This is a good idea

[BradStevens]

I wanna get back to what it even means to be “educated”. A specific discipline is of course import for some jobs, like engineering. But I think there is more to it that allows a person to excel within a discipline. I’ve worked around lawyers for decades and even though I think a legal education is a great education, not everyone walks away with the same skills and abilities. I think a purpose of education that applies to all disciplines are things like independence, resourcefulness. Problem solving, creativity, confidence, communication, people skills entrepreneurship; stuff like that. Any college education costing thousands of dollars should improve these kinds of abilities.

Generally, it means knowing things about the way the world works--through academic disciplines like history, science, literature, and math. One can be educated, but not be an entrepreneur, or confident, or creative. Those are all great skills to have, but have little to do with being "educated." I think you're mixing up characteristics of what you believe desirable with education, which you want to also believe is desirable.

An example: Vinnie from My Cousin Vinnie is not an "educated" lawyer. Yet, he is a problem solver, creative, irrationally confident, and has good people skills. Contrast him with Charles Allen Wright or Richard Epstein--those guys knew or know volumes of law, how the law works, have literally written the book on some subjects, but it's easy to imagine them without their other obvious skills that you list and they have but need not have.

The John Hausmann character might be one of these. No doubt he's "educated." But he evidences little in the way of independence (he works for a university and is a lifelong prof), resourcefulness or creativity (we all had profs like that--they had a lesson there were going to teach, year-after-year and it worked), problem solving, entrepreneurship, or people skills. He's a dick, but knows a lot and thinks well--i.e. your highly educated person.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Generally, it means knowing things about the way the world works--through academic disciplines like history, science, literature, and math. One can be educated, but not be an entrepreneur, or confident, or creative. Those are all great skills to have, but have little to do with being "educated." I think you're mixing up characteristics of what you believe desirable with education, which you want to also believe is desirable.

An example: Vinnie from My Cousin Vinnie is not an "educated" lawyer. Yet, he is a problem solver, creative, irrationally confident, and has good people skills. Contrast him with Charles Allen Wright or Richard Epstein--those guys knew or know volumes of law, how the law works, have literally written the book on some subjects, but it's easy to imagine them without their other obvious skills that you list and they have but need not have.

The John Hausmann character might be one of these. No doubt he's "educated." But he evidences little in the way of independence (he works for a university and is a lifelong prof), resourcefulness or creativity (we all had profs like that--they had a lesson there were going to teach, year-after-year and it worked), problem solving, entrepreneurship, or people skills. He's a dick, but knows a lot and thinks well--i.e. your highly educated person.

entrepreneurship is truly it's own animal. a mindset. a skillset. so all of my friends and i came into it late from careers with clear paths. one buddy went anderson consulting, peoplesoft, oracle. all same shit. other finance guy mba. others lawyers. i can say that we are all excited, and driven, and motivated, and not good entrepreneurs. my partners have made enough in their careers over 20 years to keep the funds going and we've been able to turn a profit with various businesses but only one i would call a major success. and that was started by an old teammate straight out of college and he did nothing else. the ones started by my buddies who already had careers are viable but i wouldn't call any of them a success. it's a really different path and way of thinking and demands different shit

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I said earlier I believe the value of the degree is far more showing the willingness to spend years working, proving one has the desire to better oneself. Something I failed at at 18. That is the gatekeeper.

But not the only one. There's no reason that these same kinds of skills can't be gained by working in a job. You don't think we get this sort of thing in the construction industry from apprenticeships? We do.

That and looking at transcripts shows one has taken and passed ASL (as a language example). Most employers don't want to devise a test to prove fluency in a language. They don't want to grade a paper to show an employee knows how to write. They don't want to administer a math test to show they know how to do math, or grade code to show they really know how to code. Looking at a transcript showing all that is far easier and less time consuming. That's the role university is providing.

I think this has largely been historically true. But I also think it will be less so as time goes on. A lot of these sorts of things can be done digitally.

So I am not sure why we would discount a degree in religious studies, philosophy, geography. We do, but why?

This is a broader question -- and it gets to how values and prices are arrived at generally. There is no committee somewhere that determines these things.

It's not dissimilar to the question of why there's a disparity in the pay between NBA players and WNBA players. Why does the former make so more than the latter? After all, they both play the same game, they both work very hard for years at it.

Well, obviously, many more people will pay much more money to watch the former than the latter. It's not some sexist conspiracy. And I have to imagine that most reasonably intelligent people know this.

Most people I know with a business degree state right up front they didn't learn anything that really made them superior. So, why do we value them more?

Employers determine pay using several criteria. First and foremost is how much value somebody brings to the enterprise. SAG is an actors union and they have union scale wages for actors. Tom Cruise is a member of SAG -- but he makes quite a bit more to act than virtually anybody else in the union. And this is why: he puts asses in seats more than the average actor. Same reason highly productive sales people make more than those with lower production.

Second is what it would cost to replace somebody. We employ some engineers and they aren't cheap. But it's not like the job market is filled with cheap engineers.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say business degrees are necessarily valued more. But I would say that they probably come with more practical skills. And those practical skills carry a value. That said, there's no reason that somebody who doesn't have a business degree (or any degree) can't obtain those skills.

I wouldn't advise kids to get a business degree these days. They can get those skills (accounting/finance, sales/marketing, management, strategy, etc.) much better by working in a business.

Now clearly if I were hiring someone to design bridges, I would want someone with an engineering degree.

This is why I think we'll see college contracting at some level to things where getting a degree is the only way to fulfill a career goal. I'm not saying the rest will just go away. But it's just not as necessary as it used to be, the cost/benefit ratio is all out of whack, and what can't go on forever won't go on forever.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

While that seems to be the common talking point.... The college debt issue isn't really the result of a degree not paying off.... But rather the fact that something like 40% of people with college debt never graduated.

The wage gap between a high school degree and a college degree is higher today than it was 30 years ago.

And this is another good reason for us to attack this problem from the financing end.

How much vetting are we doing up front before they are approved? What kind of ongoing commitments do they have to continue getting funded from one semester to the next?

Again, we need to start approaching student lending the same way we would mortgage lending. And we need to get away from this notion that it should just be a free-for-all -- based on the quaint notion that college education should be affordable and available to all. Sounds good, works like shit. And that's why it looks a lot like healthcare -- as Daniels pointed out.

 

[hookyIU1990]

or grade code to show they really know how to code. Looking at a transcript showing all that is far easier and less time consuming. That's the role university is providing.

The best move we ever made in our hiring process was put developers through a practical test as one of the initial steps in the hiring process. People could talk their way through the interview process, but couldn't solve problems and they drug down the efficiency of the project team and in some cases created customer sat issues. Both of those situations were costly. You can't pass the relevant test for the position you want, you can't move on.

 

[mcmurtry66]

@Baller23Boogie @twenty02 raises a great point. What if she goes two and a half years and drops. 150k in the hole for nothin

 

[jet812]

For appointed jobs, we automatically eliminate the other main party, Libertarians, and independents. No matter who wins, we eliminate over 1/2 of the country simply based on a criteria that they don't donate big money to the winning party.

Don’t you think there is a difference between eliminating people due to traits that may affect their performance (beliefs & like mindedness that may impact implementation or application of policy within an administration) vs immutable characteristics?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Generally, it means knowing things about the way the world works--through academic disciplines like history, science, literature, and math. One can be educated, but not be an entrepreneur, or confident, or creative. Those are all great skills to have, but have little to do with being "educated." I think you're mixing up characteristics of what you believe desirable with education, which you want to also believe is desirable.

An example: Vinnie from My Cousin Vinnie is not an "educated" lawyer. Yet, he is a problem solver, creative, irrationally confident, and has good people skills. Contrast him with Charles Allen Wright or Richard Epstein--those guys knew or know volumes of law, how the law works, have literally written the book on some subjects, but it's easy to imagine them without their other obvious skills that you list and they have but need not have.

The John Hausmann character might be one of these. No doubt he's "educated." But he evidences little in the way of independence (he works for a university and is a lifelong prof), resourcefulness or creativity (we all had profs like that--they had a lesson there were going to teach, year-after-year and it worked), problem solving, entrepreneurship, or people skills. He's a dick, but knows a lot and thinks well--i.e. your highly educated person.

I’m pretty much gonna stand by what I said. Education to be worthwhile cannot simply be knowing how the world works, but being a meaningful participant in working it. The list I posted is by no means exhaustive, and many factors enter the mix. An individual who has a degree but cannot use it for any benefit is not fully educated in my view.

 

[BradStevens]

I’m pretty much gonna stand by what I said. Education to be worthwhile cannot simply be knowing how the world works, but being a meaningful participant in working it. The list I posted is by no means exhaustive, and many factors enter the mix. An individual who has a degree but cannot use it for any benefit is not fully educated in my view

I think you’re begging the question.

 

[DANC]

i already know what i'm doing marv. my daughter goes to mizzou she can study anything she wants. god forbid she goes to MO State same holds true. she goes out of state or private i get a say in what she studies. i'm not paying a fortune for soft sciences. sucks but reality with these costs. fortunately i'll only have one going through college at a time

Wait until you pay for her wedding.....

 

[Baller23Boogie]

@Baller23Boogie @twenty02 raises a great point. What if she goes two and a half years and drops. 150k in the hole for nothin

Well, she's gonna have a lot of debt then.

I've always taught my kids that if they really want to do something that they feel strongly about, consider all avenues, pros and cons, but don't be afraid to jump feet first.

If she drops out, it doesn't matter what she was studying... she'll still be stuck with all that debt so go do something she'll enjoy doing.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well, she's gonna have a lot of debt then.

I've always taught my kids that if they really want to do something that they feel strongly about, consider all avenues, pros and cons, but don't be afraid to jump feet first.

If she drops out, it doesn't matter what she was studying... she'll still be stuck with all that debt so go do something she'll enjoy doing.

I get it brother. I just think you have to put your finger on the scale. Brains are still developing. They don’t know

 

[Baller23Boogie]

I get it brother. I just think you have to put your finger on the scale. Brains are still developing. They don’t know

I understand what you're saying, and believe me, we've tried to (subtly) suggest alternative routes, but we have to let her either prosper or fail on her own. We can't hold her hand all her life... she's 18, she can make her own decisions about what she wants to do when she's done with school.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Not just scientists, our founders learned philosophy, they studied science, they learned foreign languages, heck, they learned ballroom dance.

Generally speaking today we want trade schools. I think we miss a well rounded education.

Our founders were the elites. The vast majority of Americans didn't learn any of that. They learned how to farm.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Our founders were the elites. The vast majority of Americans didn't learn any of that. They learned how to farm.

John Adams, "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

 

[snarlcakes]

@Baller23Boogie @twenty02 raises a great point. What if she goes two and a half years and drops. 150k in the hole for nothin

Yep, which is why she should buy two Bitcoins with that money. And skip college, waitress at a cute little diner, live at home, go on mission trips and be a millionaire by the time she’s 30 (probably sooner).

 

[larsIU]

How much vetting are we doing up front before they are approved? What kind of ongoing commitments do they have to continue getting funded from one semester to the next?

There's more vetting in the subprime auto industry to buy a $20k car. And the cars get paid off far more than people graduate college.

Excellent point to bring up crazed. We should tell kids no when they apply for student loans if it doesn't look like there is any chance they will graduate (or the continued funding after first year).

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

There's more vetting in the subprime auto industry to buy a $20k car. And the cars get paid off far more than people graduate college.

Excellent point to bring up crazed. We should tell kids no when they apply for student loans if it doesn't look like there is any chance they will graduate (or the continued funding after first year).

You're probably right about the BHPH dealerships using more scrutiny than student lending.

And that's because student lending is something that is driven by the mindset not only that everybody should be able to go to college, but that everybody should....and that money should not be an obstacle.

Look, I know that idea sounds good. But it's actually a terrible idea that we wouldn't apply in most any other context. And the evidence of it is the sea of red ink that we're not only having to deal with, but rapidly adding to as we ignore the problem.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think you’re begging the question.

Education doesn’t just mean accumulating knowledge and skills, it also means the ability to put those things to beneficial use.

 

[larsIU]

You're probably right about the BHPH dealerships using more scrutiny than student lending.

And that's because student lending is something that is driven by the mindset not only that everybody should be able to go to college, but that everybody should....and that money should not be an obstacle.

Look, I know that idea sounds good. But it's actually a terrible idea that we wouldn't apply in most any other context. And the evidence of it is the sea of red ink that we're not only having to deal with, but rapidly adding to as we ignore the problem.

As far more people than I have said......the easiest fix is to make them dischargeable in bankruptcy (without the special steps not needed in more normal run of the mill b/ks). That wlll get the lender's attention. At least, it should.

 

[BradStevens]

Education doesn’t just mean accumulating knowledge and skills, it also means the ability to put those things to beneficial use.

I don’t think it does. Not in the way most people use the word.

The term “book smart” pretty much means an educated person who cannot put his education to a beneficial use.

 

[BradStevens]

You're probably right about the BHPH dealerships using more scrutiny than student lending.

And that's because student lending is something that is driven by the mindset not only that everybody should be able to go to college, but that everybody should....and that money should not be an obstacle.

Look, I know that idea sounds good. But it's actually a terrible idea that we wouldn't apply in most any other context. And the evidence of it is the sea of red ink that we're not only having to deal with, but rapidly adding to as we ignore the problem.

Now I think you’re hitting the real problem here.

 

[hookyIU1990]

There's more vetting in the subprime auto industry to buy a $20k car. And the cars get paid off far more than people graduate college.

Excellent point to bring up crazed. We should tell kids no when they apply for student loans if it doesn't look like there is any chance they will graduate (or the continued funding after first year).

Way too much "you can be anything you want to be if you just believe and keep pursuing your dreams" out there. No you can't, Bridgette.

The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny.

 

[BradStevens]

Way too much "you can be anything you want to be if you just believe and keep pursuing your dreams" out there. No you can't, Bridgette.

The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny.

This.

Yet in public education, you can’t bring up innate IQ differentials in children. They believe if they just teach everyone the right way and we eliminate the educational oppression, pretty much everyone (minus a physical brain issue) can succeed at college and should go there.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

As far more people than I have said......the easiest fix is to make them dischargeable in bankruptcy (without the special steps not needed in more normal run of the mill b/ks). That wlll get the lender's attention. At least, it should.

The lender is you, me, and everybody else who pays federal taxes, amigo. And most of us clearly don’t care how much debt is piled on our shoulders.

I think BK reform is probably going to have to be a part of what we do here. But it needs to go farther than that.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Now I think you’re hitting the real problem here.

I’d argue that this is part and parcel with everything else I’ve said on the matter.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The lender is you, me, and everybody else who pays federal taxes, amigo. And most of us clearly don’t care how much debt is piled on our shoulders.

I think BK reform is probably going to have to be a part of what we do here. But it needs to go farther than that.

Yup. You could gobble up some loopholes as it stands. Grad med school. Have low income rush for a 7 before your big income hits and dump that debt. Rules as they stand wouldn’t work

 

[BradStevens]

I’d argue that this is part and parcel with everything else I’ve said on the matter.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

It all revolves around a rational relationship between cost, expected (monetary) value, and appropriate controls in the lending process…

…which is the way we almost always deal with financing things.

So it’s not only about the “who” it’s also about the “what.” In mortgage lending, lenders obviously care about a prospective borrower’s wherewithal to afford the loan. But they also care that the property they’re financing is worth the price being paid. And both things are important.

We’ve never looked at degrees in terms of the relationship between their cost and their anticipated value. But we’d better start if we want to get this problem under control.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I understand what you're saying, and believe me, we've tried to (subtly) suggest alternative routes, but we have to let her either prosper or fail on her own. We can't hold her hand all her life... she's 18, she can make her own decisions about what she wants to do when she's done with school.

My daughter is so amped for tomorrow night. Her buddy is having a sleepover with a bunch of kids and they’re all going to terrorize the hood and skip school Friday. Guess who has to be home at 9:30 tomorrow AND go to school Friday bc her grades weren’t all that bwahahahahahaha SHE’S COOKED!!!!!!!

As for me? @JamieDimonsBalls we might just have to swing by a certain bar for SKANKSWEEN!!!!!!!! LFG!!!!!!!

See if there’s any wounded antelopes worth draggin home

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

My daughter is so amped for tomorrow night. Her buddy is having a sleepover with a bunch of kids and they’re all going to terrorize the hood and skip school Friday. Guess who has to be home at 9:30 tomorrow AND go to school Friday bc her grades weren’t all that bwahahahahahaha SHE’S COOKED!!!!!!!

As for me? @JamieDimonsBalls we might just have to swing by a certain bar for SKANKSWEEN!!!!!!!! LFG!!!!!!!

See if there’s any wounded antelopes worth draggin home

I was just out in Palm Beach and they were roaming around like apex predators. If I was into that, it would be fishing with dynamite.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I was just out in Palm Beach and they were roaming around like apex predators. If I was into that, it would be fishing with dynamite.

Nice!!!!! Literally palm beach?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Nice!!!!! Literally palm beach?

The Breakers.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The Breakers.

Bitch mfckr

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Bitch mfckr

It’s so overrated imo. Dont get me wrong, im not passing up a chance to stay there, but there are many better hotels.

Coming up to the bridge with the McLaren dealer is just amusing tho

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s so overrated imo. Dont get me wrong, im not passing up a chance to stay there, but there are many better hotels.

Coming up to the bridge with the McLaren dealer is just amusing tho

For sure. The grand room for events is fantastic. And there’s so many spots to hide out for drinks. It’s a fun quiet spot after dinner etc. But yes

 

[twenty02]

For sure. The grand room for events is fantastic. And there’s so many spots to hide out for drinks. It’s a fun quiet spot after dinner etc. But yes

And stone crab season has started!

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s so overrated imo. Dont get me wrong, im not passing up a chance to stay there, but there are many better hotels.

Coming up to the bridge with the McLaren dealer is just amusing tho

My ex lives in manalapan. Eau palm beach is there which is another alternative to the breakers. Real cool spa. It was where la Coquille club was razed. And that was the spot for the Rockefeller vanderbilts and all the Uber wealthy. So when they built eau palm a condition was la Coquille had to be included as a membership club therein.

 

[mcmurtry66]

And stone crab season has started!

Bitch I’m making Fing chili with a 3 yr old. My no good pecker sealed my fate

 

[twenty02]

My ex lives in manalapan. Eau palm beach is there which is another alternative to the breakers. Real cool spa. It was where la Coquille club was razed. And that was the spot for the Rockefeller vanderbilts and all the Uber wealthy. So when they built eau palm a condition was la Coquille had to be included as a membership club therein.

Your ex?