will claim he is just ridding us of the deep state. They'll continue to be delusional about him like they are now and everything he has already done.

They won't actually acknowledge he is a dictator and they don't care much about any amendments after the 2nd.

Did they turn on him for trying to steal an election? hardly.

 

[DANC]

i would be in the group that believes neither trump nor biden are a threat to democracy. i believe both sides have arguments for their beliefs but they are largely partisan and politicized. the checks and balances have held true with just minor exceptions.

it's interesting times as so much of this "democracy challenge" talk really centers around covid and the divisions that it created and the power of our institutions as well as their failures from mandates to voting changes. as i said before we could use smart, competent, leaders at this time and it's a shame trump and biden are who we have. it's a shame trump and biden are who we had during the pandemic

I don't think an individual is a threat to Democracy. I do think Democrats, and their desire to control our lives, is a real threat to our Republic, or at least our Justice system.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I don't think an individual is a threat to Democracy. I do think Democrats, and their desire to control our lives, is a real threat to our Republic, or at least our Justice system.

that was the point of the other side's perspective

 

[DANC]

that was the point of the other side's perspective

Probably should have read the article. lol

 

[mcmurtry66]

Probably should have read the article. lol

hit and run posting son. that's how we became the dream team. covering so much ground

 

[DANC]

Americans agree that the future of democracy is on the line in the 2024 election but disagree about who poses the biggest threat

In a politically polarized nation, Americans seem to agree on one issue underlying the 2024 elections — a worry over the state of democracy and how the outcome of the presidential contest will affect its future.

www.pbs.org

to those polled it looks pretty evenly split between trump and biden. absurd we can't get rid of both. that seems like something most of america actually agree on

The lady who is complaining there are roadblocks to blacks voting...... give me a freaking break.

 

[Cthulhu85]

The voting public is the biggest threat.

 

[Bloom.]

Ridiculous. If he tries it, plenty of Republicans--every single Trump supporter on this board included--would turn on him. Same for if Biden tried it and the Dems.

You don't need to turn Trump into Hitler to combat him.

Oh yeah?

Still a lot of idiotic takes in here that the election was stolen. Still plenty of people in here who would rather see Trump than Biden, despite Trump's efforts to overturn an election.

That you'd link Biden in that context is pretty revealing. There is nothing to suggest he wouldn't capitulate the traditions that go along with the transfer of power, let alone the legal transfer of power.

You're not exactly the dissenter type.

 

[Bloom.]

I don't think an individual is a threat to Democracy. I do think Democrats, and their desire to control our lives, is a real threat to our Republic, or at least our Justice system.

How are the democrats trying to control your life?

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

How are the democrats trying to control your life?

Trying to force him to be more accepting of others maybe lol

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

If you don't think he would've found a way to delay the election results, that he wouldn't have entrenched himself even more, down to considering use of the military, you're fooling yourself.

There is no question if he wins in 2024, he will work to find a way to stay in power beyond 2028. Not saying he will be successful, but I doubt very much it will be peaceful.

Highly unlikely that fatass Trump will be alive in 2028.

Or Sleepy Joe, for that matter.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Can’t we just agree that neither should be president? I’d settle for that.

 

[BradStevens]

Oh yeah?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Can’t we just agree that neither should be president? I’d settle for that.

Amen. Or either have the awareness to recognize the election will be razor close so don’t be transformative when half the country doesn’t want it and don’t be a revengeful prick when half the country doesn’t want it. Whatever you think of the other side they think of you. Including being a “threat to democracy “

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

fantasyland thinking trump supporters would turn on him

They haven't yet so not sure what your rationale is for thinking they ever would other than hopes and dreams.

Trump is campaigning on being a dictator (even if just for a day). Even if people want to pretend that he is just grandstanding for his supporters. it's a sad day in politics if you have to pretend to be worse than you are in order to get votes (although i see no reason not to believe trump besides doubting that he limits it to 1 day).

 

[mcmurtry66]

fantasyland thinking trump supporters would turn on him

They haven't yet so not sure what your rationale is for thinking they ever would other than hopes and dreams.

I will vote trump over Biden or Newsom or Harris. I would turn on trump

 

[Ohio Guy]

So to be clear here: you believe a significant percentage of Republicans want Donald Trump to become a dictator and violate the Twenty-Second Amendment?

I honestly don't know what the majority of Republican lawmakers want these days. I do know one thing; they've proven time and time again that they won't stand up to Trump and the certainly won't turn on him.

I think it's less a matter of what they want him to do/become and more a matter of how recklessly they'll just give him a pass to do and say whatever he wants.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I will vote trump over Biden or Newsom or Harris. I would turn on trump

In terms or legislators/elected officials and the Republican electorate, you're in the vast minority. How many points is he up in the polls? What happens to any elected official that Trump deems disloyal?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Hilarious. This is a close call only for the "Everything Equals Everything" Club.

Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. One more time - - Trump corruptly and illegally tried to overturn an election that he lost. He took a dump on this cornerstone of American democracy (elections) and he took a wrecking ball to the time-honored tradition of the peaceful transfer of power. I never imagined I would ever see this from a United States president. It's as disgraceful and as bad as it gets.

And it didn't stop on January 6. He continues to undermine confidence in our electoral system, something typically seen in backsliding democracies that are moving to authoritarianism. He's vowed revenge against his political enemies, and a number of close confidants have publicly confirmed that that is, in fact, the plan. They've also confirmed that there won't be any John Kellys, Jim Mattises or Mike Pences in a second Trump administration. He'll be surrounded by loyalists and yes-men who will be more than willing to do his personal bidding. He'll expand executive power, he'll pardon the Jan 6 rioters and himself, and he'll continue his assault on the rule of law.

God help America.

I think you got Trump figured correctly. His authoritarianism is almost entirely him running his mouth. During his term, until Election Day, his actions didn’t match his rhetoric. After the 2020 election, most of what he did which his opponents claim was authoritarian is simply shooting off his mouth. While in office, he used the system to impose his ideas. Most of the time it worked, sometimes it didn’t. I don’t think working within the system, is authoritarian.

Biden is different. He has the constitutional duty, reinforced by his sworn oath, to faithfully execute the laws of the United States. He not only refuses, but in the case of the southern border he repudiates said laws. He does the same with budget authority. And no president in my memory has so frequently used intimidation to affect state legislation. That’s authoritarian on steroids. And don’t forget the accounting errors he used to get areound congress and the Supreme Court.

 

[Ohio Guy]

Highly unlikely that fatass Trump will be alive in 2028.

Or Sleepy Joe, for that matter.

I won't wish ill will on anyone, but honestly, I kind of hope Trump isn't alive in 2028. I think that's the only way the GOP stops kissing his ass and letting him get away with whatever he wants to do or say. I hope that a level of common sense would return to the party as well, but that might be too far a leap.

 

[Bloom.]

Can’t we just agree that neither should be president? I’d settle for that.

That could be, but I don't view Biden as a threat to democracy. He's not trying to change how government works, which isn't specifically a positive but isn't a threat, and he's not working to alienate or undercut our allies.

 

[mcmurtry66]

In terms or legislators/elected officials and the Republican electorate, you're in the vast minority. How many points is he up in the polls? What happens to any elected official that Trump deems disloyal?

i don't think so. many of the people i know are now anyone but biden, and will vote for trump, like myself. they believe in the institutions and believe they will keep him in check as they have done. and if he won't leave in 2028 i'd be there with anyone else to boot him out