No, that's not what it means. But, again, the fact that you can't tell the difference pretty much gives your answer to my original question.
What’s wrong with people?
- Thread starter snarlcakes
- Start date
Let me try rephrasing it like this: transgender is when a person's gender and physical sex are misaligned. Is that clearer?
The issue with the 'gender affirming care therapy is an immoral evil that needs to be eliminated' argument is pretty simple....it has worked like a motherfu$$a and there are no counter solutions that can generate close to the same outcomes.
Suicide rates are down significantly (73%) after starting gender affirming therapy.
https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicid...gender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care
On the flip side, suicide rates nearly double for those that have gone through 'conversion therapy'.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgb-suicide-ct-press-release/
The largest source for suicide is due to outside forces, not from an internal struggle (ie everyone calling them freaks with mental issues).
From the Trevor Project summary: 'LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society'
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Now it's showing that regret rates for those who end up having surgical procedures are waaay less than the regret rates for those having standard procedures, including life saving procedures (just 1% have regrets out of 8000 examples compared to the average of 14%).
https://www.gendergp.com/new-study-...of-gender-affirming-surgery-are-non-existent/
So you have a very small group of people who are asking for gender affirming care that ultimately is saving lives....but, of course, there are a large group of people with absolutely no skin in the game (because if you did and it was your child that was a suicidal time bomb, I'm pretty sure you'd want the option to potentially save their lives) trying to tell others what is best, even if we know the solution doing nothing but denial raises the odds significantly that they'll die.
To me that's the crux of the argument. Until you can prove that gender affirming care doesn't provide potential life saving treatments, or you have a solution that generates even better results...the argument against is DOA.
Other notes to add.
The overwhelming majority of this gender affirming therapy program is counseling. As mentioned, the very few people that do something permanent before they are an adult have to get sign offs from a parent, doctor and mental health practitioner to even be considered.
Secondly, a study came out from things like census data that basically compared American responses to actuals when it comes to the size of groups.
For example, Americans believe that 21% of people are trans!!! Holy shit 1 out of 5 are trans!!! Nevermind the absurdity of that....but bigger picture obviously means that fear propaganda works.
Suicide rates are down significantly (73%) after starting gender affirming therapy.
https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicid...gender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care
On the flip side, suicide rates nearly double for those that have gone through 'conversion therapy'.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgb-suicide-ct-press-release/
The largest source for suicide is due to outside forces, not from an internal struggle (ie everyone calling them freaks with mental issues).
From the Trevor Project summary: 'LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society'
------
Now it's showing that regret rates for those who end up having surgical procedures are waaay less than the regret rates for those having standard procedures, including life saving procedures (just 1% have regrets out of 8000 examples compared to the average of 14%).
https://www.gendergp.com/new-study-...of-gender-affirming-surgery-are-non-existent/
So you have a very small group of people who are asking for gender affirming care that ultimately is saving lives....but, of course, there are a large group of people with absolutely no skin in the game (because if you did and it was your child that was a suicidal time bomb, I'm pretty sure you'd want the option to potentially save their lives) trying to tell others what is best, even if we know the solution doing nothing but denial raises the odds significantly that they'll die.
To me that's the crux of the argument. Until you can prove that gender affirming care doesn't provide potential life saving treatments, or you have a solution that generates even better results...the argument against is DOA.
Other notes to add.
The overwhelming majority of this gender affirming therapy program is counseling. As mentioned, the very few people that do something permanent before they are an adult have to get sign offs from a parent, doctor and mental health practitioner to even be considered.
Secondly, a study came out from things like census data that basically compared American responses to actuals when it comes to the size of groups.
For example, Americans believe that 21% of people are trans!!! Holy shit 1 out of 5 are trans!!! Nevermind the absurdity of that....but bigger picture obviously means that fear propaganda works.
Gender: “characteristics of men, women, boys and girls based on social norms”
My Catholic upbringing taught me just thinking about sex was a venial sin. Engaging in sex was a mortal sin except for a married husband and wife doing it for the purpose of procreation and not pleasure.
Dying with a mortal sin which had not been absolved through confession to a priest could mean spending all eternity in Hell.
This was all before the wokes made being in the LGBTQ community fashionable and protected. In other words, having no morals.
To Hell with all of them.😇
Dying with a mortal sin which had not been absolved through confession to a priest could mean spending all eternity in Hell.
This was all before the wokes made being in the LGBTQ community fashionable and protected. In other words, having no morals.
To Hell with all of them.😇
There was a time not that long ago when the medical community swore to the efficacy of lobotomies. The medical community is prone to the same idealogical pitfalls as any regular person or group.
The research has led many countries to move away from prescribing these life altering drugs to minors because the benefits do not outweigh the risks. In many cases, they have the benefit of much more information than we do here.
Just use your f*****g brain for once.
History will ridicule you in the same way we ridicule those who once pushed lobotomies as a cure for mental illness.
I dunno, it's hard to argue with suicide rates. If a population has a high threat of suicide, and a particular course of treatment dramatically reduces suicide, then that's a pretty big argument in favor.
I’m not trying to be an a#%, but the study didn’t show suicide rates decreased by 73%. Also, It’s was a small study over a short time period of time. I posted the paragraphs that showed the numbers below. The study is vague, highly subjective, and very questionable. Does it say what the temporal trends and potential cofounders were?
“By the end of the 12 month follow-up study, 69 individuals (66.3%) received PBs, GAHs, or both. 35 youths hadn't received either intervention (33.7%). While there was no association found between these interventions and anxiety (adjusted odds ratio, 1.01; 95% CI, 0.41, 2.51) investigators found promising results.
With an adjustment for temporal trends and potential cofounders, individuals were 60% less likely to experience depression (aOR, 0.40; 95% CI, 0.17-0.95) and 73% less likely to experience suicidality (aOR, 0.27; 95% CI, 0.11-0.65) when compared to youths who did not received gender-affirming interventions.”
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And the research that has led a lot of countries to conclude that the benefits do not outweigh the risks?
It’s common sense, goat. Use your goddamn brain.
When it comes to the non-traditional sexual stuff, the slippery slope is always in effect. Always.
Use your brain analytically, not emotionally.
Across the board GAT has had incredible results. It has saved lives. It is being advocated for and championed by those who have gone through it.
I don't know, but were lobotomy survivors the ones who strongly advocated the procedure like we have here?
I doubt it.
Im betting history will look back at the resistance to this like they do for conversion therapy advocates (where the results led to an increase in suicides vs the average of homosexuals).
Seriously, make sure you’re practicing safe sex. This looks a little different in your 50s than your 20s. You no longer need to worry about wearing a condom anymore. At your age, even if you do contract HIV, a stroke or heart attack will probably take you first.
Now, the important part. The method you need to use in your 50s is called "The Pastor Turtle". At all times sex must be performed missionary style and at a pace no quicker than a turtle. I posted an educational resource below for you.
Was that from my link or the one I linked below? I'm aware of the pro argument but trying to provide links. I haven't seen one dispute them (I mean I'm sure Prager U probably has some manipulated propaganda).
It seems like a pretty simple comparison....take the suicide rates of trans and compare to the rate of those that did some kind of gender affirming therapy.
There are tons of studies pointing to a drastic lowering. It's why I added the result of conversation therapy (where it tries to convert a gay person into a straight person. This was mainly pushed by religious organizations) where the rates double.
I think that's pretty much where the argument against falls apart.
Here's the summary of a different study and the link
'Conclusions and relevance: This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period, which is important given mental health disparities experienced by this population, particularly the high levels of self-harm and suicide.'
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/
That’s just it, I’m the one using my brain analytically in this situation.
I’m the one using common sense.
What do you say to the Europeans who have a lot more experience with this stuff and many of whom are now banning it?
Are they wrong?
Or are they doing the equivalent of “wait a minute, what the f**k are we doing?”
Use your damn brain for once.
They will turn the words on their head and say “that’s not what that really means”
Ordinarily I’d agree but this is just so obvious.
You can’t just stop puberty for kids without serious consequences.
Just because it makes you feel good doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
I already made it clear early in the thread that I was also uncomfortable with this option, but that doesn't make "common sense" a valid argument. Tommy made a good point about suicides, and that deserves more than a dismissive wave.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
Re lobotomies, some surprisingly did. Many couldn't (5% mortality rate for the most famous promoter of it), and others were too apathetic or comatose to say anything. Many, of course, hated it.
Here is a very timely podcast about this very subject that is very relevant to COVID debates and the trans issues today:
Megan McArdle on the Oedipus Trap - Econlib
When physician Walter Freeman died in 1972, he still believed that lobotomies were the best treatment for mental illness. A pioneer in the method, he was a deeply confident and charismatic man who eagerly spread the technique in America, long after the rise of alternative treatments that were...
www.econtalk.org
Megan McArdle on the Oedipus Trap
Mar 20 2023
The study didn't show it decrease in suicides. Also, it only involved 104 people (some of them adults) and they only followed up a year later. It was a sh%t study.
So you are for more death and misery in the face of the data that we have because you're personally uncomfortable even though (I'm guessing) you have absolutely ZERO skin in this game with ZERO experience.
I'm in the same boat. I don't know of any trans individuals.
All I have are numbers and testimonials by the PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IMPACTED BY THIS.
They say it's made a huge difference.
Seems like a pretty easy choice of death or life?
If you can prove it actually leads to more death than I'll be with you but...I don't see that you can.
I wonder if people who see irreversible body alteration for young children also tend to be pro-abortion and those who are anti-abortion tend to oppose it?
Is there a correlation?
The study was from the University of Washington and summed it up with:
With an adjustment for temporal trends and potential cofounders, individuals were 60% less likely to experience depression (aOR, 0.40; 95% CI, 0.17-0.95) and 73% less likely to experience suicidality (aOR, 0.27; 95% CI, 0.11-0.65) when compared to youths who did not received gender-affirming interventions
That being said, there isn't a lot of data to gather.
We're talking about less than 1% of the population.
Yes all of this hub bub that the right is in a panic attack is about something that effects less than 1% of the population.
However some believe that 21% of people are trans. That's what bad propaganda can do.
In every article I can find from the limited studies, GAHT has led to decreases in suicides and depression amount teens.
The Trevor study states the following.
45% of LBGTQ youth seriously consider suicide.
14% of LBGTQ attempt suicide.
Fewer than 1 in 3 said their home was gender affirming.
60% who wanted mental health care (Gender Affirming Heath Therapy) we're not able to get it.
Those that were in gender affirming homes, or were able to get GAHT or were in communities that were welcoming to GAHT all reported less suicidal tendencies, less depression, etc.
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2022/
I now believe the issue isn't them, it's us. But 'us' wants to dictate what is best for 'them'.
Anyway if you can find me a consistent piece of data that says GAHT is increasing the number of dead teenagers than you'll get my attention.
Until then it seems to me that the right is trying to take something away the people are asking for that gets positive results.
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See, now you’ve moved the goalposts, whether intentionally or not. It’s either ignorance or dishonesty.
That study is of youth ages 13-24.
I’m talking about puberty blockers for prepubescent children.
You support and believe parents who are telling you that their 15 month old is telling THEM that they are transgender.
That’s ridiculous. That’s child abuse. And it reflects poorly on you, even though you don’t see it.
Use your brain.
Use your common sense.
Do you support accommodating prepubescent Muslim girls who request FGM? Because that happens. Quite a bit.
And to me this is no different.
It may actually be worse, because we don’t really know the long term health impacts
Leave the damn kids alone.
Of course. The entire subject is political. All the 'trans' movement is is a way to make normal people accept sick activities and normalize them. Same with movements like defunding police to lower crime.
No one truly believes treating an infant as another sex they were born with is right. Those that do it are doing it for attention for being 'brave' and 'enlightened'.
It's all bullshit. 10 years from now it will be something else.
A bit disingenous to claim that only "fear propaganda" works.
There is far too much attention being paid to some of these issues by the MSM and the right wing media. Period. But, here we are.
Look I've made my case in regards to gender affirming therapy using the data that I see is out there, I'll let you have the last word if you want.
I wish the discussion was only about cases like the op (because I believe that is extremely, extremely rare and is being distorted for an emotional response) but the truth is there are currently 8 states that have passed laws banning gender affirming care to those before 'adulthood' while there are 23 more states that have drawn them up.
This doesn't solve anything in regards to the teenage suicide rates of LGBTQ kids.
I think it's reactionary, predictable and counter intuitive to the data that is out there and all it will do is lead to some kids taking their lives that could have been saved.
I'm sure those parents will be appreciative of our thoughts and prayers.
Do muslim women who have done this strongly advocate for it? Do they take their lives if they aren't able to do it? I honestly don't know.
I was circumcised as an infant. I obviously don't remember it and never concerned myself with it and guarantee you I wouldn't want to do it as an adult (plus I need all the girth help I can get so I wouldn't do it).
Did my parents mutilate me? Is that child abuse because it sounds terrible. Have you ever heard a baby cry after being circumcised....pure evil!!!!
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
A few thoughts:
(1) Regarding propaganda from groups over-reporting he number of trans people, trans activists have an incentive, and some actually do try, to inflate those numbers. So it is not all coming from the Right.
(2) You are lumping together mental health counseling with hormone therapy for pre-pubescent children, mastectomies, and cutting off of the penis under the term GAHT, believe. That's quite a range of actions.
No one here has challenged mental health care. Using the term "gender affirming care" or "GAHT" as a euphemism for genital mutilation, though, hides the ball and attempts to ignore or define away the heart of the problem.
(3) The suicide issue is the best argument regarding the physical interventions that people are skeptical of. I don't think the studies look very rigorous or illuminating right now, but if I were a parent hearing this, I'd be scared to death and feel obligated to go along with the "gender affirming care" proposed.
Are you saying these states have banned mental health care--therapy--for children? See, you can't have that definition go both ways. It's more useful to break up the care you are talking about. I'm guessing those states are banning physical interventions--calling it"gender affirming care" is clearly a euphemism used by the activists to deceive people as to what is going on. Just as others do by using the word "ban" and "don't say gay" or on the other side "groomers."
LOL. You're calling out his euphemism for your hyperbolic awfulizing language?
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I think cutting off a healthy genital is mutilation.
Here is the definition of female genital mutilation used by the WHO, UNICEF, UNESCO, and UNFPA, among others:
"The term "female genital mutilation" (also called "female genital cutting" and "female genital mutilation/cutting") refers to all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."
Notice, the definition is not made in terms of why the practice is done (religious vs. accommodating a mental illness). Do you find the term female genital mutilation similarly "awfulizing" or "hyperbolic?" Do you defend that practice?
If you want to discuss the use of the word "mutilation," check out Appendix A on page 22 of the link. The organizations seriously thought about it and describe why they use the word. Some of the reasons they used don't apply here, for me, but others do (to reinforce what is going on is not just "care," it is far more than something like circumcision, and is a very grave, permanent, and life-altering event with long-term health repercussions).
Let me also add, that I'm torn on these physical procedures for trans people precisely because I think this falls within a large gray area of what to do with the mentally ill, the line between respecting them and helping them vs. not allowing them to harm themselves. I don't have the answers on these difficult questions, but I think we should recognize and call out exactly we are talking about here and just how serious these procedures are (especially if we are talking about performing them on young people whose minds haven't even completely formed yet).
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