The demand for racism far exceeds the supply.

[larsIU]

They are saying that it is vastly overstated

I'm not sure the sins of Jussie, Duke volleyball players/grandmothers, and some others make racism "vastly overstated". It does a tremendous disservice of course.

I'm conflicted on this though. Having spent a decent amount of time in a country that is 98% black, you can appreciate the feeling of otherness. Now, some of that is due to the foreign aspect (though it is an Engilsh speaking country) but it's there nonetheless. Having never felt uneasy before just walking around, it is always eye opening. Why do I feel uneasy? I don't know. There's very little crime. Most everybody was nice/hospitable. Unlike France, people would speak to me in English even if they were speaking to someone else in a different language.

But I still felt uneasy.

Now, I don't think African Americans have the same experience. To be sure, they make up far more of the population in the USA than whites do in Zimbabwe.

All this to say, "vastly overstated" seem like something somebody whose never had that experience would say. I'm not saying your wrong. You might very well be right.

And yes, those crying racism! at the drop of a hat (or completely made up) should be pilloried.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

You are in rare form this morning so this is probably going nowhere, but no one is saying racism does not exist. They are saying that it is vastly overstated.

You’re right.
A bunch of old white guys attempting to trivialize racism is a discussion that always goes nowhere. Your side always accuses the Left of bringing it up so they can feel better about themselves. I propose that conservatives have the same goal when trotting out the bullshit stories like Smollett (sp) as a straw man to dismiss the problems that still exist. Hell, one time, I linked a story about a black couple in Indy, showing how their house was appraised vs. when the appraiser thought the house belonged to a white couple. The story was huffed at, and, well, trivialized.
I do agree with the notion that the press adds gasoline to the fire, but the fire was there first.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I'm not sure the sins of Jussie, Duke volleyball players/grandmothers, and some others make racism "vastly overstated". It does a tremendous disservice of course.

I'm conflicted on this though. Having spent a decent amount of time in a country that is 98% black, you can appreciate the feeling of otherness. Now, some of that is due to the foreign aspect (though it is an Engilsh speaking country) but it's there nonetheless. Having never felt uneasy before just walking around, it is always eye opening. Why do I feel uneasy? I don't know. There's very little crime. Most everybody was nice/hospitable. Unlike France, people would speak to me in English even if they were speaking to someone else in a different language.

But I still felt uneasy.

Now, I don't think African Americans have the same experience. To be sure, they make up far more of the population in the USA than whites do in Zimbabwe.

All this to say, "vastly overstated" seem like something somebody whose never had that experience would say. I'm not saying your wrong. You might very well be right.

And yes, those crying racism! at the drop of a hat (or completely made up) should be pilloried.

Sorry for the ramble.

Let me explain. I am not just talking about the Smollets and Duke volleyball players of the world. I am talking about a constant drumbeat of "racism" that is put out to minority communities in the U.S. You did not make the team? Racism. You did not get the job? Racism. You did not do well on the test? Racism. Culture of hard work? Racist. Belief in the nuclear family? Racist. And on and on we can go.

If I tell you that any bad interaction you have with a white person is because they are racists (as opposed to just being an asshole in general or someone you caught on a bad day) then you begin to see racism. You look for the looks. Bad service in a restaurant is because you are black. And these things seem trivial but when you talk to people, these are the examples you receive quite often.

In your example for instance. You felt uncomfortable because you felt you were different. Those people were treating you well. You had your own issues of feeling like an "other" that we all have, but you were able to logically and rationally decide that it was probably a you issue. Would you have been able to do that if you had been brought up your whole life being told that those people were out to get you and are racist against you just as a part of their nature? Would you begin to look for slights that you were able to dismiss without it?

That is what I am talking about.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

You’re right.
A bunch of old white guys attempting to trivialize racism is a discussion that always goes nowhere. Your side always accuses the Left of bringing it up so they can feel better about themselves. I propose that conservatives have the same goal when trotting out the bullshit stories like Smollett (sp) as a straw man to dismiss the problems that still exist. Hell, one time, I linked a story about a black couple in Indy, showing how their house was appraised vs. when the appraiser thought the house belonged to a white couple. The story was huffed at, and, well, trivialized.
I do agree with the notion that the press adds gasoline to the fire, but the fire was there first.

To put it in terms @outside shooter would understand: what are the Endpoints you measure til your side determines racism is no longer an issue at scale? Income levels? Education levels? Because for every “home appraisal” story, there are many more false accusations of racism being levied with attempt to destroy lives. Or worse, woke school boards selecting teacher layoffs by race.

Someone even posted that ludicrous story from Bloomington with the video where the large Black guy was somehow being wrongfully detained by scraggly red necks and the good progressives all just believed it - even with video evidence showing the absurdity of it all - only to find out we’re talking about an activist goading red necks into it.

I can admit that there is racism - but there always will be because people are imperfect mostly dumb. The virtuous progressives think it necessary to signal, to post black squares on social media, to prostrate themselves into anti-racism, without it meaning a goddamn thing.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Let me explain. I am not just talking about the Smollets and Duke volleyball players of the world. I am talking about a constant drumbeat of "racism" that is put out to minority communities in the U.S. You did not make the team? Racism. You did not get the job? Racism. You did not do well on the test? Racism. Culture of hard work? Racist. Belief in the nuclear family? Racist. And on and on we can go.

If I tell you that any bad interaction you have with a white person is because they are racists (as opposed to just being an asshole in general or someone you caught on a bad day) then you begin to see racism. You look for the looks. Bad service in a restaurant is because you are black. And these things seem trivial but when you talk to people, these are the examples you receive quite often.

In your example for instance. You felt uncomfortable because you felt you were different. Those people were treating you well. You had your own issues of feeling like an "other" that we all have, but you were able to logically and rationally decide that it was probably a you issue. Would you have been able to do that if you had been brought up your whole life being told that those people were out to get you and are racist against you just as a part of their nature? Would you begin to look for slights that you were able to dismiss without it?

That is what I am talking about.

New Lord of the Rings is getting panned? Racism. You can’t prove it’s not true.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You’re right.
A bunch of old white guys attempting to trivialize racism is a discussion that always goes nowhere. Your side always accuses the Left of bringing it up so they can feel better about themselves. I propose that conservatives have the same goal when trotting out the bullshit stories like Smollett (sp) as a straw man to dismiss the problems that still exist. Hell, one time, I linked a story about a black couple in Indy, showing how their house was appraised vs. when the appraiser thought the house belonged to a white couple. The story was huffed at, and, well, trivialized.
I do agree with the notion that the press adds gasoline to the fire, but the fire was there first.

We went from a 5 alarm fire to a back yard BBQ that got out of control and you guys are still acting like the entire block is burning down. That is the issue. Yeah, the BBQ fire needs put under control but if 5 firetruck show up at my house to put it out because you were out front screaming like a lunatic about the horrible blaze at my house, I am going to treat you like a lunatic.

 

[bawlmer]

We went from a 5 alarm fire to a back yard BBQ that got out of control and you guys are still acting like the entire block is burning down. That is the issue. Yeah, the BBQ fire needs put under control but if 5 firetruck show up at my house to put it out because you were out front screaming like a lunatic about the horrible blaze at my house, I am going to treat you like a lunatic.

Really? A flurry of posts to mine saying I sympathize with Black paranoia about racism, and I'm the issue?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Really? A flurry of posts to mine saying I sympathize with Black paranoia about racism, and I'm the issue?

Perhaps we’re overreacting - but I flew off the handle because you seemed to (by outright stating it) be “ok” with hypersensitivity without understanding the ramifications of that. If that wasn’t a serious statement then I apologize.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Really? A flurry of posts to mine saying I sympathize with Black paranoia about racism, and I'm the issue?

A flurry of posts to yours? The message I am typing now is the first time I have responded to you in this thread.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

To put it in terms @outside shooter would understand: what are the Endpoints you measure til your side determines racism is no longer an issue at scale? Income levels? Education levels? Because for every “home appraisal” story, there are many more false accusations of racism being levied with attempt to destroy lives. Or worse, woke school boards selecting teacher layoffs by race.

Someone even posted that ludicrous story from Bloomington with the video where the large Black guy was somehow being wrongfully detained by scraggly red necks and the good progressives all just believed it - even with video evidence showing the absurdity of it all - only to find out we’re talking about an activist goading red necks into it.

I can admit that there is racism - but there always will be because people are imperfect mostly dumb. The virtuous progressives think it necessary to signal, to post black squares on social media, to prostrate themselves into anti-racism, without it meaning a goddamn thing.

I agree… and white conservatives find it necessary to trivialize for the same reason.
It’s interesting that you brought up “woke” schools. I was seriously thinking of flooding IUCrazy’s thread about poor behavior in schools with links to stories of teachers being selfless, heroic, loving, overworked, etc. i changed my mind because I figured it would have no effect.
Which bring me to my final point…it’s interesting how conservatives treat their big issue (Wokeism) much like the Left treats racism, and vice versa in how they treat the other side’s stance.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I agree… and white conservatives find it necessary to trivialize for the same reason.
It’s interesting that you brought up “woke” schools. I was seriously thinking of flooding IUCrazy’s thread about poor behavior in schools with links to stories of teachers being selfless, heroic, loving, overworked, etc. i changed my mind because I figured it would have no effect.
Which bring me to my final point…it’s interesting how conservatives treat their big issue (Wokeism) much like the Left treats racism, and vice versa in how they treat the other side’s stance.

Reflexively ignoring the positive sides of wokeness (as you would define it which would mean positive steps towards needed progress) is just as bad as reflexively assuming racism everywhere. The difference is that conservatives don’t have a stranglehold on college curricula and are not coddling nor brainwashing our youth.

 

[IUclover]

One party on this forum is more obsessed with racism and whine about it than those who they are targeting.

How many of you have been called a racist by an actual person and not online? Not your party and sound bites but an actual person.

 

[Bligedy]

I didn't grow up that far back, but I'll be damned if I don't think every future event where a black person cries racism is first a Juicy Smuoliet or Rachel Richardson. Hell, despite a thorough investigation including 50 interviews and video review, nothing concerning was found.

And yet, the loser running South Carolina's women's bball team is refusing to play BYU. That stupid decision is a shame for all involved

The worst part of those stories is the number of people that badly wanted them to be true.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

One party on this forum is more obsessed with racism and whine about it than those who they are targeting.

How many of you have been called a racist by an actual person and not online? Not your party and sound bites but an actual person.

In many circles of your similar political persuasion we are all considered colonists and racists. Im not worried about me as an individual but I am greatly concerned over the brainwashing happening in colleges amd HR departments and how that will play out systemically. You should be too.

 

[bawlmer]

Perhaps we’re overreacting - but I flew off the handle because you seemed to (by outright stating it) be “ok” with hypersensitivity without understanding the ramifications of that. If that wasn’t a serious statement then I apologize.

I didn't begin from a very clear position. There's nothing okay about media outlets running with any unsubstantiated story just because it aligns with their perspective.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Reflexively ignoring the positive sides of wokeness (as you would define it which would mean positive steps towards needed progress) is just as bad as reflexively assuming racism everywhere. The difference is that conservatives don’t have a stranglehold on college curricula and are not coddling nor brainwashing our youth.

Racists/white nationalists aren’t brainwashing youth? Should I start a thread?

 

[IUCrazy2]

I was seriously thinking of flooding IUCrazy’s thread about poor behavior in schools with links to stories of teachers being selfless, heroic, loving, overworked, etc.

I could give you examples of some of that from my own children's teachers. I also have anecdotes in the other direction. Both of these things can exist on the same plane because teachers are people and people tend to run the gamut on personalities and beliefs.

What we are asking is that the "beliefs" side of that equation be kept within certain parameters while the teachers are in school with our kids.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Racists/white nationalists aren’t brainwashing youth? Should I start a thread?

Sure please do. Please show me a graph of the number of kids in college now and in last 10 years of wokeism and show the number of racist and white nationalist kids. I’ll wait.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I could give you examples of some of that from my own children's teachers. I also have anecdotes in the other direction. Both of these things can exist on the same plane because teachers are people and people tend to run the gamut on personalities and beliefs.

What we are asking is that the "beliefs" side of that equation be kept within certain parameters while the teachers are in school with our kids.

Finally, common ground.
I knew you would come around. (lol)

 

[larsIU]

Would you have been able to do that if you had been brought up your whole life being told that those people were out to get you and are racist against you just as a part of their nature?

Well, therein lies the rub. I do honestly believe most black folks in America have experienced some form of racism in their lives. Maybe not the overt racism of the Jim Crow years but racism nonetheless.

In my example I failed to mention there is quite a bit of animus towards white people in Zimbabwe. Probably for very legitimate reasons as that country finally got independence in 1980. My wife was born in 1972. Many in the current population lived under a racist government. Now, they're close to two generations removed from that but there is still a lingering unease about white people in that country.

Now, did I experience it overtly while I was there? No, but there were looks and dismissals which I definitely felt. Did it bother me that much? No, as I was only there a few weeks.

Many white people in the US are uneasy around black people. Is that uneasiness racism? The white person would say no. The black person though..?

I do agree that the anti-racist playbook of calling people colonizers or stereotyping all whites as racist is a non-starter to solve any problems.

Would you begin to look for slights that you were able to dismiss without it?

Possibly, though I wasn't there long enough. Also, I grew up in the USA so my frame of reference was developed far differently.

---

Thanks for your responses on this. I believe, as I'm sure you do, that racism should be rooted out and exposed. Fake stories hinder anybody's ability to do so.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Random thought....but we're all of a certain age right? Our views of what the press should and can be are, no doubt, tinted by the journalism of Watergate, Iran-Contra, the S&L disaster. Hell, even Whitewater, etc. There was a time when the press was interested in sticking it to the man, so to speak. They really did "speak truth to power".

However, I don't consider most of what's on TV these days to be journalism. It's opinion and rabble rousing.

But there's no money in newspapers or long form journalism anymore. The money is in cable "news" which has followed the path of ESPN.

Do you remember when ESPN was just mostly sports and Sportscenter with the occasional Sunday morning talk show thrown in. Turn it on RIGHT NOW and I bet it's two people arguing about something.

Cable news providers saw the money being made off of CONFLICT and decided to cash in. But they didn't do it with William Buckley and Chris Hitchens did they? Nope. We got Tucker Carlson and Keith Olberman.

Conflict sells. Creates teams. Creates division. In the sports world it's fun and games. Not so much when they are talking serious topics like racism, wealth inequality, etc. Those topics should be discussed soberly. And the worst part, you can't admit you're wrong. Look at how many of us defended Bob Knight's arrogance and boorish behavior or how many will tell you Tom Allen is going to lead us to the promised land.

Spot on. I also think this kind of thinking and portrayal of conflict in the media is bleeding into education. My kids seem to be taught how to argue a point to the death, but hardly ever how to think about those issues or how to see things from the other side (I plan on requiring them to do debate team (is that still a thing? I've never done it) to try to combat this.

And--sorry to steal your thunder here, IGW--as long as the mainstream media are profit centers (i.e. structured as corps or owned by corps), that will remain true, I think.

I'm not even sure making them non-profits would help, since even many non-profits now seem to be exagerrating problems so that people will donate so that they can solve them. I spent some time in the non-profit fundraising world (as a volunteer for an organization) and attended conferences where speakers talked about fundraising, so have seen (and heard prof. fundraisers discuss) the incentives first hand.

So I don't know the solution. But we need one.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Sure please do. Please show me a graph of the number of kids in college now and in last 10 years of wokeism and show the number of racist and white nationalist kids. I’ll wait.

The problem with that is your side does empirical studies that take place in institutions. And the definition of woke has been stretched so far as to render it almost as useless as your quote about how if everything is racist, nothing
is.
Meanwhile, racism doesn’t thrive as well in the
light of day, and I doubt if many explicit curricular examples are out there.
Anyway, I wasn’t saying my thread would rival the woke school thread in quantity, but in quality of disgust, well…

 

[IUCrazy2]

Finally, common ground.
I knew you would come around. (lol)

For what it is worth, I have always held that ground. I don't want a heroic, selfless, awesome teacher who happens to be a Trump supporter going all MAGA in the class either. It is not the appropriate venue to push that onto other people's kids.

It only seems that we just recently got out of whack on all of this. We have had pretty good working relationships with the vast majority of teachers my boys have had. Even the ones who crossed the line (from my POV) on some stuff were not bad teachers, they just got out of their lane.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I'm not sure the sins of Jussie, Duke volleyball players/grandmothers, and some others make racism "vastly overstated". It does a tremendous disservice of course.

I'm conflicted on this though. Having spent a decent amount of time in a country that is 98% black, you can appreciate the feeling of otherness. Now, some of that is due to the foreign aspect (though it is an Engilsh speaking country) but it's there nonetheless. Having never felt uneasy before just walking around, it is always eye opening. Why do I feel uneasy? I don't know. There's very little crime. Most everybody was nice/hospitable. Unlike France, people would speak to me in English even if they were speaking to someone else in a different language.

But I still felt uneasy.

Now, I don't think African Americans have the same experience. To be sure, they make up far more of the population in the USA than whites do in Zimbabwe.

All this to say, "vastly overstated" seem like something somebody whose never had that experience would say. I'm not saying your wrong. You might very well be right.

And yes, those crying racism! at the drop of a hat (or completely made up) should be pilloried.

Sorry for the ramble.

But that feeling you had wasn't experiencing racism, was it?

That's kinda the point of a lot of this--a minority feeling funny about being around a majority population is something completely different than racism--than that majority population thinking you are inferior because of your inmutable, irrelevant, physical characteristics. This latter phenomena is found in the world today MUCH, MUCH less than it was in the past. To deny that, is to deny reality, and quite frankly is insulting to (1) the people who had to endure far worse in the past, and (2) all the people who worked really hard--literally dedicated their lives--to reduce racism in this country over the last 60 years.

Nothing I just wrote means I think, or logically leads to the conclusion that, racism is dead in the United States. It is not and I don't think that. But the amount of time and effort spent talking about it and making up new things to call racism (many times false, many times harmful), is out of whack with where we are right now, in my opinion.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Well, therein lies the rub. I do honestly believe most black folks in America have experienced some form of racism in their lives. Maybe not the overt racism of the Jim Crow years but racism nonetheless.

In my example I failed to mention there is quite a bit of animus towards white people in Zimbabwe. Probably for very legitimate reasons as that country finally got independence in 1980. My wife was born in 1972. Many in the current population lived under a racist government. Now, they're close to two generations removed from that but there is still a lingering unease about white people in that country.

Now, did I experience it overtly while I was there? No, but there were looks and dismissals which I definitely felt. Did it bother me that much? No, as I was only there a few weeks.

Many white people in the US are uneasy around black people. Is that uneasiness racism? The white person would say no. The black person though..?

I do agree that the anti-racist playbook of calling people colonizers or stereotyping all whites as racist is a non-starter to solve any problems.



Possibly, though I wasn't there long enough. Also, I grew up in the USA so my frame of reference was developed far differently.

---

Thanks for your responses on this. I believe, as I'm sure you do, that racism should be rooted out and exposed. Fake stories hinder anybody's ability to do so.

I think racism should be dealt with when it rears its head. It shouldn't be acceptable. I don't think you can eradicate it though, all you can do is make it socially unacceptable to express or act upon it. And I really think we are getting close to as good as we can get on that.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

The problem with that is your side does empirical studies that take place in institutions. And the definition of woke has been stretched so far as to render it almost as useless as your quote about how if everything is racist, nothing
is.
Meanwhile, racism doesn’t thrive as well in the
light of day, and I doubt if many explicit curricular examples are out there.
Anyway, I wasn’t saying my thread would rival the woke school thread in quantity, but in quality of disgust, well…

Teaching kids to be racists is not similar in quality to woke brainwashing - it’s much more disgusting. But forced wokeness has led and will lead to terrible outcomes as a whole and it’s much more prevalent.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

racism exists. deal with it.

as does reverse racism.

that said, Wall St and Koch and the Wall St corporate media keeping the masses fighting and pitted against each other 24/7 over social issues, as they've done for well over a hundred yrs on that very strategy, to keep the working class from uniting against the entrenched rich who are the real enemy of the masses on all sides, is what this is really about.

and what your thread starter post is really about.

keep up the non stop instigating trolling. that's what you're here for, right?

Your anti-corporate mentality ruins you

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

You’re right.
A bunch of old white guys attempting to trivialize racism is a discussion that always goes nowhere. Your side always accuses the Left of bringing it up so they can feel better about themselves. I propose that conservatives have the same goal when trotting out the bullshit stories like Smollett (sp) as a straw man to dismiss the problems that still exist. Hell, one time, I linked a story about a black couple in Indy, showing how their house was appraised vs. when the appraiser thought the house belonged to a white couple. The story was huffed at, and, well, trivialized.
I do agree with the notion that the press adds gasoline to the fire, but the fire was there first.

Throwing in the phrase "a bunch of old white guys" is simply ad hominem. It's a logical fallacy.

So is claiming that "your side always. . ." [If that side is the Right or Repubs, I'm not even on that side]

So is claiming that the "goal" of the argument is something bad.

Both sides engage in ad hominem; they should not.

I'd love to hear your opinions on the ideas, not the people advancing the ideas.

 

[larsIU]

But that feeling you had wasn't experiencing racism, was it?

That's kinda the point of a lot of this--a minority feeling funny about being around a majority population is something completely different than racism--than that majority population thinking you are inferior because of your inmutable, irrelevant, physical characteristics. This latter phenomena is found in the world today MUCH, MUCH less than it was in the past. To deny that, is to deny reality, and quite frankly is insulting to (1) the people who had to endure far worse in the past, and (2) all the people who worked really hard--literally dedicated their lives--to reduce racism in this country over the last 60 years.

Nothing I just wrote means I think, or logical leads to the conclusion that, racism is dead in the United States. It is not and I don't think that. But the amount of time and effort spent talking about it and making up new things to call racism (many times false, many times harmful), is out of whack with where we are right now, in my opinion.

I saw the word inferior in your response and it got me thinking.

In Zimbabwe, many blacks don't like whites. But, it's not because they think whites are inferior, per se. They just don't like them. Again, probably due to their recent history of colonialism and that many of the black population who experienced that overt type of racism are still alive and passed along their unease to their children.

Certainly none of the people who stared at or dismissed me know me personally but their unease was palpable. Is that racism? I don't know.

I agree that, especially in the US, overt racism is by orders of magnitude less than it was even 2-3 generations ago. Yet, like Zimbabwe's black population, many whites in this country are uneasy around black people.

1. Why?
2. Is that racism?

I'll answer both but would love to hear your thoughts.

1. For all of our ability to connect these days, we also have found it much easier to retreat to our burrows. Even geographically. Whites live in suburbs or gentrified parts of cities. Blacks don't. We go to different schools as children (which begs the question of whether bussing was absolutely the right thing to do in the 60's and 70's). Any money spent on an anti-racist program should immediately be diverted to just getting blacks/hispanics/whites together in the same spaces. I do agree with Ranger that we appeared to be getting closer to a post racial society in the 90's and 00's. We may never "achieve" that goal but we seem to be drifting away from it.

2. Yes...maybe. Shit, I don't know. But we're into "feelings" now. Things which can't be objectively measured. But this is where the conversation needs to start.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I saw the word inferior in your response and it got me thinking.

In Zimbabwe, many blacks don't like whites. But, it's not because they think whites are inferior, per se. They just don't like them. Again, probably due to their recent history of colonialism and that many of the black population who experienced that overt type of racism are still alive and passed along their unease to their children.

Certainly none of the people who stared at or dismissed me know me personally but their unease was palpable. Is that racism? I don't know.

I agree that, especially in the US, overt racism is by orders of magnitude less than it was even 2-3 generations ago. Yet, like Zimbabwe's black population, many whites in this country are uneasy around black people.

1. Why?
2. Is that racism?

I'll answer both but would love to hear your thoughts.

1. For all of our ability to connect these days, we also have found it much easier to retreat to our burrows. Even geographically. Whites live in suburbs or gentrified parts of cities. Blacks don't. We go to different schools as children (which begs the question of whether bussing was absolutely the right thing to do in the 60's and 70's). Any money spent on an anti-racist program should immediately be diverted to just getting blacks/hispanics/whites together in the same spaces. I do agree with Ranger that we appeared to be getting closer to a post racial society in the 90's and 00's. We may never "achieve" that goal but we seem to be drifting away from it.

2. Yes

1. They feel uncomfortable when there are differences. So a middle-class or upper class white person will not typically feel uncomfortable around middle-class or upper class black people. But put people of different classes together, and the differences make them uncomfortable-in the way the "other" talks, lives, thinks, etc. That goes both ways: I grew up lower middle class and still feel very uncomfortable around groups of upper class white people--I feel out of place and judged, even if I have more degrees, they treat me politely, etc. It also applies to poor black people hanging out with rich black people and vice versa.

This also applies to a Catholic going to a Protestant or Jewish or Muslim service, surrounded by people of the other religion and vice versa. It applies to an English speaker going to a party where all the people there are of the same class, skin color, etc. but everyone is speaking French or German and immigrated from there. It is the differences that lead to the discomfort. I don't think people think of skin color alone as anything much more than different hair color (or at least that's what I hope, I guess).

2. No, that's not racism.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Throwing in the phrase "a bunch of old white guys" is simply ad hominem. It's a logical fallacy.

So is claiming that "your side always. . ." [If that side is the Right or Repubs, I'm not even on that side]

So is claiming that the "goal" of the argument is something bad.

Both sides engage in ad hominem; they should not.

I'd love to hear your opinions on the ideas, not the people advancing the ideas.

I wasn't using "old white guys" as anything other than a description (of me, too) of the people involved in the discussion. If I'm wrong about the makeup of this board, I'll apologize. While there may be salient points, it is overrun with talk from people who have little skin in the game, and the resultant biases, while mostly innocent, creep in.
Are you saying that a bunch of old black guys would be having the same discussion on the presence/current effects of racism, given their life experiences?

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

This is nothing but trying to apply the extreme elements of a party with the entire party.

It would be like saying all conservatives are racist because white supremists tend to vote on that side.

Applying to an entire party isn't factual.

Racism still exists unfortunately and I would rather be over-sensitive to it than act like it doesn't exist or that it is not an issue.

 

[larsIU]

1. They feel uncomfortable when there are differences. So a middle-class or upper class white person will not typically feel uncomfortable around middle-class or upper class black people. But put people of different classes together, and the differences make them uncomfortable-in the way the "other" talks, lives, thinks, etc. That goes both ways: I grew up lower middle class and still feel very uncomfortable around groups of upper class white people--I feel out of place and judged, even if I have more degrees, they treat me politely, etc. It also applies to poor black people hanging out with rich black people and vice versa.

This also applies to a Catholic going to a Protestant or Jewish or Muslim service, surrounded by people of the other religion and vice versa. It applies to an English speaker going to a party where all the people there are of the same class, skin color, etc. but everyone is speaking French or German and immigrated from there. It is the differences that lead to the discomfort. I don't think people think of skin color alone as anything much more than different hair color (or at least that's what I hope, I guess).

2. No, that's not racism.

Good analogy and I agree relative to the socio economic differences mentioned. I remember the first time (b/c there've been more) an invite to a birthday party for my daughter's friends included a code to get into the neighborhood or driveway of the person's house. It was not a good feeling.

Using the adage that "perception is reality", how do we deal with this friction without letting it devolve into arguing about racism?

I don't think people think of skin color alone as anything much more than different hair color (or at least that's what I hope, I guess).

Is that because we (I'll include myself) have never experienced racism or a certain uneasiness we can't fully explain?

 

[larsIU]

it is overrun with talk from people who have little skin in the game

I see what you did there. Touche.

 

[ORG]

In the scheme of things, is hyper-racial sensitivity so awful? Compared to where we've been in my lifetime, it's probably a price worth paying.

It may be a price you want to pay but not me.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I agree… and white conservatives find it necessary to trivialize for the same reason.
It’s interesting that you brought up “woke” schools. I was seriously thinking of flooding IUCrazy’s thread about poor behavior in schools with links to stories of teachers being selfless, heroic, loving, overworked, etc. i changed my mind because I figured it would have no effect.
Which bring me to my final point…it’s interesting how conservatives treat their big issue (Wokeism) much like the Left treats racism, and vice versa in how they treat the other side’s stance.

Bulk there is a giant difference there: the reason the title of Crazy's thread is "It isn't in schools" is because there are people on this board and a narrative on MSNBC, etc. that wokeness/CRT/anti-racism is not present AT ALL in schools. That Fox and the Right Wing just INVENTED this issue, out of whole cloth, to rile people up.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anyone on here argue that racism is dead in the United States. Do you see the difference?

Literally, all one has to do is say "you know, there is some excess going on in the schools and that's not right" to reach agreement here on this issue with me, and maybe Ranger, and IUCRazy (I don't mean to speak for them). Yet some on here can't even do that, despite all the articles posted and evidence presented. Why is that?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Bulk there is a giant difference there: the reason the title of Crazy's thread is "It isn't in schools" is because there are people on this board and a narrative on MSNBC, etc. that wokeness/CRT/anti-racism is not present AT ALL in schools. That Fox and the Right Wing just INVENTED this issue, out of whole cloth, to rile people up.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anyone on here argue that racism is dead in the United States. Do you see the difference?

Literally, all one has to do is say "you know, there is some excess going on in the schools and that's not right" to reach agreement here on this issue with me, and maybe Ranger, and IUCRazy (I don't mean to speak for them). Yet some on here can't even do that, despite all the articles posted and evidence presented. Why is that?

They're dumb?
I certainly have not said it, and I haven't seen much of it from others. In fact, I have encouraged Crazy to be involved and be an advocate for his kids. What I do see, and once again, I could be wrong, is that most people are arguing against throwing out the baby with the bath water. Schools are in a position that they pretty much have to teach kids how to treat each other, even at the cost of academic time (another huge sore spot with the conservatives). Why do you think schools have to do that? Could it be that kids are dropped off daily, for over 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, in rooms with 20 other kids, having received little to no parenting on how to coexist? I don't know. I'll bet most teachers wish they could just teach the academic curriculum, and not have to deal with the shortcomings of home life. I know the high school teachers I'm friends with want to teach physics, or math, or literature, and not have to deal with conflict resolution, or SEL topics at all. Wouldn't that be great?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I wasn't using "old white guys" as anything other than a description (of me, too) of the people involved in the discussion. If I'm wrong about the makeup of this board, I'll apologize. While there may be salient points, it is overrun with talk from people who have little skin in the game, and the resultant biases, while mostly innocent, creep in.
Are you saying that a bunch of old black guys would be having the same discussion on the presence/current effects of racism, given their life experiences?

Regarding the affects of anti-racist policy, I have a lot of skin in the game--my kids' education and the tens-of-thousands of dollars I spend in property taxes for a school that used to have honors courses and now does not and the parochial school I now might have to send my kids to so they can get the educational opportunities I never had.

So if we are going to advance ad hominem attacks and operate under an assumption that only people directly affected by certain polices are allowed to comment, maybe those without school-aged children need to silence themselves regarding school policies and accept the viewpoints of those of us with children in schools that are instituting these policies, since these others have no "skin in the game" ? *

*I don't believe that to be true, but based on your reasoning, it would apply.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

They're dumb?
I certainly have not said it, and I haven't seen much of it from others. In fact, I have encouraged Crazy to be involved and be an advocate for his kids. What I do see, and once again, I could be wrong, is that most people are arguing against throwing out the baby with the bath water. Schools are in a position that they pretty much have to teach kids how to treat each other, even at the cost of academic time (another huge sore spot with the conservatives). Why do you think schools have to do that? Could it be that kids are dropped off daily, for over 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, in rooms with 20 other kids, having received little to no parenting on how to coexist? I don't know. I'll bet most teachers wish they could just teach the academic curriculum, and not have to deal with the shortcomings of home life. I know the high school teachers I'm friends with want to teach physics, or math, or literature, and not have to deal with conflict resolution, or SEL topics at all. Wouldn't that be great?

I have been a big proponent of SEL on this board. I want elementary school children taught emotional regulation skills, etc. I don't want them taught about Whiteness and "equity."

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I have been a big proponent of SEL on this board. I want elementary school children taught emotional regulation skills, etc. I don't want them taught about Whiteness and "equity."

So long as SEL in elementary is taught by an expert it’s cool with me. Asking a normal teacher to teach it is asking for poor interpretation and pedagogy.