Trump Zelensky today.....
- Thread starter dr.jb
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Russia could always use an expendable that is able to catch a lot of bullets
Funny how both of you went there, reflexively. “Putin lover!”.
Like arguing with a couple of children, so juvenile. But most pro-Ukraine war arguments devolve to that at some point because they don’t have any firm logical footing.
Why is it that you gentlemen feel the need to thump your chest about your military service when I call out the hypocrisy of you two being all talk and no action with respect to supporting Ukraine? Donyou often cite your military service when put in uncomfortable situations? It’s not a get out of jail free card you know.
Seems I’ve hit a nerve, and now your bullshit is on display for all to see.
You gentlemen are not tough. Stop posting like your tough.
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Should the US have quit in WW2 after we were attacked, let bygones be bygones? So why should Ukraine?
What you’re been posting is juvenile and dumb. You have also effectively taken Putin’s side in reality whether you like it or not so why not volunteer to support Russia? That’s only right per your asinine logic. You wouldn’t even serve your own country so there’s that too.
I’ve never taken Putin’s side. That straw man that you build in your head and attribute everyone who has misgivings about this war is the reason you can’t approach it reasonably.
My logic is sound. You have described this conflict as existential. A threat to greater Europe, the existence of Democracy worldwide and potentially even U.S. security.
Endless, ham fisted WW2 analogies make clear that you and others believe this to be a conflict on which the future of the free world hinges.
If you believe that, then yes voicing support on a message board and advocating for more spending is not enough. You need to fight.
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We cut oil production when? It dropped during COVID, oil prices plummeted and a lot of oil companies went bankrupt. Shale oil costs more to get to than Saudi oil.
We struggled to ramp up, with a lot of retirees from oil like everywhere else and investors skittish from the bankruptcies. In 22 we produced as much as 19, and set the record in 23.
Saudi Arabia cut oil production significantly in a deal with Russia.
U.S. oil production 2023 | Statista
Oil production in the United States amounted to around 827.1 million metric tons in 2023, an increase when compared to the previous year and the highest figure recorded within the period of consideration.www.statista.com
Saudi Arabia and Russia are cutting oil supply again in bid to boost prices
Saudi Arabia and Russia are extending cuts to the amount of oil they pump to the world to try to prop up prices.apnews.com
I should have phrased better. Biden's campaign rhetoric and actions to halt drilling on fed lands, reversed drilling in ANWR, and canceling XL during a time of economic recovery from the pandemic facililitated the increase in worldwide oil prices that allowed Russia to have increased profit to fund an invasion. And the US added to those profits by increasing it purchases of Russian oil in 2021.
Nice story, but it it doesn't fit the facts. There was a COVID plunge in oil prices in 2020, but by March 2021 oil prices were at ~$65/barrel, right at the average of the price during the entire Trump administration. As of yesterday, it was at $66/ barrel. Pretty stable, in an historical context
There indeed was a spike in price March-June 2022, AFTER the invasion of Ukraine, not before. It didn't fund an invasion, it was a natural response to a hot war breaking out.
WTI Crude Oil Prices - 10 Year Daily Chart
Interactive chart showing the daily closing price for West Texas Intermediate (NYMEX) Crude Oil over the last 10 years. The prices shown are in U.S. dollars.
www.macrotrends.net
Nice story, but it it doesn't fit the facts. There was a COVID plunge in oil prices in 2020, but by March 2021 oil prices were at ~$65/barrel, right at the average of the price during the entire Trump administration. As of yesterday, it was at $66/ barrel. Pretty stable, in an historical context
There indeed was a spike in price March-June 2022, AFTER the invasion of Ukraine, not before. It didn't fund an invasion, it was a natural response to a hot war breaking out.
WTI Crude Oil Prices - 10 Year Daily Chart
Interactive chart showing the daily closing price for West Texas Intermediate (NYMEX) Crude Oil over the last 10 years. The prices shown are in U.S. dollars.
Are we shocked that their news sources are lying to them?
Nice story, but it it doesn't fit the facts. There was a COVID plunge in oil prices in 2020, but by March 2021 oil prices were at ~$65/barrel, right at the average of the price during the entire Trump administration. As of yesterday, it was at $66/ barrel. Pretty stable, in an historical context
There indeed was a spike in price March-June 2022, AFTER the invasion of Ukraine, not before. It didn't fund an invasion, it was a natural response to a hot war breaking out.
WTI Crude Oil Prices - 10 Year Daily Chart
Interactive chart showing the daily closing price for West Texas Intermediate (NYMEX) Crude Oil over the last 10 years. The prices shown are in U.S. dollars.
Maybe you should look at the monthly prices. Nov 9, 2020 it was 40. By inauguration, it was 52. By Jan 31, 2022 it was 90. After the invasion it was 112.
Or you could learn to read and understand he was using annual data averages instead of actual monthly prices from 2020, 2021, and 2022. But I guess that would cause you to think critically. Something way outside of your abilities.
He has a good point, but in a roundabout way. The war would have been finished had Biden enforced secondary sanctions. In reality the only thing the sanctions did was to allow India and China to buy Russian crude products at a discount and in some cases resell those products for a profit. But if secondary sanctions were properly enforced perhaps oil would have spiked to perhaps $200! Westerners are unwilling to suffer for even 5 minutes.Nice story, but it it doesn't fit the facts. There was a COVID plunge in oil prices in 2020, but by March 2021 oil prices were at ~$65/barrel, right at the average of the price during the entire Trump administration. As of yesterday, it was at $66/ barrel. Pretty stable, in an historical context
There indeed was a spike in price March-June 2022, AFTER the invasion of Ukraine, not before. It didn't fund an invasion, it was a natural response to a hot war breaking out.
WTI Crude Oil Prices - 10 Year Daily Chart
Interactive chart showing the daily closing price for West Texas Intermediate (NYMEX) Crude Oil over the last 10 years. The prices shown are in U.S. dollars.
On another note, should Democrats vote for the CR I will never vote for another democrat in my lifetime and the opposition will effectively cease to exist.
lol. The day you think critically would be the first.
and if you're comparing month to month, it's still valid in showing a trend. You're just upset OS showed up your fellow MAGA sheep.
Not sure where you get that crazy idea... My link shows WEEK BY WEEK pricing of oil
joe biden. pic a topic. murders. border. gas. joe biden spike. @outside shooter you radical lefties are hard to kill off. roaches
Crude Oil vs Gasoline Prices
This interactive chart compares the monthly price performance of West Texas Intermediate (WTI) Crude Oil vs national average gasoline prices back to 1986.
www.macrotrends.net
Why won’t you admit you’re Hickory? Are you ashamed of your past? Do you believe you’re more erudite in your new skin and are pulling the wool over our eyes?
why would i admit to something i'm not. that would be like me asking why you don't admit that you're putin.
For those pushing for peace, I think those answers would be easy. The US didn't quit because they could win. Ukraine should quit (in the minds of those pushing for it) because they cannot. I think that's what this all comes down to. Those calling for Ukraine to quit now and cede the territory Russia has taken believe Ukraine can't win and will lose more land and people if they continue to fight.
When I clicked your link on my phone, it took me to the chart and showed the annual data. The screen is too small to see the details. Now that I am on a PC, I can see the details, and it is exactly as I stated. Nov 4th, it was at 39.15. Jan 22, 52.27, and Jan 31, 2022, it was 88.20 and peaked at 123 after the invasion.
So from Biden's election (and months of campaigning to end oil) to his inauguration, oil spiked 33%. About a year late, it jumped again 69%. One could say those increases were due to the economy coming back online. Maybe part of it. But economic data from Q420 showed the economy was coming back. Only an incompetent fool would put a damper on the recovery by limiting oil supply with regulations. Biden could have waited a year or 2 before adding those regulations to allow us to recover from the pandemic. But bowing to the climate zealots was more important.
I agree. You’re not at Hickory’s level, yet. Hickory was a 11 on the snarlcakes shit lib scale. You’re still in pull ups and a 5.1.
We are going to have to debate "win". Let's start with an issue that will be contentious, Ukrainian children sent to Russia. I suspect Ukraine wants them back. We don't know what Russia's position is. So, would it be a win if the children are repatriated?
Is it a win if Ukraine gets something like an EU presence to stop yet another bite at the apple?
We seem to define not losing as "we'll let you keep a sliver that we will come back for in 4 years." I am not sure Ukraine sees that as not losing here and now.
Even Russia has a breaking point. They have already suffered many more casualties than in Afghanistan, that they lost. So there is some reason to wonder how long they will keep up with these losses. We know the Czar was the first WW1 government to fall to war dissatisfaction. There are precedents.
I suspect if security guarantees and repatriation of children are offered, Ukraine might deal with Russia taking the land. We won't know until Russia offers those concessions. But we don't know Russia WILL offer those concessions.
I don't know what's a win and what isn't a win. It'll probably change from person to person.
But if Ukraine can't win without US boots on the ground, and we all agree that the US shouldn't put boots on the ground, certainly you can see the logic behind a push for a brokered peace? One that doesn't require calling those in favor of it "Putin's boys?"
As for your sliver comment on what Ukraine will be left with, that is hyperbole given the current maps and what I've seen as assumptions about what would be likely to be accepted by the US and Ukraine.
As for whether Russia will capitulate if the war continues, no one really knows.
Putin’s objective was to topple the Ukranian government and install a Russian puppet. He has failed and he has no hope of achieving that. Putin lost no matter what happens from here forward. If certain areas become part of Russia, I’m not so sure we should care. That might be an advantage by removing Russian sympathizers from Ukrainian politics. In any event, I don’t think Ukraine can evict the Russians without a definite shift in our posture.
You’re an unserious, illogical, mostly ignorant, very annoying poster. There are about five people on here whose opinions are typically worthless. You’re one of them.
See, I didn't see you step in when I was called a "war monger" saying that because one wants peace BUT with some type of protection for Ukraine from another bite at the apple. I don't know how many people here want war at any cost, we just want Russia to stay in its own borders. I'm lost where wanting a country to stop launching wars makes one a warmonger.
Everything can be negotiated. But if Russia feels we will give everything it wants, what is its incentive to negotiate rather than dictate? I've said for a long time Ukraine IS going to lose ground. The question is how much. The more she loses, the closer the Russians are to Kyiv in the next bite and the more defensive help Ukraine needs. You can't trade space for time if there is no space.
I find it telling that the people who want peace now actually are refusing to admit Putin cannot be trusted. My view, "Putin will attack again if he gets the opportunity, so Ukraine does need to be careful with what they accept" seems to me to be very moderate. Not a "bleed Russia dry" nor "surrender now". It doesn't seem crazy from the standpoint of Putin's history. This leads to Reagan's old "trust but verify". We need some way of verifying whatever peace comes out really protects Ukraine. It could be EU troops. It could be US troops. It could be troops in baby blue helmets. I'd let the Chinese put troops in (believe me, Russia would not run the risk of an attack that kills Chinese troops). There has to be something. Or is it OK to say, "Sure, Russia can take Ukraine but I just don't give a damn".
And I notice you didn't tackle repatriation of the youth. It is a war crime to do what Russia has done. I am sure charges will be dropped as part of a deal, that's fine. I get why Ukraine would demand their return. I know Ukraine says 20,000, I suspect that is an exaggeration. At the same point, no reason to doubt Human Rights Watch that it has happened.
Fresh Details on Russia’s Forcible Transfer of Ukrainian Children
The Russian authorities’ forced transfer and deportation of Ukrainian children has made headlines, and earlier this month, more details on these transfers came to light through the findings of an investigation by the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE).
If Russia offers some form of protection for the remainder of Ukraine and repatriation, I am all on board a settlement where Russia keeps most to all of what they have. Russia just has to live with a credible foreign defensive force in Ukraine. That's what they get for beginning a war of conquest. I thought opposing wars of conquest was pretty "American."
I don’t understand the motion Zelenskyy should step down. He was elected on with an anticorruption agenda, Russia invade Ukraine, not the other way around, and polls in the free part of Ukraine show his approval in the high 60s. He should stay. Putin should have stepped down more than a decade ago.
I'm trying to stake out positions of arguments. Drill down to what they mean on both sides. I don't think you're a war monger.See, I didn't see you step in when I was called a "war monger" saying that because one wants peace BUT with some type of protection for Ukraine from another bite at the apple. I don't know how many people here want war at any cost, we just want Russia to stay in its own borders. I'm lost where wanting a country to stop launching wars makes one a warmonger.
Everything can be negotiated. But if Russia feels we will give everything it wants, what is its incentive to negotiate rather than dictate? I've said for a long time Ukraine IS going to lose ground. The question is how much. The more she loses, the closer the Russians are to Kyiv in the next bite and the more defensive help Ukraine needs. You can't trade space for time if there is no space.
I find it telling that the people who want peace now actually are refusing to admit Putin cannot be trusted. My view, "Putin will attack again if he gets the opportunity, so Ukraine does need to be careful with what they accept" seems to me to be very moderate. Not a "bleed Russia dry" nor "surrender now". It doesn't seem crazy from the standpoint of Putin's history. This leads to Reagan's old "trust but verify". We need some way of verifying whatever peace comes out really protects Ukraine. It could be EU troops. It could be US troops. It could be troops in baby blue helmets. I'd let the Chinese put troops in (believe me, Russia would not run the risk of an attack that kills Chinese troops). There has to be something. Or is it OK to say, "Sure, Russia can take Ukraine but I just don't give a damn".
And I notice you didn't tackle repatriation of the youth. It is a war crime to do what Russia has done. I am sure charges will be dropped as part of a deal, that's fine. I get why Ukraine would demand their return. I know Ukraine says 20,000, I suspect that is an exaggeration. At the same point, no reason to doubt Human Rights Watch that it has happened.
Fresh Details on Russia’s Forcible Transfer of Ukrainian Children
The Russian authorities’ forced transfer and deportation of Ukrainian children has made headlines, and earlier this month, more details on these transfers came to light through the findings of an investigation by the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE).www.hrw.org
If Russia offers some form of protection for the remainder of Ukraine and repatriation, I am all on board a settlement where Russia keeps most to all of what they have. Russia just has to live with a credible foreign defensive force in Ukraine. That's what they get for beginning a war of conquest. I thought opposing wars of conquest was pretty "American."
The youth should be repatriated and the US, as a mediator, should ensure that upfront, I would hope.
Whatever peace solution comes out of this, I sure don't want US troops on the ground. Re is it "OK," what do you mean? Is it "fair?" If that's the standard, why aren't people calling for US troops to be stationed all over Africa to prevent their wars? Where does it end? I used to think like you, that the US should, as a moral matter help prevent war wherever we could. I don't think that's feasible anymore and also am very reticent about supporting any position that puts US troops in harms way.
If there is a peace accord negotiated, he'll stand for election again soon, won't he?
The funniest part of that picture is how South America isn't even included on the map. Colonialist propaganda!Marv isn’t a warmonger
Everybody has their thing don’t they. There’s this tiny airport in the far west burbs @larsIU literally across from where you were for soccer. By centene hockey too. It’s the closest thing I’ve seen to heaven for some. They are all privately owned little planes with hangars that look like oversized garages. Every guy there looks like that man in the pic. They open the doors to the hangars which are set up like a neighborhood and pimp them out like man caves. Big tvs. Bars. Grills. Their little plane. And they all have golf carts and go from one hangar to the next socializing
I would certainly not prefer Americans on the ground. It is why I try to come up with suggestions (like China) to prevent that. I don't want Americans and Russians next to each other as much as possible. But countries have a right to be free.
On Africa, my biggest disappointments with Clinton was Rwanda (ahead of stupidity with an intern). We should have acted. No, we can't commit troops the world over, I don't want us to. But if genocide is happening and 500,000 civilians dying, we should be willing to test if a couple dozen well-placed cruise missiles will solve the problem. We did nothing. That was unacceptable. I don't know if missile attacks would have scared the leaders away from their path. I suspect it was very possible that if they knew strike one was a warning, and strike two would be a decapitation strike, they would have put some effort into stopping after strike one. But maybe not.
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