It's exactly the point. F-ck Russia. We can ally with whoever we please. Ukraine can ally with whoever they please. As long as no one invades Russia then Russia has zero say.
Trump Zelensky today.....
- Thread starter dr.jb
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While the Logan Act is often cited, but never prosecuted…if anybody was going to blow the dust off it and try, it would be Pam Bondi.
Take that however you want to take it - either as a compliment or an insult. But I doubt anybody here would disagree.
Got it. So we should be okay with Chinese missiles in Cuba and Mexico. Until said time when those missiles are actually launched at us. Then we won’t take it anymore.
Needs to move to a warmer climate frequented by homosexuals where the cocaine is cheap and plentiful.
Isn’t this also why Zelenskyy doesn’t have much of a choice but to strike a deal with us?
Let’s face it, Europe is Tattaglia here.
They should’ve made an example out of Lurch during the first administration. I doubt Bondi does shit.
A few things:
Easiest is to take the 20th century where the Ukraine and independence from after WWI until it didn't in 1919 or so (Prior to that WW1, the Ukraine had significant eras of indepedence that would be too much to discuss at the moment. When the Soviet Union collpased, Ukraine declared its independence. The Ukraine cut a deal with Russia to allow the black feet to lease or occupy the ports on the black sea, and the Ukraine kept the nuclear warheads. The west cut a deal with the Ukraine to give up the nuclear weapons in exchange for a security guaranty from the west, including the United States. That agreement is still in place. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, there was no question that Ukraine was never going to be given NATO membership--and they wouldn't need it with the security agreement in place. They wanted to be part of the European Union for sure. Timothy Snyder outlines Putin's efforts to destablize the Ukraine dating from 1999 when Putin was the direct of the FSS. Those efforts included, but were not limited to, election interference, assassination attempts against Ukrainian presidential candidates.
The point of this, and Snyder would know because he lived there for years, is that Putin's efforts always become a self - fulfiling prophecy--predict an event, and then make it happen. Create an islamic terrorist threat in Chechnya, then do a false flag operation and bomb your own citizens blaming it on the Russians.
It seems like putting the cart before the horse can be dangerous. Here, Putin can justify anything by screaming NATO, NATO, NATO, when it was never going to happen.
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I would love to see a scenario where Europe collectively rises up, decides they are going to take on Russia themselves (through the purchase of American made weapons of course) and allows America to fade into the background of this conflict.
It won’t happen. Genuflecting on Twitter and at the U.N. is the extent of their hard power. That’s why Trump is right to triangulate with Japan, Argentina, India, Russia.
People who still give a shit.
My God man--the original source for the video says it is a parody account. Jesus. Then the guy who retweets (which you left out), says "rumor has it".....
It just never ends with you
If it wasn't scripted and preplanned, then Vance made Trump look incredibly weak. Even if it was, I don't understand why Trump allowed Vance to stage him as so slow and undynamic. Shocking to see Trump so manipulated, but I guess the deterioration of the old guy is catching up with him.
There is an infinite amount of hypotheticals one could spin to justify things either way. Reality right now is Russia is solely to blame.
I’m not trying to spin crazy hypotheticals (especially since a lot of what I examples isn’t hypothetical).
I’m trying to put myself in the opponents shoes. Which I’ve been told is a judicious practice.
They are.
But I also don’t think it has much bearing on the reality of where things stand and what the options are.
I suppose it’s conceivable that Europe would decide to get directly involved with boots on the ground. But it seems very unlikely.
And other than that option…it’s just a matter of the details of who walks away with what and what the arrangement going forward looks like.
At the end of the day, our security guarantees didn’t do them a whole helluva lot of good - not, anyway, with the borders that existed as of the time the deal was struck.
Not so much--that is for sure, and with an army maybe 130k in 2014, the Ukrainians would have a hard time taking Luxemburg...,which significantly undercuts any of the babblespeak about provocation towards Russia.
I’m sorry I don’t really see you responding to my post. I’m uninterested, in the history of Russo-Ukranian aggression and the peace deals that have been violated.
I’m sure it’s long.
This war. Right now. Should end as Trump wants it to.
Possibly. But what leverage does Russia really have other than Nukes? And again they still would be the aggressor. They failed their objective and are down to malnourished north Koreans and horses fighting the war for them. Maybe they get crimea but thats really all Ukraine should concede to them.
Should Ukraine accept the USs mineral deal? Maybe not exactly how it is now but they should in some shape or manner. Not at the expense of their sovereignty or security though.
You addressed defensive alliances, etc. as if they were always antagonistic.
“Antagonistic” is in the eye of the beholder.
I draw little delineation between defensive and regular military alliances. This shit is how the Great War started.
Nukes are some pretty big leverage to be coupled with the words “other than”.
Yeah, Trump’s specific proposal is characteristically one sided - to the point of absurdity. Talk about friendly nations taking advantage of one another.
Zelenskyy needs to hone in on the details - get the mineral split down as far as he can get it and the postbellum US security support as high as he can get it.
And he should also be pleading with Europe for them to up their defense ante in general…such that they actually could be a realistic alternative to the US. Because, where things stand right now, they aren’t. And that’s not the kind of thing they can make happen in the coming months. It will take years for them to have that much strength.
Yes I did. He very clearly thanked Trump and the US in the opening seconds if not minutes. So Vance was just outright lying. But frankly even if he was accurate, demanding a guest give thanks is the height of juvenility. Did you also hear the planted suit question? Normally a reporter does not accuse a visiting president of disrespecting a country. You ask questions, you don't make statements. Or do you think that wasn't intentional?
We may or may have a presence because these rare earths may not be worth mining. This is an economic nothingburger imo. A farce.
The meeting was finished until Vance opened his trap. He had no business do so. Did you also hear the planted suit question where Vance was busy snickering? These guys don't know diplomacy if it hit them with a 10 foot baseball bat.
I'm less interested in Ukraine and more interested in our return. Through our investment Putin has spent considerable resources. What is our payoff from the Russian side? So far I see us offering the Russians a lot for nothing in return. And why do we want expanded economic relations with russia? We have enough energy now.
Great! Russia's to blame. Now what? Keep the Biden strategy of doing nothing but give money and let them keep on killing each other? Never talk to Russia again? Wonderful strategy. Peace is just around the corner.
Well, it is a better deal than what Belgium gave the Congo. "We will take all your land, force you to work for free, but we will give you these nice brass rods". @BradStevens
My comments are only about blaming any other people but Russia and Putin. I have no idea what the solution is but it sure as hell shouldn't involve blaming Ukraine for any of this mess. And it sure as hell shouldn't be some revisionist history that somehow makes Russia out to be the victim in all this.
I am not saying you are either. But for some reason most of MAGA believes some twisted narrative that poor Russia was only defending themselves. That's complete horseshit.
Technically, for the analogy to hold, I think Trump would have to set up a private corporation that he owns and have the mineral rights deal signed with it, while telling the world his nonprofit was going to go in and save the Ukranian people.
Absolutely incredible.
Antoine-Emmanuel Durrieux, for the win: most successful pimp in all of history?
Caroline Lacroix - Wikipedia
I wish I could give this post a hugTechnically, for the analogy to hold, I think Trump would have to set up a private corporation that he owns and have the mineral rights deal signed with it, while telling the world his nonprofit was going to go in and save the Ukranian people.
Absolutely incredible.
Antoine-Emmanuel Durrieux, for the win: most successful pimp in all of history?
Caroline Lacroix - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Also, when Ms. Durrieux’s name is brought up, It reminds me of that Winger song— except she was 1 year younger. StillTechnically, for the analogy to hold, I think Trump would have to set up a private corporation that he owns and have the mineral rights deal signed with it, while telling the world his nonprofit was going to go in and save the Ukranian people.
Absolutely incredible.
Antoine-Emmanuel Durrieux, for the win: most successful pimp in all of history?
Caroline Lacroix - Wikipedia
I have never seen or heard anybody all war an “investment.” Anyone who can find any positive with all the death, suffering, ruined lives, smashed once-thriving cities is sick.
There is no payoff. Our interests are not advanced by revenge on Putin. Economic relations? Russia is a ginormous market. The whole world would be better with a better Russian economy.
After the intro by Trump, Z said "thank you very much, Mr President. Thank you for the invitaion..."
Now, I don't know if one can say that was a real thank you for the war support like JD was likely looking for. It was a courtesy thank you used in normal everyday conversation.
As for the suit question, no I don't think it was planted. Video shows Trump welcoming Z before the meeting and commenting how he liked the outfit.
The meeting went off the rails almost as soon as Z started to talk. He went on to tell Trump that he wanted security guarantees, told Trump what to tell Putin, and tried to tie the hands of Trump by stating no territory will be a part of the deal. He goes on to tell Trump what he needs with air support and licenses, and brings pics of the Russian atrocities. Z is in no position to tell the sitting US President how to negotiate.
This was not the time nor place to have this discussion. He was an invited guest of the WH, with all top players in the room, and he's trying to tell Trump what he wants and needs from us. And what to tell Putin. And does this after showing up late with his meeting with Bessent 2 weeks ago.
Z is delusional if he thinks he can come in and dictate to Trump the terms of any deal.
I don’t get that. We are taking on some obligations and taking a big risk. Ukraine has no wherewithal to do this w/o considerable outside investment. A better economic picture is some immunity against internal political turmoil which has been part of Ukraine for decades.
However, it remains to be seen how Trump intends to structure US participation. The devil is in at least that detail.
It doesn't matter who is to blame at this point. But to work a deal, we need to understand the motivation behind what Putin did. And the US cannot ignore that it promoted the expansion of NATO over the past 30 years. That promotion of expansion is what Putin is saying is the problem. So we can ignore his concerns because he's the aggressor, and the war can just continue on for years to come. Or, listen to him and find a solution. I like the latter option.
Holy Mother of God.
Whose great f'ing idea was that to have a debate in front of the media?
I was disgusted with Vance. MFer was all for Ukrainian aid before he was tapped for VP. He has no place running his mouth in a meeting like that. He's a VP and should not be talking to a head of state in such an insolent manner.
Trump and Zelenskyy, I expect some brass knuckled haggling from them. But in front of the world, JD should know his place.
I think there's a reason Zelenskyy is acting like this - not being subserviant - and I don't know the reason. He had 3 chances to apologize in the Brett Baier interview last night and declined each time.
Does he think Ukraine can win without US aid or giving up his country's wealth? Does he know something we don't? I have to wonder.
Trump wants a return on our investment via these minerals. He said we spent $350B on Ukraine support and he wants $500B in minerals.
What the heck do you think war is? It's a continuation of politics by other means. By definition that requires an investment in blood and treasure.
So a thank you isn't a thank you if it doesn't meet a certain standard? What exactly was Vance looking for? A blowjob?
I'm not talking about Trump's suit jibe. There was a "reporter" who some are saying is MTG's boyfriend who said something along the lines of "what gives you the right to come to the WH and insult the American people by not wearing a suit?" You think that was on the up and up and not staged?
For all of Zelensky's bloviating... And I agree it wasn't the right setting to bloviate the deal was moving forward had Vance not opened his trap.
I don't agree with you on Ukraine, but you're right that Zelenskyy still thinks he's dealing with the brain-dead Biden administration.
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