We have a verdict -- Guilty on ALL counts

[Stuffshot]

I think juries typically do the right thing.

Also, the cases between Biden and Trump are significantly different and they couldn’t prosecute Biden while in office even if they wanted to. I think that DOJ rule is stupid, by the way.

The key difference is that Trump kept those documents for like a year and one-half while (1) lying that he had already returned them, (2) claiming falsely that he had legal authority to have them and (3) falsely claiming he had "declassified" the documents in his own mind but not with documentation (among other false tactics).

I believe Biden and Pence just returned the documents after it was brought to their attention and they located the ones they had.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

If Trumps document case is a slam dunk, why do you think the FBI would stage allergy photographic evidence, then leak or publish the fake evidence? That’s not a good look for the government.

That’s not what they did. You aren’t ignorant and shouldn’t pretend to be in support of a man who doesn’t give a shit about you or any of his mass of supporters.

 

[mcmurtry66]

No that’s not what he literally said. He said that he didn’t think he could get a jury to indict because the president COULD present himself as “an elderly man with a poor memory. “ He also said that it “does not establish Mr. Biden’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. “

He found that Biden willfully retained documents. Willful. He also said that Biden had “significant limitations.” My point remains.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The key difference is that Trump kept those documents for like a year and one-half while (1) lying that he had already returned them, (2) claiming falsely that he had legal authority to have them and (3) falsely claiming he had "declassified" the documents in his own mind but not with documentation (among other false tactics).

I believe Biden and Pence just returned the documents after it was brought to their attention and they located the ones they had.

Willfully retained

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It’s actually not Aloha. It’s the facts of the Trump/ Russia relationship.

it’s a joke that this was allowed to hang over the majority of his term in office. **** these people.

Dishonorable is when government shills contort Harmless events into some sort of malevolence for political and personal gain. You are the one that is dishonorable.

No, it actually is.

I’m also not a government shill. How many times do I need to say I’m not paid by taxpayers to do my job? By the end of August I’ll be retired-retired and not have a job, and I’m looking forward to it.

 

[Stuffshot]

Hillary Clinton doesn’t belong in prison, even though she clearly committed a felony. She got her comeuppance at the ballot box.

That’s how this country used to work until progressives decided to tear our politics to shreds.

Trump also got his "comeuppance" at the ballot box -- in 2020 -- but has spent the next four years falsely claiming that he won without providing any evidence in court. Even Bill Barr agrees that Trump lost.

Trump tore our politics to shreds to stroke his own ego.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

"The Rittenhouse case is probably the clearest example. There’s no doubt that he was innocent but you really want to take your chances trying that case in Manhattan?"

So explain the difference between Rittenhouse murdering 2 people and Abbott in Texas pardoing a white nationalist who murdered a BLM demonstrator ?

Rittenhouse was found not guilty,even though 2 unarmed people died, by a jury in Wisconsin. Daniel Perry was found guilty by a jury in Texas. Yet Abbott decided to usurp the people's will and pardon a man who was unquestionably guilty and provoked the situation...

Unintentionally you illustrate my point. Perry was tried in Austin. He was clearly an innocent man. But he was tried in Austin. So they found him guilty.

Political polarization has thrown a major wrench into our justice system. Certain localities like Manhattan and Austin are not capable of issuing a fair verdict in politically tinged cases. Progressives are whack jobs.

 

[Mark Milton]

The prosecutor literally said there’s enough to indict Biden. This case. Being mushy peas saved him. That doesn’t make him better. He’s been in gov 50 years. He should or did know better

Who knows what the 10 percent to the big guy and the whistleblower shit will yield of trump wins

Dems politicized the judicial system federally - and locally with Soros backed prosecutors. If trump wins the other side of the coin will turn.

Not a net gain for the country.

Isn't the federal appointment process inherently political? I mean Matt Kacsmaryk might be the most politically motivated guy on the federal judiciary who ALWAYS gets assigned these very special cases that relate to abortion and that sort of thing. Or the clear and unequivocal stacking of the supreme court with guys (and a gal), who 100% were going to set aside abortion rights no matter what. That's pretty policitized.

George Soros must be satan. Wonder what that makes the Koch brothers? They do all the nice things on the opposide of the spectrum as George Soros does, including billions in donations to right wing causes/judges/politicians, etc.

At the end of the day, NYC brought charges against Trump, and once again, Trump shit the bed. (1) why didn't he just admit he banged stormy daniels and the jury doesn't have to hear 6 days of sordid details: (2) Why didn't Donald testify? I think the answer is simple--he lies and lies and lies and he would be crucified. A jury isn't supposed to pass judgment on his lack of testifying, but I'm pretty sure the jury probably thought he was a pussy and afraid to testify. Maybe like he had bone spurs and couldn't sit in the box? Worked before for him. At the end of the day the proof of the pudding is the eating--how many juries have to weigh in before people stop blaming the system and realize that Donald is the worst human being to serve in the white house--closely followed by Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson.

He's his own worst enemy 100% of the time.

 

[Stuffshot]

Willfully retained

Yes. I assume you mean Trump willfully retained them, and I agree.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

No, it actually is.

I’m also not a government shill. How many times do I need to say I’m not paid by taxpayers to do my job? By the end of August I’ll be retired-retired and not have a job, and I’m looking forward to it.

Cool beans. Can I have your pension that the taxpayers aren’t footing?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

That’s not what they did. You aren’t ignorant and shouldn’t pretend to be in support of a man who doesn’t give a shit about you or any of his mass of supporters.

The government admitted it.

And I don’t support Trump as you say. But I am concerned about contorting and abusing the legal process. Governor Hochul admitted NY cases are Trump specific and other people shouldn’t worry and give up on NY. Looks like tge DOJ is following a similar path.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

"The Rittenhouse case is probably the clearest example. There’s no doubt that he was innocent but you really want to take your chances trying that case in Manhattan?"

So explain the difference between Rittenhouse murdering 2 people and Abbott in Texas pardoing a white nationalist who murdered a BLM demonstrator ?

Rittenhouse was found not guilty,even though 2 unarmed people died, by a jury in Wisconsin. Daniel Perry was found guilty by a jury in Texas. Yet Abbott decided to usurp the people's will and pardon a man who was unquestionably guilty and provoked the situation...

You’re proving his point. The guy was found not guilty by a jury that sat through the trial and saw all the evidence. You’re just a lefty poster that can’t accept due process and a verdict. That’s no different than the Trumpsters that will not accept verdicts and findings against Trump.

 

[stollcpa]

That's impressive reading, Stoll. The counter says TMP has only posted 23617 messages, maybe you missed one along the way.

Could have.

 

[snarlcakes]

Willfully retained

lol….😂. It’s incredible watching people twist themselves into knots over f#cking Donald Trump, of all people.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Bragg didn’t campaign on that. James did that in Georgia. Bragg was actually reluctant to bring the case but succumbed to pressure from the left.

Of course Bragg did. Trump was a central part of his campaign

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yes. I assume you mean Trump willfully retained them, and I agree.

No stupid. The finding was Biden willfully retained. Yet wasn’t charged

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Cool beans. Can I have your pension that the taxpayers aren’t footing?

That one is from the taxpayers and I appreciate them funding my retirement after 26 years in service. It’s service that you most likely wouldn’t have qualified to do also.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Isn't the federal appointment process inherently political? I mean Matt Kacsmaryk might be the most politically motivated guy on the federal judiciary who ALWAYS gets assigned these very special cases that relate to abortion and that sort of thing. Or the clear and unequivocal stacking of the supreme court with guys (and a gal), who 100% were going to set aside abortion rights no matter what. That's pretty policitized.

George Soros must be satan. Wonder what that makes the Koch brothers? They do all the nice things on the opposide of the spectrum as George Soros does, including billions in donations to right wing causes/judges/politicians, etc.

At the end of the day, NYC brought charges against Trump, and once again, Trump shit the bed. (1) why didn't he just admit he banged stormy daniels and the jury doesn't have to hear 6 days of sordid details: (2) Why didn't Donald testify? I think the answer is simple--he lies and lies and lies and he would be crucified. A jury isn't supposed to pass judgment on his lack of testifying, but I'm pretty sure the jury probably thought he was a pussy and afraid to testify. Maybe like he had bone spurs and couldn't sit in the box? Worked before for him. At the end of the day the proof of the pudding is the eating--how many juries have to weigh in before people stop blaming the system and realize that Donald is the worst human being to serve in the white house--closely followed by Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson.

He's his own worst enemy 100% of the time.

He’s a narcissist with all that attends who can’t get out of his own way. Must be horrible to represent

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

The government admitted it.

And I don’t support Trump as you say. But I am concerned about contorting and abusing the legal process. Governor Hochul admitted NY cases are Trump specific and other people shouldn’t worry and give up on NY. Looks like tge DOJ is following a similar path.

Not so.

 

[BCCHoosier]

I hope he wins, pardons himself, and spends the next 4 years on a revenge tour. I’m a huuuuuuggggeee fan of prosecuting government officials. I’d love to see more of them in jail.

You aren't very bright.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

The Trump world is a horror show of corruption and un-American behavior. The Mueller report reinforced the truth of that.

Russia attacked our systems and attempted to interfere in our elections through a concentrated social media campaign.​

Yet, people like Tucker Carlson encourage a softening toward our adversary and engage in propaganda in support of Russia.​

Much of Russia's social media interference campaign had a (successful) focus on promoting Trump and dividing America.​

Key Trump supporters actively engaged with the fake and bad faith social media interference from Russia via re-tweets and other amplifications.​

We also know that the social media content promulgated via Russia found and finds an easy channel in the right-wing news coverage which ultimately ends up on this board, among many other places.​

Russia also hacked Democratic Party and Clinton operations in an effort to bring Clinton down.

The Mueller investigation was unable to prove that Trump and his campaign co-organized those efforts (collusion), but Trump openly and actively welcomed those Russian efforts.​

Don Jr. and others met with Russians looking for opportunities for Russian intelligence to smear the Clinton campaign. The intention is there, but those efforts largely proved fruitless (so no effective coordination/collusion).​

Mueller waved off any coordination and collusion claim for lack of clear proof. Mueller did so despite extensive interactions between Russian actors and despite that Trump's team actively lied to and obstructed Mueller's investigation. Mueller's report acknowledges that there may indeed have been wrongful coordination and that the missing information could alter the conclusions.​

Meanwhile, in no small part because of possible business advantages for Trump in Russian, Trump's campaign team was actively engaged with Russians and began talks about softening America's hard stance against Russia and watering down sanctions. (Not coincidentally, right-wing support for Russia over Ukraine and U.S. interests grows).​

Mueller laid out in painstaking detail how Trump obstructed justice. That obstruction would amount to a crime. Indeed, he expressly concluded there was substantial evidence of the commission of wrongdoing. However, Mueller stated at the outset that the DOJ cannot indict a sitting president, so he lacked authority to reach the conclusion that Trump committed a crime. All he can do is lay out and assess the evidence. Basically, Mueller concluded that there was indeed a "1", there was another "1", and there was yet another "1", but he could not by law complete the sum and add 1 + 1 + 1. A different tribunal must do that math. Mueller was clear that by that inability he was not concluding that no crime was committed. That arcane and unfortunate failure to meet the system's needs rendered a massive disinformation campaign about just what exactly Mueller concluded.

It’s scary how many people still do not have the slightest understanding of the Mueller report. Because DOnnie said completely exonerated, you guys believe that. There is and was plenty of evidence. I’ll point out just one. So you have an explanation for why Paul Manafort was passing voter rolls and information to the Russians? What possible reason can you dream up for that? Start there….

Thank you for doing the work. It’s hard to believe how many people just took Trump and his minions at his word and believed there was nothing in the Mueller report. Bill Barr did some heavy lifting on that one. And lived to regret it.

Thank you for proving my point.

Mueller found no evidence that Trump or anyone from his campaign colluded with anyone from Russia in order to influence the election. There WAS no evidence. He looked for 22 months and found nothing, zip, zilch, nada.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Of course Bragg did. Trump was a central part of his campaign

I think you’re mixing up the two cases.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Hey! This is your typical critique of me. If you are gonna dilute it with more people, you lose your credibility.

That’s because I think you know better when you post some things. I can’t tell if he does or not.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

lol….😂. It’s incredible watching people twist themselves into knots over f#cking Donald Trump, of all people.

Exactly. It’s nearly impossible to find an honest defense of Trump.

 

[snarlcakes]

You aren't very bright.

You’ve told me this numerous. Do you want me to call you a name back?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Bragg didn’t campaign on that. James did that in Georgia. Bragg was actually reluctant to bring the case but succumbed to pressure from the left.

Yes, he actually did. You’re either uninformed or being dishonest.

Bragg's Trump indictment is a campaign promise kept

Alvin Bragg, the local district attorney in Manhattan who has led the effort to indict former President Donald Trump, is an elected official. He ran for his current office in

www.oleantimesherald.com

 

[snarlcakes]

Exactly. It’s nearly impossible to find an honest defense of Trump.

I agree there are hardcore Trumpers that do it all the time. You’re just the other side of the coin.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

That one is from the taxpayers and I appreciate them funding my retirement after 26 years in service. It’s service that you most likely wouldn’t have qualified to do also.

We’ve been through this Aloha. I was a Westpoint admit. I went to the same high school as congressman Mark Kirk who wrote my letter. I chose IU Evan’s Scholars instead.

You continually berating me over some misplaced idea that I wouldn’t be able to provide military service is unbecoming.

The military is not made up of superhuman iron men. It’s every day Americans with strong moral footing and a sense of duty.

 

[cosmickid]

It’s actually not Aloha. It’s the facts of the Trump/ Russia relationship.

it’s a joke that this was allowed to hang over the majority of his term in office. **** these people.

Dishonorable is when government shills contort Harmless events into some sort of malevolence for political and personal gain. You are the one that is dishonorable.

You're clueless. It's everybody else's fault that Trump hired not only Manafort, but Carter Page as well. Nothing is ever Trump's fault...

Want to know why the FBI was suspicious when after being hired by Trump in 2016 Page announced that he would be travelling to Moscow to attend a "conference"?

Because the "conference" was a pro-Putin front full of oligarchs and Putin cronies who were gathering to formulate strategies to end the US boycott over Crimea. Btw, ending the boycott was a plank of the GOP platform that Trump demanded the RNC develop...

Now why was the FBI particularly sensitive to anything involving Page? Because in 2013 the FBI secretly wiretapped a conversation between a GRU "recruiter" and his supervisor, and the name Carter Page came up in their conversation. Specifically the recruiter mentioned that he felt Page was a possible recruit, that he had interests in Russian Energy and was a "friend". Not of the agent personally, but of Russia. They characterized Page as a "useful idiot" and decided to increase their efforts to recruit him...

The FBI wasn't aware of Page, because unlike what most people might do in his situation he hadn't notified the FBI of contacts with GRU agents. When the FBI confronted him regarding the conversation, Page agreed to testify at the trial of the 2 agents. But that was only after the FBI had come to Page, and the fact that he had not come to them first made them suspicious...

Fast forward and not only does Trump,who has publicly been cozying up to Putin hire Page (and Manfort) for his campaign, but Page announces he's going to Russia.This is when Steele actively entered the picture, as the FBI hired him to monitor Page's trip to the Conference.That was the beginniong of the Steele dossier, not meants to "influence the election" but rather monitor activities of suspicious individuals who just happened to be part of the Trump campaign...

 

[mcmurtry66]

I think you’re mixing up the two cases.

I think you’re mixing up the two cases.

lol please. below is the headline from the NY Times. this is an activist prosecutor. do you know what that means?

How a ‘Nerdy’ Prosecutor Became the First to Try Trump​

Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan D.A., campaigned as the best candidate to go after the former president. Now he finds himself leading Trump’s first prosecution — and perhaps the only one before the November election.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Yes, he actually did. You’re either uninformed or being dishonest.

Bragg's Trump indictment is a campaign promise kept

Alvin Bragg, the local district attorney in Manhattan who has led the effort to indict former President Donald Trump, is an elected official. He ran for his current office in

www.oleantimesherald.com

Hey, I’m not infallible and if I’m wrong I admit it. I was sure I read or heard that he didn’t campaign on that and changed his mind after the election. I was wrong, but unlike many here, I’m OK with admitting I was wrong. This likely disqualifies me from the Trumpster Club and I’m OK with that too.

 

[Thyrsis]

I think you’re mixing up the two cases.

Regardless, it seems to me that talk about campaign promises is overblown in any event. Such a campaign promise doesn't translate specifically and only as a promise to engage in self-gaining partisanship or as something just hyper-partisan for the exclusive sake of politics. That would be like saying Eliott Ness went after Capone for taxes just because he had a grudge. Criminals who hold themselves above the law, injure others without repercussion, abuse the system, rig things in their favor to the detriment of the commoners, and undermine our judicial, political and economic systems through rampant corruption aren't just political opponents. Trump has been obviously a blight on NYC and beyond for a long time. The notion that his corruption is just politics is not a valid construct.

 

[mcmurtry66]

lol….😂. It’s incredible watching people twist themselves into knots over f#cking Donald Trump, of all people.

i mean you can read this board and quickly see why our country is in trouble. it's the confluence of willful ignorance, confirmation bias, and pure stupidity.

trump is bad. he did bad things. that doesn't mean this action wasn't politically motivated by an activist prosecutor. biden was found to have willfully retained classified documents. that doesn't mean a more politically motivated prosecutor wouldn't have brought charges against him.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I agree there are hardcore Trumpers that do it all the time. You’re just the other side of the coin.

My arguments are honest and factual. If I’m wrong I admit it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Regardless, it seems to me that talk about campaign promises is overblown in any event. Such a campaign promise doesn't translate specifically and only as a promise to engage in self-gaining partisanship or as something just hyper-partisan for the exclusive sake of politics. That would be like saying Eliott Ness went after Capone for taxes just because he had a grudge. Criminals who hold themselves above the law, injure others without repercussion, abuse the system, rig things in their favor to the detriment of the commoners, and undermine our judicial, political and economic systems through rampant corruption aren't just political opponents. Trump has been obviously a blight on NYC and beyond for a long time. The notion that his corruption is just politics is not a valid construct.

yeah but that's not the charge of a prosecutor. the prosecutor is supposed to be without bias and apolitical. when you campaign on getting someone and are backed by soros you become an activist prosecutor and not just a prosecutor. that's not good for any system

Standard 3-1.6 Improper Bias Prohibited ​

(a) The prosecutor should not manifest or exercise, by words or conduct, bias or prejudice based upon race, sex, religion, national origin, disability, age, sexual orientation, gender identity, or socioeconomic status. A prosecutor should not use other improper considerations, such as partisan or political or personal considerations, in exercising prosecutorial discretion. A prosecutor should strive to eliminate implicit biases, and act to mitigate any improper bias or prejudice when credibly informed that it exists within the scope of the prosecutor’s authority.

(b) A prosecutor’s office should be proactive in efforts to detect, investigate, and eliminate improper biases, with particular attention to historically persistent biases like race, in all of its work. A prosecutor’s office should regularly assess the potential for biased or unfairly disparate impacts of its policies on communities within the prosecutor’s jurisdiction, and eliminate those impacts that cannot be properly justified.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

We’ve been through this Aloha. I was a Westpoint admit. I went to the same high school as congressman Mark Kirk who wrote my letter. I chose IU Evan’s Scholars instead.

You continually berating me over some misplaced idea that I wouldn’t be able to provide military service is unbecoming.

The military is not made up of superhuman iron men. It’s every day Americans with strong moral footing and a sense of duty.

How would I know we’ve been through this? You change your handles like others change their underwear.

So admitted, but didn’t attend?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Hey, I’m not infallible and if I’m wrong I admit it. I was sure I read or heard that he didn’t campaign on that and changed his mind after the election. I was wrong, but unlike many here, I’m OK with admitting I was wrong. This likely disqualifies me from the Trumpster Club and I’m OK with that too.

Coincidentally, I’m sure, he changed his mind 2 months after a top Biden Administration official quit his job and joined Braggs office.

You shouldn’t defend this stuff, Aloha. You’re smarter than that.

Call this out for what it is. Even a lot of liberals here have done that.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

lol please. below is the headline from the NY Times. this is an activist prosecutor. do you know what that means?

How a ‘Nerdy’ Prosecutor Became the First to Try Trump​

Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan D.A., campaigned as the best candidate to go after the former president. Now he finds himself leading Trump’s first prosecution — and perhaps the only one before the November election.

I was mistaken. Sue me. 😉

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

yeah but that's not the charge of a prosecutor. the prosecutor is supposed to be without bias and apolitical. when you campaign on getting someone and are backed by soros you become an activist prosecutor and not just a prosecutor. that's not good for any system

I’m not a law man like you Mcm. But my understanding is prosecutors are there to serve justice. Whether a conviction happens is immaterial.

Not create Russian nesting doll cases against political opponents. I’m a simple man with simple sensibilities. The fact that Bragg and Jack Smiths cases are not easily understood by the average laymen is troubling.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Willfully retained

That he literally had to steal to have possession of. At no point was he ever legally allowed to possess those docs.
But he's different than Trump, of course, right?