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These are not political prisoners

If a researcher or scientist is still using animals in their lab, they're very likely not working with the best, current information.
First of all, the study he cited was not funded by the NIH, at all.

Second, drug discovery research absolutely cannot be done without some degree of animal testing. The FDA even requires it. Sure, cell based models ("in vitro" experiments) and computer modeling are done up front, extensively. This eliminates many toxic compounds, which is a great thing. But such studies are inadequate to predict fully how a mammal will respond to a medicine.

By and large the approved and approvable experiments are dose-ranging and safety experiments, such as giving mice varying amounts of a proposed drug and determining its half-life, what tissues it goes to, its route of elimination (e.g., urine, feces, is the molecule intact or metabolized, and metabolized to what). Every such experiment is overseen by on-site veterinarians, is limited in size to the minimum number of animals needed to get a statistically meaningful result, and there is a book-sized list of animal care protocols to follow, from feeding schedule, to cage size, to diet, to provided exercise time, socialization, etc.

When you have data on two non-human species (say, mice and guinea pigs) you are able to statistically model with some confidence what human doses to use in a phase I clinical trial and what issues to look out for (eg., elevated liver enzymes, renal problems, GI issues, etc.).

The FDA simply will not allow any human clinical trial until such animal modeling is done. If you want drugs, for now anyway, animal testing must be done.

This is speaking from 35 years as a drug discovery scientist, half in pharma.
 
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Read the letter, they explain why they signed the letter (believe them or not):


I don't think they should have signed that letter. I didn't cheer them, but I'm sure it was easy to believe Rudy was involved in some dirty tricks.
But see...that's the problem. Your last sentence there "It's easy to believe Rudy was up to no good."

These were intelligence professionals. They knew very well what that letter would mean -- to the media, to official Washington, and perhaps even to the American people themselves. The only reason they signed it is *because* they were intelligence professionals. It was to discredit the laptop, right? Who else is in a position to do that, other than members of our intelligence community?

This is why I'm saying that people have a hard time reckoning what happened because of the personalities involved. But that's a very irresponsible and short-sighted way to look at this. "Oh, well, it was easy to believe because Rudy Giuliani was involved. And besides, they were working against Trump."

No. That is not how professional people are supposed to operate. They are supposed to make assessments based on facts. And they obviously didn't have the facts to do it, because what they said was flat wrong. Even CBS was able to hire a couple forensic guys to go through it and confirm its authenticity. So a news network is capable of figuring out that it's authentic....but our top intelligence pros aren't?

And you can say "Well, they didn't have access to it." Which is certainly true. But the FBI did. They'd had it for nearly a year. And the DNI made it known publicly that they were off base, too.

What they did was simply indefensible. And I honestly think it would be easier for everybody to see if it involved somebody other than Donald Trump.
 
obviously didn't have the facts to do it, because what they said was flat wrong
IIRC there were 2-3 signers that the "organizer" had to come back 2-3 times to negotiate with them for their signature. I don't recall what they got in the negotiations, but it's obvious that they signed it, so..
 
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But see...that's the problem. Your last sentence there "It's easy to believe Rudy was up to no good."

These were intelligence professionals. They knew very well what that letter would mean -- to the media, to official Washington, and perhaps even to the American people themselves. The only reason they signed it is *because* they were intelligence professionals. It was to discredit the laptop, right? Who else is in a position to do that, other than members of our intelligence community?

This is why I'm saying that people have a hard time reckoning what happened because of the personalities involved. But that's a very irresponsible and short-sighted way to look at this. "Oh, well, it was easy to believe because Rudy Giuliani was involved. And besides, they were working against Trump."

No. That is not how professional people are supposed to operate. They are supposed to make assessments based on facts. And they obviously didn't have the facts to do it, because what they said was flat wrong. Even CBS was able to hire a couple forensic guys to go through it and confirm its authenticity. So a news network is capable of figuring out that it's authentic....but our top intelligence pros aren't?

And you can say "Well, they didn't have access to it." Which is certainly true. But the FBI did. They'd had it for nearly a year. And the DNI made it known publicly that they were off base, too.

What they did was simply indefensible. And I honestly think it would be easier for everybody to see if it involved somebody other than Donald Trump.
I said they shouldn't have done it. They shouldn't because if they were wrong, they were possibly influencing the election, not the Russians in this case. I think we agree.
 
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I said they shouldn't have done it. They shouldn't because if they were wrong, they were possibly influencing the election, not the Russians in this case. I think we agree.

OK, but this is why I think they need to have some kind of accountability. I don't think they broke any laws -- even disinformation is protected by the 1st Amendment. Their lawyer is right about that.

But I think it's entirely appropriate to suspend their security clearances.
 
Shine a light on it. I’m all for it. My guess is nearly all of them believed everything in the letter because it actually had the earmarks of Russian disinformation. The guy who organized it? Probably not. I said that it should have been covered by all the press. It was covered by Fox and was all over social media. It was known of. I sincerely fail to see how it would have changed to 2020 election. Years later it still only proves Hunter was an addict and sleazebag.
Enough people said they would have voted differently without the letter to sway them swinging the vote to Trump; that is how it changed the 2020 election.
 
I doubt they're non-existent for most of those people.

Not according to the attorney for several of them....


The order, which includes many who likely no longer hold security clearances due to the length of their time out of government, could be seen as an opening salvo against members of the intelligence community, which Trump and many of his supporters accuse of plotting to discredit him.

“The signatories willfully weaponized the gravitas of the Intelligence Community to manipulate the political process and undermine our democratic institutions,” according to the order.

Trump in 2018 revoked the clearance of ex-CIA Director John Brennan, an outspoken critic.

The new order is significantly broader. Topping the list of those stripped of access is Leon Panetta, a lifelong government official who served in Congress, as well as a variety of positions in both Democratic and Republican administrations including leading the CIA during the Osama bin Laden raid. He also served as defense secretary and White House chief of staff.

Others to make the list include James Clapper, who was Director of National Intelligence under former President Barack Obama; and Michael Hayden, a retired Air Force 4-star general, former director of the CIA and director of the National Security Agency.

While many of the 50 people named likely do not have active clearances, the order could mean that companies would no longer rely on them for strategic advice.

Attorney Mark Zaid, who represents eight of the people named, posted on X Monday evening that “few” of the former government officials named in the order “even maintain current eligibility or access to classified info,”

 
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Yep. Didn't biden pardon a guy who killed two fbi agents yesterday. He has nothing to say about that though. Not a peep.
Biden sucks for commuting that guy's sentence, @bailey777 . Some of his other pardons and commutations were also unforgivable.

I said on this board (I'll produce the post if you doubt me) a year before the election that Jill needed to have a "come to Jesus" talk with Biden and convince him to step aside. That didn't happen, at least not then. Biden was a selfish bastard for hanging on as long as he did. It caused damage not only to his party but to the country.

But here's the good news, @bailey777 . Biden's gone. He's entirely irrelevant now. But your boy is just beginning his second act. Let's hear you, for once, call him out for something. Not in your DNA though, is it? Or your anatomy. I still remember your disappearing act here (for several months) after the 2022 mid-terms went completely contrary to your many predictions. No balls. Maybe, finally, you'll grow a pair in 2025. Happy New Year.
 
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I think he said something along the lines of him being an elderly man and sympathetic to jurors, but yep, I don't think Biden would be competent to stand trial pretty darn soon. I don't wish him dead, but I remember my father-in-law in the early grip of dementia, and he was similar to Biden at this point. I think he died less than two years later, and he couldn't talk or anything the last year, give or take a few months. I've read rapid decline at the end is typical.
But he was perfectly capable of being the President until yesterday?
 
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Biden sucks for commuting that guy's sentence, @bailey777 . Some of his other pardons and commutations were also unforgivable.

I said on this board (I'll produce the post if you doubt me) a year before the election that Jill needed to have a "come to Jesus" talk with Biden and convince him to step aside. That didn't happen, at least not then. Biden was a selfish bastard for hanging on as long as he did. It caused damage not only to his party but to the country.

But here's the good news, @bailey777 . Biden's gone. He's entirely irrelevant now. But your boy is just beginning his second act. Let's hear you, for once, call him out for something. Not in your DNA though, is it? Or your anatomy. I still remember your disappearing act here (for several months) after the 2022 mid-terms went completely contrary to your many predictions. No balls. Maybe, finally, you'll grow a pair in 2025. Happy New Year.
If he doesn’t declassify and release everything he promised to we will definitely be calling him out.
 
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That was your opinion.
My opinion was he was probably OK to finish that term. His team and family thought he was. My concern always was a second term which I thought there was no way he could finish. It's why I was saying long before the primaries that he should step aside and let the younger people have at it. I think both of the geezers should have stepped aside.
 
My opinion was he was probably OK to finish that term. His team and family thought he was. My concern always was a second term which I thought there was no way he could finish. It's why I was saying long before the primaries that he should step aside and let the younger people have at it. I think both of the geezers should have stepped aside.
Biden’s decline is light years past trump. There’s not a chance in hell Biden could have done what trump did yesterday. Your bias is showing again
 
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Biden’s decline is light years past trump. There’s not a chance in hell Biden could have done what trump did yesterday. Your bias is showing again
I agree. Biden's decline is way past Trump's. I've said this probably half a dozen times.
 
I agree. Biden's decline is way past Trump's. I've said this probably half a dozen times.
Yet when Biden was still in the race you couldn't help to bring up Trump's alleged declines when this board was talking about the latest Biden gaffe to make it seem like the age factor was a wash. Now that he's out it's way past Trump's? That NYT times article was riveting...for those that had their heads in the sand regarding the fragility of Biden. For those that were actually paying attention, that article was simply a rehash of everything we already saw and understood sprinkled with quotes from aides about hiding his failings.

Let's not rewrite our opinions now that the dog isn't in the fight anymore.
 
Yet when Biden was still in the race you couldn't help to bring up Trump's alleged declines when this board was talking about the latest Biden gaffe to make it seem like the age factor was a wash. Now that he's out it's way past Trump's? That NYT times article was riveting...for those that had their heads in the sand regarding the fragility of Biden. For those that were actually paying attention, that article was simply a rehash of everything we already saw and understood sprinkled with quotes from aides about hiding his failings.

Let's not rewrite our opinions now that the dog isn't in the fight anymore.
I’ve been posting he’s mushy peas for years. I suspect he was out of it most of his term and that’s why we got squad politics. I’d bet you if Biden ran and won in 2016 his presidency would have been nothing like this disaster. I bet it would have been fine. Not pleasing to pubs but fine. Moderate. And I bet he would have won
 
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Yet when Biden was still in the race you couldn't help to bring up Trump's alleged declines when this board was talking about the latest Biden gaffe to make it seem like the age factor was a wash. Now that he's out it's way past Trump's? That NYT times article was riveting...for those that had their heads in the sand regarding the fragility of Biden. For those that were actually paying attention, that article was simply a rehash of everything we already saw and understood sprinkled with quotes from aides about hiding his failings.

Let's not rewrite our opinions now that the dog isn't in the fight anymore.
The article was just a good breakdown of the inner workings of the process. Yes, we all saw his decline and formed opinions about it. Mine has been very clear.

Even when Biden was in the race and was walking through the primaries, I said he should step down. I said the Democrats should fight it out at the DNC. He stepped down and anointed Harris instead. I never said the age factor was a wash. I've always said that Biden's decline was much further along than Trump's. Always. If you want to criticize me, be truthful.

I had no dog in the fight. I clearly stated many times that I strongly felt Trump is unfit for the office of President. I felt no joy that Harris was the other candidate. I still think Trump is unfit, but my opinion on that is totally irrelevant. Trump is our President now. I will support our President to the extent I feel necessary as I always do - joyfully or not. President Trump is OUR President. Celebrate it and move on.
 
I don't have evidence that any of the pardoned hurt police. Case by case basis would have to look at several factors. Did the police start the violence etc.
You're saying that no police officers were beaten over the head with flagpoles, nunchucks, and billy clubs? That the videos showing such beatings were faked? That the medical records showing broken bones and severe concussions were all just made up?

It's quite a fantasy world that you live in, pastor.
 
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“Obstruction of an official proceeding”

Is such a dystopian statute it boggles the mind. In the civilian world it might be called trespass or intimidation. God forbid you do it to a Federal government event and the entire leviathan is wielded against you.
By the standard set on Jan 6, obstruction of an official proceeding should mean criminal convictions of those who disrupted the hearing of Pete Hegseth's nomination.

The Jan 6 convictions of those who were merely there is a joke and the self-righteous here know that.
 
The article was just a good breakdown of the inner workings of the process. Yes, we all saw his decline and formed opinions about it. Mine has been very clear.

Even when Biden was in the race and was walking through the primaries, I said he should step down. I said the Democrats should fight it out at the DNC. He stepped down and anointed Harris instead. I never said the age factor was a wash. I've always said that Biden's decline was much further along than Trump's. Always. If you want to criticize me, be truthful.

I had no dog in the fight. I clearly stated many times that I strongly felt Trump is unfit for the office of President. I felt no joy that Harris was the other candidate. I still think Trump is unfit, but my opinion on that is totally irrelevant. Trump is our President now. I will support our President to the extent I feel necessary as I always do - joyfully or not. President Trump is OUR President. Celebrate it and move on.

I think his point is that Biden couldn't remember when he was in Vice President according to the interview transcripts. I think that's the most important point. I hope it spurs the Democrats into action and they replace him as nominee. At least we'd get one choice who's not old and in mental decline.

He and others have proven they don't care about protecting national security information with their ridiculously inane defense of Trump, who had almost 10 times the documents, much more recent ones, including at the highest levels of classification, and refused to return them.

Trump is losing it too. Biden needs to drop out of the primary. Other Democrats will jump in and prevent Harris from winning.

Trump needs to drop out too, but he'll never do it. He'll run from prison - and he'd lose to a significantly diminished Biden and his VP will be President before the end of the term.

Interesting. I think that’s about right and Biden is experiencing normal mental decline that comes with aging. Now they should do Trump. I think the same is true with Trump with the added mental disorders I’d guess that he has. Well, we know he’s a narcissist. I suspect other issues. The boys’ reading on him could be more interesting.

You could try it. Biden is deteriorating physically more than Trump at the moment, no doubt he looks more frail, but both are showing similar deterioration mentally related to aging. I didn’t say it was equal, but both are declining. It will accelerate for both of them in the next 5 years.

Yes. A physically frail, mentally declining Biden is more fit than a mentally declining, mentally disturbed Trump. Terrible choices, right?

Biden is declining because he’s ancient. So is Trump, but he is also mentally unstable. 😏
Always said that Biden's decline is much further along than Trump's? Again when the dog was in the fight you fought the good fight. Yes you repeatedly said that the Dems should replace him but when they weren't you fought that fight.
 
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Always said that Biden's decline is much further along than Trump's? Again when the dog was in the fight you fought the good fight. Yes you repeatedly said that the Dems should replace him but when they weren't you fought that fight.
Of course, I said all those things and more than you copied. I forget that if something is said in every single post, it was never said. I very clearly said more than once that Biden's decline was much further along than Trump's. I also said that when combined with Trump's mental issues, it's a dangerous mix.

Look, all my opinions about Trump were my honest opinions. My opinions about Biden were my honest opinions as well. The election is over, and Trump is now our President. We will live with that. I will support the President to whatever extent I feel compeled to do.

Just accept your victory and move on. I'm not interested in fighting over the election again.
 
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You're saying that no police officers were beaten over the head with flagpoles, nunchucks, and billy clubs? That the videos showing such beatings were faked? That the medical records showing broken bones and severe concussions were all just made up?

It's quite a fantasy world that you live in, pastor.
And the fantasy likely includes his claim that he’s a pastor.
 
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