Shoe Guys vs. Program Guys

[MikeHoncho69]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

 

[bailey777]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

Michigan did very well staying away from shoe guys, one and dones,etc. They got alot of guys ranked in the #40 to #125 area and build some really good teams. He also got several foreign guys. The only way you will consistanly be in on top 30 guys is to sell your sould and get down in the gutter with LSU and Kentucky, etc. It seem to only be getting worse.

 

[bailey777]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

One and done was the worst thing ever for college bbal imo. It tainted the game and made a bunch of guys with zero interest in being in college use it as a one year NBA tryout.

 

[cryano]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

Thats some crazy talk...
Lets get really good by avoiding the really good players!

Its kind of like saying saying - ‘I dont want to date any hot girls...I only want to date fat and or ugly chicks...’

...bith scenarios acting like its a decision that was arrived to consciously and by choice...

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Its kind of like saying saying - ‘I dont want to date any hot girls...I only want to date fat and or ugly chicks...’

Is there truly a reason to bring Purdue cheerleaders in on this?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Thats some crazy talk...
Lets get really good by avoiding the really good players!

Its kind of like saying saying - ‘I dont want to date any hot girls...I only want to date fat and or ugly chicks...’

...bith scenarios acting like its a decision that was arrived to consciously and by choice...

No, it more like the choice between hitting on a insanely hot girl you think is probably an escort, and will drop you once you stop paying her...or a really pretty girl who you know likes you for you, and may turn out to be the one.

(Sorry about the analogy that is totally foreign to you...it was more for the rest of the board.)

 

[Minotaur92]

Thats some crazy talk...
Lets get really good by avoiding the really good players!

Its kind of like saying saying - ‘I dont want to date any hot girls...I only want to date fat and or ugly chicks...’

...bith scenarios acting like its a decision that was arrived to consciously and by choice...

This post assumes that really, really good collegiate players can't be found outside of the OAD's. Which, of course, is wrong.

The approach seems to be, "We have almost a 0 probability of getting said players unless we cheat and risk my job and sanctions. So, lets go after guys that will be here for 3-4 years and help establish a winning culture!" Which, of course, is a smart approach unless we want to begin swimming with the sharks.

 

[brianiu]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

I think this is a good way to go. There were 26 five star players in the 2017 class. Of those 16 played one year of college before going pro. None of them played in a Final Four. Three guys never played in college. Five other players have declared for this year draft. PJ Washington and Jontay Porter have already announced they are staying in th draft while Nick Richards, Kris Wilks and Jaylen Hands have not announced their intentions. The other two five stars from that class are Emannuel Akot who transfered from Arizona to Boise Sr and Quade Green, who transfered from Kentucky to Washington.

I have nothing against one and dones but I think you need to build your team first and then recruit guys you think can put you over the top

 

[TR32]

I don't know who a "shoe guy" is, but I don't think stars are ever properly handed out based on actual ability to win games.

I would go one farther than arguing that some guys only care about getting to the NBA, and that is to say that most of them don't even care about being the best they can be, they just want that rookie pay day.

 

[cryano]

This post assumes that really, really good collegiate players can't be found outside of the OAD's. Which, of course, is wrong.

The approach seems to be, "We have almost a 0 probability of getting said players unless we cheat and risk my job and sanctions. So, lets go after guys that will be here for 3-4 years and help establish a winning culture!" Which, of course, is a smart approach unless we want to begin swimming with the sharks.

Swimming with the sharks...hell we may as well be chumming the waters....

Have you noticed our recruiting battles coning down to IU, LSU, Memphis this year...
and IU, UL, Kansas last year?
Throw in Archie’s own bloodline being Calipari and his own brother Sean Miller...

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Swimming with the sharks...hell we may as well be chumming the waters....

Have you noticed our recruiting battles coning down to IU, LSU, Memphis this year...
and IU, UL, Kansas last year?
Throw in Archie’s own bloodline being Calipari and his own brother Sean Miller...

And...your troll point?

 

[OhioBoiler51]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

Doing that several years in a row and getting old is a good recipe for success. I think Wiley at Auburn was the only non Duke/Kentucky 5* player in the elite 8 and the only 5* in the final 4.

 

[fpeaugh]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

So you didn’t want TJD or Brooks? Or Romeo?

This BS is comical. Archie wants 5 star recruits. Every coach does. If he hasn’t offered that just means he doesn’t think IU is a serious contender for them at this time.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

Do you feel like Archie has everybody fooled, do you?

 

[fpeaugh]

One and done was the worst thing ever for college bbal imo. It tainted the game and made a bunch of guys with zero interest in being in college use it as a one year NBA tryout.

“A bunch of guys” is only about 4-6 players per year. It’s not a big deal.

A lot of kids are ready after one year. Very few are ready out of HS.

 

[fpeaugh]

Doing that several years in a row and getting old is a good recipe for success. I think Wiley at Auburn was the only non Duke/Kentucky 5* player in the elite 8 and the only 5* in the final 4.

So 3 out of 8 Elite 8 teams had 5 star freshmen? And those 3 teams probably had 8-9 of the 15-20 OAD players? Do you not understand statistics?

 

[VanPastorMan]

Based on Archie Miller's reported offers to 2020 prospects, it seems as if he's making a calculated effort to stay away from the so-called "shoe guys" and, instead, focus his efforts on "program guys" who will contribute to establishing the culture he desires.

IU hasn't offered any of Rivals' 5-star prospects. The highest-rated player holding an IU offer is Nimari Burnett, a 4-star shooting guard rated 25th nationally that the Hoosiers don't appear to be seriously pursuing at this juncture.

It's a refreshing approach, and one in which we avoid all the bull**** that comes along with recruiting shoe guys who use college programs as one-year pit stops on the way to the NBA.

It's always good to get one of those guys once in a while. Your program needs to be mostly the 3 to 4 yr guys. But when you get that one special talent then it really works well. Syracuse won the title because they had Carmelo along with some very good players who were not as talented as he was.

 

[OhioBoiler51]

So 3 out of 8 Elite 8 teams had 5 star freshmen? And those 3 teams probably had 8-9 of the 15-20 OAD players? Do you not understand statistics?

5* players in general. Wiley, the only one who played in the final 4 was a sophomore so not a OAD and there were several on each of Kentucky/Duke that weren't freshman but those teams lost to experienced teams. What were the statistics I didn't get? 6 of the 8 teams in the elite 8 had a combined 1 5* is basically what I said.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

5* players in general. Wiley, the only one who played in the final 4 was a sophomore so not a OAD and there were several on each of Kentucky/Duke that weren't freshman but those teams lost to experienced teams. What were the statistics I didn't get? 6 of the 8 teams in the elite 8 had a combined 1 5* is basically what I said.

Reading comprehension is not one of feepaw's strengths . . .

 

[OhioBoiler51]

Reading comprehension is not one of feepaw's strengths . . .

One of those people that needs to take the opposite side no matter the topic. We all know someone like that.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

One of those people that needs to take the opposite side no matter the topic. We all know someone like that.

I've got no issues with that - as long as the person can give reasonable, logical arguments for their position. Feepaw doesn't qualify.

 

[fpeaugh]

5* players in general. Wiley, the only one who played in the final 4 was a sophomore so not a OAD and there were several on each of Kentucky/Duke that weren't freshman but those teams lost to experienced teams. What were the statistics I didn't get? 6 of the 8 teams in the elite 8 had a combined 1 5* is basically what I said.

So again, 3 out of 8 had 5 star players. And this year that number was abnormally low.

Then you consider probably 5% of D1 teams have a 5 star but nearly 40% of Elite 8 teams were from that 5% category. Do you need me to explain this further?

 

[OhioBoiler51]

So again, 3 out of 8 had 5 star players. And this year that number was abnormally low.

Then you consider probably 5% of D1 teams have a 5 star but nearly 40% of Elite 8 teams were from that 5% category. Do you need me to explain this further?

Nope because it doesn't change what I said.

 

[minneman]

Swimming with the sharks...hell we may as well be chumming the waters....

Have you noticed our recruiting battles coning down to IU, LSU, Memphis this year...
and IU, UL, Kansas last year?
Throw in Archie’s own bloodline being Calipari and his own brother Sean Miller...

Instead of using innuendo just quit being a coward and say what you mean.

 

[TommyCracker]

We just need to get the best talent that's actually going to stay for multiple years.

Get old as they say.

Cassius Winston was a five star...and he's going to play four years and probably be a two time conference MVP.

He played secondary minutes behind Narin (I think) as a freshman. He had flashes but was too inconsistent as a freshman.

Yogi was a five star that stayed and went from a role player as a freshman to a conference MVP level player as a senior.

I rip on Romeo's season last year because it was....great for a freshman but underwhelming for a superstar who is supposed to carry his team on just his awesomeness, but upperclassmen Romeo should be/would be drastically different than skinny, freshman Romeo.

Noah Vonleh would have been one of the best players in the conference if he stuck around as an upperclassman.

Most championship level teams are old.

The key is getting the best talent that is going to stick around and grow/develop in the program.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

We just need to get the best talent that's actually going to stay for multiple years . . . Most championship level teams are old.

The key is getting the best talent that is going to stick around and grow/develop in the program.

This^

Does it suck right now? Yeah, and maybe we should have won more this past year. Then again, a LOT of things went south: injuries that hurt inside depth / development; injuries to Romeo’s/Al’s shooting hands; suspended players; parents on social media and chemistry issues. Above all, a lack of leadership.

Teams that get old eliminate a lot of that just through the culture that gets established. Really looking forward to seeing a senior Al and a junior Phinisee in the IU backcourt along with Hunter, TJD, Race & Joey up front.

 

[brianiu]

Both Austin Wiley and Cassius Winston, mentioned here as five stars, were high four stars on the 24/7 rankings which average out multiple different ranking services. This means that like Jackson-Davis, they were rated five stars on some sites but lower on others. I think this portends well for us with Jackson-Davis as a lot of the low five star/ high four star guys stay three or four years and develop and improve with the team that signed them. Every year almost every top ten player goes pro. Going after the bottom half/third of five stars is not a bad strategy.

 

[All4You]

“A bunch of guys” is only about 4-6 players per year. It’s not a big deal.

A lot of kids are ready after one year. Very few are ready out of HS.

4-6 players per year? Have you watched the NBA draft recently? About half the kids taken are one and dones or their Euro equivalents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NBA_draft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NBA_draft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NBA_draft

If you think the 9 months these kids spend in a college basketball program takes them from "not being ready" to "being ready" for the NBA then you are kidding yourself. There is absolutely nothing these kids get from that 9 months from a maturity or coaching up standpoint in college that they couldn't get in the NBA. The only difference now is that in the 90's and early 00's, the NBA was afraid to pull the trigger on HS kids unless they had transcendent level talent...but not so much now. These days they take on freshman and young Euro projects, based solely on potential, at an exponentially higher clip than they used to. They are much less risk averse these days.

The OAD rule is antiquated, unnecessary and ultimately detrimental to college basketball.

 

[ufo33]

“A bunch of guys” is only about 4-6 players per year. It’s not a big deal.

A lot of kids are ready after one year. Very few are ready out of HS.

The G-League could transform into a true NBA Minor League for the top 30+ HS players every year, to bypass college altogether. The push is to have NBA talent kids never play for a true scholastic HS or College basketball team, only those controlled by shoe companies, handlers, and NBA agents. Elite AAU, National Prep School, G-League, NBA. There is a possibility that in the future only the late bloomers, late developers, and diamonds in the rough will play college basketball. It could become the least watchable brand of college basketball ever. We will see. If G-League does not transform then the impact of a one and done rule change will be minimal. The push is for a transformative change away from college basketball to a direct pipeline to the NBA that does not include traditional HS and College teams.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

The G-League could transform into a true NBA Minor League for the top 30+ HS players every year, to bypass college altogether. The push is to have NBA talent kids never play for a true scholastic HS or College basketball team, only those controlled by shoe companies, handlers, and NBA agents. Elite AAU, National Prep School, G-League, NBA. There is a possibility that in the future only the late bloomers, late developers, and diamonds in the rough will play college basketball. It could become the least watchable brand of college basketball ever. We will see. If G-League does not transform then the impact of a one and done rule change will be minimal. The push is for a transformative change away from college basketball to a direct pipeline to the NBA that does not include traditional HS and College teams.

Why would it make college basketball unwatchable? I read the book "The Last Amateurs" by John Feinstein, where he spent a year in the Patriot League. The brand of basketball was exciting because the players were good (not great), dedicated, hard-working, intense, and very invested in playing for their schools. The drama was high every night, and the rivalries were strong.

 

[ufo33]

Why would it make college basketball unwatchable? I read the book "The Last Amateurs" by John Feinstein, where he spent a year in the Patriot League. The brand of basketball was exciting because the players were good (not great), dedicated, hard-working, intense, and very invested in playing for their schools. The drama was high every night, and the rivalries were strong.

I enjoy watching NAIA basketball in Indiana as many of the top teams in the nation are from Indiana. D1 College Basketball has always been exciting because you are watching future NBA level players while they are developing in college. Unless it is an Indiana HS player that i have watched in HS, I am probably not tuning in to watch a Patriot League game on Satellite. However I watched Zion, Barnett, Reddish and Duke and Kyle Guy and Virginia a lot during the season along with B1G games. I plan on watching Cole Anthony next year at North Carolina for the same reason. It may be watchable, certainly not as exciting, and lower level talent. Right now the NBA is more enjoyable to watch than college basketball, just like the NFL is better to watch than college football, MLB is better than college baseball, NHL is better than college hockey.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I enjoy watching NAIA basketball in Indiana as many of the top teams in the nation are from Indiana. D1 College Basketball has always been exciting because you are watching future NBA level players while they are developing in college. Unless it is an Indiana HS player that i have watched in HS, I am probably not tuning in to watch a Patriot League game on Satellite. However I watched Zion, Barnett, Reddish and Duke and Kyle Guy and Virginia a lot during the season along with B1G games. I plan on watching Cole Anthony next year at North Carolina for the same reason. It may be watchable, certainly not as exciting, and lower level talent. Right now the NBA is more enjoyable to watch than college basketball, just like the NFL is better to watch than college football, MLB is better than college baseball, NHL is better than college hockey.

To each his own, but I do recommend the book.

 

[ufo33]

To each his own, but I do recommend the book.

I'll have to read the book.
Thanks!
I love all levels of basketball.
But i enjoy watching high level talent.

 

[fpeaugh]

The G-League could transform into a true NBA Minor League for the top 30+ HS players every year, to bypass college altogether. The push is to have NBA talent kids never play for a true scholastic HS or College basketball team, only those controlled by shoe companies, handlers, and NBA agents. Elite AAU, National Prep School, G-League, NBA. There is a possibility that in the future only the late bloomers, late developers, and diamonds in the rough will play college basketball. It could become the least watchable brand of college basketball ever. We will see. If G-League does not transform then the impact of a one and done rule change will be minimal. The push is for a transformative change away from college basketball to a direct pipeline to the NBA that does not include traditional HS and College teams.

That’s true. And that would be a disaster for college BB. But the one and done rule itself has had a very minimal impact on college BB so far. Only impacts 5 or so players per year max.

 

[minneman]

That’s true. And that would be a disaster for college BB. But the one and done rule itself has had a very minimal impact on college BB so far. Only impacts 5 or so players per year max.

For one who so often loves to talk about "statistics" you seem to have none of them yourself, nor even much of an understanding of them. Here are some stats from the links above by @All4You . They're just counting so I thought you might be able to do that yourself but I guess not.

Draft Number of freshmen drafted
2018 17
2017 18
2016 15

All of those are significantly higher than the "5 or so players per year max" you claim. Once again, you're not only wrong but also completely FOS by just making up numbers.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

For one who so often loves to talk about "statistics" you seem to have none of them yourself, nor even much of an understanding of them. Here are some stats from the links above by @All4You . They're just counting so I thought you might be able to do that yourself but I guess not.

Draft Number of freshmen drafted
2018 17
2017 18
2016 15

All of those are significantly higher than the "5 or so players per year max" you claim. Once again, you're not only wrong but also completely FOS by just making up numbers.

I remember when feepaw at least tried to hide his bullcrap. Now, he just walks around carrying it out in front of him in both hands.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Is it possible for a player to be a program guy and want a large shoe sponsorship? Or are the more talented players shitty, transient mercenaries by nature?

 

[Hoosier_Phenom]

Thats some crazy talk...
Lets get really good by avoiding the really good players!

Its kind of like saying saying - ‘I dont want to date any hot girls...I only want to date fat and or ugly chicks...’

...bith scenarios acting like its a decision that was arrived to consciously and by choice...

Yeah because you’re not a really good player if you’re not a five star recruit. It just means you have things in your game to work on.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I enjoy watching NAIA basketball in Indiana as many of the top teams in the nation are from Indiana. D1 College Basketball has always been exciting because you are watching future NBA level players while they are developing in college. Unless it is an Indiana HS player that i have watched in HS, I am probably not tuning in to watch a Patriot League game on Satellite. However I watched Zion, Barnett, Reddish and Duke and Kyle Guy and Virginia a lot during the season along with B1G games. I plan on watching Cole Anthony next year at North Carolina for the same reason. It may be watchable, certainly not as exciting, and lower level talent. Right now the NBA is more enjoyable to watch than college basketball, just like the NFL is better to watch than college football, MLB is better than college baseball, NHL is better than college hockey.

No it's not, no it's not, and no it's not. I have no opinion on the NHL v. college hockey.

You need to get your lips off the asses of the prima donnas.

 

[82hoosier]

Division one basketball really has not been rewarded for changing it rules to be more like the NBA. I wouldn’t mind going back to a longer shot clock. Hell, I don’t need even know if I would miss the dunk if they took that away. But I do miss seeing teams that are led by seniors. And I miss watching players develop.

It is ironic that so many people on this board are freaked out about last year’s freshman class. I think people forget the players develop because we hardly ever see them get to that point anymore.