Russia-Ukraine war has begun
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
- Start date
I don't really blame Zelensky for not firing some people in the middle of a war. But the rest sounds like hearsay.
Zelensky had his chance to bug out early and cash in. He didn't. He stayed at great personal danger to his, and his family's, life.
Why do you (we?) expect so little of the Ukrainians? Zelensky will be back at the trough soon enough.
Churchill held elections and fired many people during WW2. Elections that led to his own defeat.
Could you imagine if Israelis were taking using military aid for self enrichment?
Enough with these kleptocrats and their unwinnable war.
That sounds like Russian propaganda.
I can believe that there's Ukrainian corruption and I can can believe some are ripping off US aid. And he has gotten rid of people for corruption.
I don't believe Zelensky is personally profiting from it - his background doesn't indicate he's a money grubbing dirtbag.
Agreed. There's probably quite a bit of corruption. And Zelenskyy might not be squeaky clean. Remember he showed up in the Pandora Papers. But this sounds like a severe twisting of a story we already knew about. Burns did fly to Ukraine last year, and Ukraine did respond to his trip with a crackdown on corruption. That's true. But Zelenskyy being one of the main actors in the corruption? Hard to believe.
NB: you can't tell from the tweet, but it looks like he's reporting on some Seymour Hersh reporting, so "Russian propaganda" probably wasn't far off.
What are some other examples of Seymour Hersh repeating Russian propaganda?
When he said Russia didn’t blow up their own pipeline?
"In 2013, Hersh's reporting alleged that Syrian rebel forces, rather than the government, had attacked civilians with sarin gas at Ghouta during the Syrian Civil War, and in 2015, he presented an alternative account of the U.S. special forces raid in Pakistan which killed Osama bin Laden, both times attracting controversy and criticism. In 2023,"
Seymour Hersh - Wikipedia
He did good work uncovering the My Lai massacre.
It’s pretty well known at this point that “Assad’s use of Sarin gas” was a false flag operation meant to try and diminish his support."In 2013, Hersh's reporting alleged that Syrian rebel forces, rather than the government, had attacked civilians with sarin gas at Ghouta during the Syrian Civil War, and in 2015, he presented an alternative account of the U.S. special forces raid in Pakistan which killed Osama bin Laden, both times attracting controversy and criticism. In 2023,"
Seymour Hersh - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
He did good work uncovering the My Lai massacre.
Well known by Russian propagandists.
I don’t recall anyone claiming Russia blew up their own pipeline. That makes no sense. The Ukrainians almost certainly did it.
Also a Hersh has gotten it wrong several times in recent years. He’s conspiratorially minded left winger who has found new fans among our conspiratorially minded pro-Russia wingnuts. He’s getting really old too. He’s older than the two ancients we have running for President.
So we allowed the Ukrainians to perform an act of eco-terrorism on a sovereign nations infrastructure?
At the very beginning a lot of people were suggesting it made sense for Russia to be behind it, including here (and me). Obviously, that appears very unlikely now, and we can mostly all agree it was almost certainly Ukraine or Ukraine-affiliated actors.
From the linked article from The Washington Post:
On Sept. 26, three underwater explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, leaving only one of the four gas links in the network intact. Some Biden administration officials initially suggested that Russia was to blame for what President Biden called “a deliberate act of sabotage,” promising that the United States would work with its allies “to get to the bottom of exactly what ... happened.” With winter approaching, it appeared the Kremlin might have intended to strangle the flow of energy, an act of “blackmail,” some leaders said, designed to intimidate Europeancountries into withdrawing their financial and military support for Ukraine, and refraining from further sanctions.
Zelensky, in private, pushed for bold attacks inside Russia, leak shows
Biden administration officials now privately concede there is no evidence that conclusively points to Moscow’s involvement. But publicly they have deflected questions about who might beresponsible. European officials in several countries have quietly suggested that Ukraine was behind the attack but have resisted publicly saying so over fears that blaming Kyiv could fracture the alliance against Russia. At gatherings of European and NATO policymakers, officials have settled into a rhythm; as one senior European diplomat said recently, “Don’t talk about Nord Stream.”
Russia invaded Ukraine. Remember that? Ukraine doesn’t ask our permission for all they’re doing to defend themselves. Frankly, your question is very strange.
I suspected the Ukrainians immediately. What would Russia gain from it?
A threat against Europe. "See what we're capable of and willing to do if you give Ukraine support? Do you really want Germany and France and Poland to freeze to death this winter?" It seemed to align right along Putin's mobster mentality.
The Ukrainians would not be able to complete such an operation without us being complicit. I thought we were helping them defend their country, not attack Russian, non-,military infrastructure.
He’d prefer the money like other mobsters. This is why Ukraine was the logical actor in this case.
So Russia scrupulously avoids Ukrainian non-military infrastructure?
How can you doubt their capabilities given how they’ve proven to be very capable in this war?
Capable of being trained by U.S. forces and using U.S. weapons? I suppose in that respect they are superior to the Afghani army.
Clearly superior to the Afghan Army. Most Afghans are illiterate and poorly educated. They couldn’t maintain and operate our more sophisticated weapons systems. Ukrainians can.
What is your preferred end state of this war? Total expulsion of Russian troops from all Ukranian territory? Indefinite funding of Ukraine until every last military aged male is dead?
Or a ceasefire that freezes the lines of control at the roughly the place they are now?
Because the last one is the only realistic option and it won’t happen until we start pressuring Zelensky to negotiate.
Negotiations can’t happen while Russia has the advantage. Once the just approved weapons and munitions arrive and get deployed and the situation switches to a temporary advantage for Ukraine and eventual stalemate, it’s time to negotiate. Preferred is Russia entirely out of Ukraine, but best likely is the pre-invasion lines and areas of control.
So you think Russia takes the lines exactly as they are? Why hasn't Putin sat down to that? He says he is willing to negotiate, has he made an offer? Would you give up 25% of the US to a foreign invader to make peace?
I believe Ukraine will have to accept some loss. Because Russia has grabbed all the mineral wealth, I'm not sure the current line allows Ukraine to survive going forward. But beyond that, we know Russia took Crimea and waited a few years to rebuild then took this. What assurance do you know that in 5 years they aren't going to go for more? Russia will be able to rebuild its military far faster in peace than a much smaller Ukraine. I suspect getting America to help Ukraine rebuild its military and its infrastructure will be impossible once peace is there. I don't see the people who oppose aiding Ukraine suddenly wanting to help Ukraine build a defense capable of keeping Russia from coming again.
I am not sure the West should ever loosen its sanctions on Russia, at least not until Putin dies a horrible gravy-sucking death. I think the territory Russia gets in a peace treaty should require Russian money for Ukraine to build fortifications to help defend the next attack. The more territory they want, the more they have to fork over.
We’ve seized about $300 billion in Russian assets. I think transferring a lot of that to Ukraine for reconstruction and their military is fair. It’s also leverage that could be used in peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine with US involvement.
I can guarantee Ukraine won't, for the next 50 yrs, until the orcs go home. With the elementary level drone tech that they have already been using.... $1,200 drone and RPG head, decommissioning a $1 million T90... (estimated $ of course), is a REALLY good negotiation leverage point. Obviously Ukraine is in pain... but Russia has lost over 10,000 tanks, 14,000 APV and 462,000 personnel (averaging 900ish per day).
I don't think the war of attrition is work quite like the planned.
This could actually be a REALLY advantageous time for this US aid package.
Negotiations are meaningless until Russia suffers regime change. We need to prop Ukraine up until Russia's government collapses and is replaced by something radically different.
I doubt regime change happens while Vlad the Impaler lives, and the candidates to replace him look at least as bad.
The Russian peasant seems quite willing to endure anything.
Ukraine uses long-range ATACMS against Russia for the first time
The U.S. provided Ukraine with the powerful ballistic missiles this month but did not reveal it publicly for operational security reasons, a National Security Council spokesperson said.
www.nbcnews.com
**** yeah! More dead people.Ukraine uses long-range ATACMS against Russia for the first time
The U.S. provided Ukraine with the powerful ballistic missiles this month but did not reveal it publicly for operational security reasons, a National Security Council spokesperson said.
Yes, people die in wars. This war was started by Russia. You want all the dead people to be Ukrainians?
Radically different could mean radically worse as well. The Germans traded the Romanovs for Lenin and eventually Stalin. That looks like a pretty shitty trade in hindsight.
From what I see, Putin's likely replacements are as bad or worse options at the moment.