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Trump Zelensky today.....

Sorry if this has already been posted here - I did scan some of this thread, but didn't see it mentioned.

TASS, the Russian state media was in the Oval Office for yesterday's meeting. And they weren't on the approved list to be there.

Nevermind the fact that the AP and Reuters weren't invited...how does Russian state media gain access to the Oval Office for that meeting? I'm not going to speculate, but given how things went, that's pretty f*#ked up.
 
Sorry if this has already been posted here - I did scan some of this thread, but didn't see it mentioned.

TASS, the Russian state media was in the Oval Office for yesterday's meeting. And they weren't on the approved list to be there.

Nevermind the fact that the AP and Reuters weren't invited...how does Russian state media gain access to the Oval Office for that meeting? I'm not going to speculate, but given how things went, that's pretty f*#ked up.
You never cared what Biden did, why do care now.
 
No. I meant...WTF are you trying to say. Just say it. No cryptic crap. Geez...are incapable of having a discussion?
How did you graduate IU with no willingness to do any research? In any case the U.S. Senate Intelligence committee then Republican-controlled determined that Russia did assist Trump campaign in 2016. If you look at final report in appendix there is a photo of Trump and a young girl. Trump had to cut off Ukraine. Tulsi had to support Assad. Trump has to bash NATO- then see what Dan Coats said. We will get what we get- I pray it’s my social security!!
 
Sounds like it might have been invented.

However. Who cares. Russia doesn't get to say who is allies with whom. And NATO has expanded several times since 1991. No one has invaded Russia since then. Only the opposite. So who gives a shit about what may or may not have been said 30 years

I linked you the actual transcripts of the conversations I'm 1990 and 1991 from the National Archives. You can believe or not. Doesn't matter to me.

But what matters is Russia and Putin believe promises were made. And as you noted, they have watched for 30 years a slow movement of NATO towards them. Ukraine is their red line.
 
How did you graduate IU with no willingness to do any research? In any case the U.S. Senate Intelligence committee then Republican-controlled determined that Russia did assist Trump campaign in 2016. If you look at final report in appendix there is a photo of Trump and a young girl. Trump had to cut off Ukraine. Tulsi had to support Assad. Trump has to bash NATO- then see what Dan Coats said. We will get what we get- I pray it’s my social security!!

Maybe try to stick with subject at hand - yesterday's meeting and not post some cryptic message referring to something almost a decade ago. RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! Is that all you got Jan?

Oh, and nice personal insult you threw in there.
 
I linked you the actual transcripts of the conversations I'm 1990 and 1991 from the National Archives. You can believe or not. Doesn't matter to me.

But what matters is Russia and Putin believe promises were made. And as you noted, they have watched for 30 years a slow movement of NATO towards them. Ukraine is their red line.
They don't get to make any red lines other than their actual border. They have no right to anything else. They invaded a sovereign nation. Failed to overtake it. The only solution is they completely pull out.
 
Sorry if this has already been posted here - I did scan some of this thread, but didn't see it mentioned.

TASS, the Russian state media was in the Oval Office for yesterday's meeting. And they weren't on the approved list to be there.

Nevermind the fact that the AP and Reuters weren't invited...how does Russian state media gain access to the Oval Office for that meeting? I'm not going to speculate, but given how things went, that's pretty f*#ked up.
Russian state media shouldn’t be in the oval if true.

They’re just as despicable as the AP and Reuters.
 
Disgusting and shameful. This was a premeditated mugging of Zelensky by Trump and Vance. I don't know about you, but if WWIII broke out tomorrow I'm not pulling for the yanks with people like this in charge. My grandparents America does not exist right now.
If there is one thing your grandparents, the greatest generation as they’re known, would never, ever do.

That would be to align themselves with a Russian autocrat.

The day America aligns themselves with Russia in pursuit of a larger goal will be a sad day for our country indeed.
 
My point in asking the question is just to demonstrate the folly of suggesting that something like this would diminish our influence.

Our influence is a product of our economic wherewithal and our military wherewithal. Trump’s antics have no bearing on those.
Got it. Perhaps his press conference antics not, but his tariffs, isolationism and similar could have negative consequences.

This guy thinks so.
 
My take is that Vance should have kept his mouth shut (but I understand his being upset) and Z would have been much better served to have just said something to the effect that he appreciated all the US has done to help his country and looked forward to listening to more of President Trumps ideas over lunch...

Evidently (and for good reason) Vance holds a grudge (from Z basically campaigning in PA for slow Joe) and has heard far too much coming from Z in regard to what He wanted..., with little appreciation for what's already been done for him.

Much like what happens here routinely, they started talking past each other with neither grasping what the other was actually saying..., at the point when Z began attempting to give Trump a history lesson on the conflict and warn we would eventually "feel" the force of Russia in the future... (none of which was technically wrong) then Trump became incensed, pointed out that without our $ and gear they'd have been cooked... (which was also accurate) at which point discussions were basically over...

Z is a wartime leader, he's no statesman (personally I admire that about the guy). Trump isn't much of a statesman either, he sees himself as an advocate for the U.S. (and personally that is exactly who I voted for)...

Unfortunately for Z, Trump does have the winning hand in this game... Trump sounds like he wants an immediate Cease Fire and work out from there... Z, understandably, just wants to keep killing Russians to make them pay for what they've done while gaining ground to have more to bargain with at the eventual peace talks...

Z doesn't seem to grasp that the US is the 8,000 pound gorilla 🦍 in this equation and pissing us off could result in his supply line being shut down to a trickle (to a large degree)...

I can see both sides of it... Z doesn't trust Putin for very good reasons and is continuing to push for more security concessions...

We don't seem to appreciate (like) his complete lack of awareness of his circumstances and his seemingly wanting to continue to renegotiate a deal right up to the point of signing it...

76-1, good recap.

When Trump kept telling Zelenski he "Didn't have the cards", I concluded Trump was telling both Zelenski and Putin the U.S. was no longer supporting Ukraine.

By doing this, Trump left Zelenski with a weak hand. Have difficulty thinking this will lead to peace.

Possibly the NATO countries will step up to the plate on behalf of Ukraine thanks to our withdrawal.

Having a hard time seeing peace is just around the corner.
 
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They don't get to make any red lines other than their actual border. They have no right to anything else. They invaded a sovereign nation. Failed to overtake it. The only solution is they completely pull out.

And if they don't pull out? What's your solution? You going to commit US troops?
 
And if they don't pull out? What's your solution? You going to commit US troops?
I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't give Russia a free pass or blame the country that got invaded for this.

I not advocating for anything but putting blame where it obviously belongs. Zelensky, Ukraine, NATO, the US, Europe, the entire world except Russia has zero fault in this war. It's 100% on Russia. To say otherwise is either ignorance or straight up propaganda. Is the situation in that region complex? Yes. But it ain't that complex.
 
Possibly the NATO countries will step up to the plate on behalf of Ukraine thanks to our withdrawal.

Can they? And, if they could, wouldn’t Zelenskyy be going that route?

The UK spends 2.3% of GDP on defense these days. Germany 2.12%. France 2.06%. Collectively, and including Canada, they spend about half as much on defense as we do.

That’s not nothing. But how much more can they realistically spare on Ukraine’s behalf? Especially at a time when their social services are strained.

UK used to spend 5% of GDP on defense during the Thatcher era. But look at what their healthcare expenditures have done since then.

IMG-0631.jpg


They’re tapped.
 
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I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't give Russia a free pass or blame the country that got invaded for this.

I not advocating for anything but putting blame where it obviously belongs. Zelensky, Ukraine, NATO, the US, Europe, the entire world except Russia has zero fault in this war. It's 100% on Russia. To say otherwise is either ignorance or straight up propaganda. Is the situation in that region complex? Yes. But it ain't that complex.
Anyone who thinks world history began in 2014 should never speak publicly.
 
Anyone who thinks world history began in 2014 should never speak publicly.
Has any country invaded Russia/Soviet Union since WW2 other then incursions during the current war? Has any country even threatened to invade them? Has any country done anything other than form DEFENSIVE alliances against Russia?

I'll hang out and listen to your answer Comrade.
 
76-1, good recap.

When Trump kept telling Zelenski he "Didn't have the cards", I concluded Trump was telling both Zelenski and Putin the U.S. was no longer supporting Ukraine.

By doing this, Trump left Zelenski with a weak hand. Have difficulty thinking this will lead to peace.

Possibly the NATO countries will step up to the plate on behalf of Ukraine thanks to our withdrawal.

Having a hard time seeing peace is just around the corner.
I've watched it several times now, and the discussion with Trump and Zelensky was cordial--until JD stepped in. Listened to the BBC this a.m. and their politicians say that this was a purposeful ambush from Vance. I have no idea one way or the next. It didn't look right at all, and it was a bit of place and felt rehearsed. Vance's outbursts certainly seemed to engender an emotional reaction from Trump, but before that, Trump was fine.

Set up/Ambush, we won't really know, but this was from Russian TV on thurdsay (the day before Zelensky arrived):

"One day earlier, Zelensky’s Oval Office ambush was predicted by State Duma member Oleg Morozov on 60 Minutes, a state TV show. Morozov said that the meeting would be a lesson in humiliation, designed to condition Zelensky to capitulate to the United States—and later to Russia. The lawmaker said that the Ukrainian president was flying to America “to sign an act of capitulation,” referring to the rare earth mineral deal Trump was determined to get as a “payback” for previous aid to Ukraine. Describing Trump as Zelensky’s “Daddy,” Morozov predicted, “They will rub his nose into everything, like a messy puppy… Then he will sign whatever he is told to sign.” Host Evgeny Popov chimed in, “But first, Daddy will flog him.”

During the same show, Vitaly Tretyakov, Dean of the Higher School of Television at Moscow’s State University, praised Trump by explaining, “I really like what he is doing right now… I like his revolutionary approach… He did our job for us that we did not dare to do.”

Popov pointed out that Trump is strangling America’s friends and allies. Tretyakov noted, “He is pursuing policies that are beneficial for Russia.” He surmised, “With respect to Ukraine, he is ready to give Russia everything it wants to take.”

I will take day earlier comment with the proverbial grain of salt, Friday's events certainly seemed to be consistent with the ruskie's comments and prediction.

The decision to parade out Zelensky to the press was stupid--nobody should have agreed to that. Goof ups by everyone, and why do it BEFORE you actually cut and sign the formal deal? Odd timing.
 
Has any country invaded Russia/Soviet Union since WW2 other then incursions during the current war? Has any country even threatened to invade them? Has any country done anything other than form DEFENSIVE alliances against Russia?

I'll hang out and listen to your answer Comrade.
#229
 
I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't give Russia a free pass or blame the country that got invaded for this.

I not advocating for anything but putting blame where it obviously belongs. Zelensky, Ukraine, NATO, the US, Europe, the entire world except Russia has zero fault in this war. It's 100% on Russia. To say otherwise is either ignorance or straight up propaganda. Is the situation in that region complex? Yes. But it ain't that complex.

I agree 100% with this. Trump (or anybody else) blaming Ukraine for this is outrageous. And it’s stunning that he seems to always treat our allies harsher than he treats our enemies.

It’s all part of his narrative that the US has been taken advantage of by its allies, I’m sure. I can understand why he’d say that. But there are better ways of going about seeking more balance in our alliances than what he does.

But none of this changes the reality that Ukraine’s best realistic option is striking a deal with us. He should be thinking about trying to get the best terms he can get…and forget about things that aren’t realistically within his reach.
 
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Anyone who thinks world history began in 2014 should never speak publicly.
You ought to bring a canary down in the tunnels you are living in--you are suffering from some sort of deprivation for sure. Nobody can be this stupid ---not even a quisling/petain like you
 
Has any country invaded Russia/Soviet Union since WW2 other then incursions during the current war? Has any country even threatened to invade them? Has any country done anything other than form DEFENSIVE alliances against Russia?

I'll hang out and listen to your answer Comrade.
But that’s not really the point is it?

A “defensive alliance” sounds nice in the head of those who are members of said alliance.

What if Russia tried to put missiles into Cuba to form a defensive alliance? Or Nicaragua? Or Grenada? Or Mexico?

My reading of history says we can be pretty territorial in our own right.
 
Ah yes. You believe Russia has deep historical ties to Ukraine.

Not untrue.

Mexico has deep historical ties to Texas. I suppose we should abate an invasion of Texas in the interest of peace.
How many tens of thousands of illegals from 50 countries, including MS13, Tren de Aragua, Hamas, CCP, etc. have walked into Texas in the last four years? Invasion? You make the call.
Abate? Is that the word you meant to use?
 
I agree 100% with this. Trump (or anybody else) blaming Ukraine for this is outrageous. And it’s stunning that he seems to always treat our allies harsher than he treats our enemies.

It’s all part of his narrative that the US has been taken advantage of by its allies, I’m sure. I can understand why he’d say that. But there are better ways of going about seeking more balance in our alliances than what he does.

But none of this changes the reality that Ukraine’s best realistic option is striking a deal with us. He should be thinking about trying to get the best terms he can get…and forget about things that aren’t realistically within his reach.
There is a valid argument that the US pulls more than it's fair share in the NATO alliance. We also have bases all over the world and no one else does. Most of the world uses our currency as it's based. We are the strongest and wealthiest country in history. So it's all relative. Basically, we decided to be the worlds police force a long time ago. Maybe we shouldn't be anymore? Maybe. But we can't just decide that overnight.

And I agree Ukraine will need to make some concessions. But that "deal" that was presented to Zelensky was a ****ing joke. And they way he was railroaded yesterday was also a ****ing joke. Putin doesn't want Peace. He wants Ukraine. Plan and simple.
 
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