Yeah, I get tired of the PC crap too, but yes, there are some things like this that should have never been allowed to happen and correcting them is a good and right thing. There is a line that gets crossed often, but correcting things like child abuse, racial and gender inequalities, etc... are all good and proper things and if you long for the "old days" on issues like that, the problem is you, not the changes.
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Yeah, I get tired of the PC crap too, but yes, there are some things like this that should have never been allowed to happen and correcting them is a good and right thing. There is a line that gets crossed often, but correcting things like child abuse, racial and gender inequalities, etc... are all good and proper things and if you long for the "old days" on issues like that, the problem is you, not the changes.
Well, it seems, different people have different opinions on the facts. Imagine that.
I have a slightly different take on RMK and how it went down. Of course, RMK's teams were incredible on the court. Graduating in '77 and seeing people walking on cars in front of Nick's and people getting soaked in Showalter Fountain was crazy. Teams refused to lose. All hail man to man defense and the motion offense, etc. Kudos to Coach Knight.
But times do change. And as a head coach, he represented the Indiana University, the State of Indiana, and was the face of the NCAA in college basketball. As the image of being a teacher at Indiana, one may not do certain things. He did them anyway.
One cannot let themselves get into situations that reflect badly on those institutions. Physical abuse of students is against all norms of society. And bad public relations, whether it is true or not can and does bring people down. A savvy person avoids sticking one's head in the guillotine. RMK led with his face in fights he should have avoided. Like certain politicians, that shows a flaw that could have been better managed. (Envision RMK going to sensitivity training...)
Many parties are at fault. Especially those that botched any corrective counseling, those that set RMK up, those around him that told him that he walked on water, and RMK himself.
OK, now cue the "I hate snowflakes and their politically correct positions...". The lack of empathy for others is the main reason that we are in a world of hurt for our human condition today.
full disclosure....pretty sure I put a goose egg up in the 'assist' column that night. Figured my friends watched in silence as I was decapitated by our coach..screw you guys, I get the ball, I'm taking it to the hole.
I'm certainly not advocating abuse of young kids/athletes. Like I said, I played the 3 glamour sports (Fbal, basketball, baseball) when I was young, and have coached my kids in all 3 as a parent. It has been, at times, difficult to flush out the old school, hard ass approach which really doesn't work today, while trying to explain to kids that there are no participation trophies waiting for them when they become adults.
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So to summarize in your eyes: Bob Knight was never at fault and if you thought he was, you were "thin-skinned"? I totally think he was setup by the Harvey kid and his Dad. The Wilkerson headbutt I have no doubt was intentional to send a message, and also no doubt that RMK would deny it was intentional. It was part and parcel of that "intense teaching moment". RMK is a great man and great Coach and what transpired at IU sucked, but he had a lot to do with it and took his eye off the ball those last several years, not that he just "one bad recruiting class" and was surrounded by the "thin-skinned". Didn't even sniff a B10 championship after 95 and that's when Keady really evened up his record vs RMK. Both are indicators this was bigger than a bad class or 2, as was the way we quietly exited the tourney during those years.
It may be hard to do it, but I don't think it's that hard to know what should be done. And I guess it depends on what level you coached. If you're talking rec ball then to me you're teaching and it's very hands off, if you coached your kids for their school, where not everyone makes the team and not everyone has to play, then yeah I'd agree it gets harder to not let your emotions run over and to balance teaching the kids it means something.
Didn't Hulls hurt his shoulder at the end of the season? He played, but I remember him not shooting the ball and taking away a shooter from the offense.
a. Harvey incident a set up---yeah I often wondered about that. RMK should have known Brand was ready to fire him the next time he farted in public.
b. WIlkerson head butt- it was an ugly incident, he'd probably be placed in concussion protocol today. Accident or not, what bothered me was how coach Knight played it like it was nothing, like it never really happened. LIke it was just part of playing for him at IU.
c. The last 4-5 seasons all looked similar- teams that looked like they were counting the days until the season was over. And yearly defections of players who weren't scrubs, but the stars of the team. All signs of a program that was slipping away from blue blood status.
What? My 8th grade coach also fired a basketball right at kids when they didnt pay attention and listen to him, or when they took a cheap shot at another player, or him when he was playing in practice out on the court. It was no big deal, kids paid attention, and got the message. Yes kids and parents are both too sensitive and soft today, and it is NOT a good thing. Sorry.
Derp.
Firing a ball at a kids head and causing him to fall to the ground and see stars?
Yep, nothing wrong with that.
Whether or not kids and parents today are too soft is completely unrelated to assault to a minor.
Good call. I honestly didn’t remember Hulls’ shoulder injury but did look it up on Google. He apparently hurt it in the Temple game. Not sure to what extent it impacted his shooting from that point forward. I’m sure it didn’t help.
Doesn't matter. Crean never tried to shoot over the zone, so Hulls' shoulder wasn't a factor. Crean had them driving the lane and allowed the SU defense to collapse on the ball handler, no matter who that was, including Cody. They didn't make the baskets and didn't draw the fouls, but no matter -- Crean stuck with his game plan.
I think it was that one particular class that got the snowball rolling, so to speak in winter terms. I take Knight at his word that the headbutt was accidental. How many people do you know give headbutts as attention getters. Arm grabs, chair throws, kicks, profanity-laced vocabulary...those things I get, but not head-butts as teaching moments, no. Head-butts hurt both parties. Bob has been called a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them. My "thin-skinned" comment comes from thinking how kids are today, in general, vs. how they were way back then. I don't know if it's the result of a pampering thing by the parents or just what, but the world is much different today. Everyone's on edge, it seems, looking over their shoulders to see if an attorney's jotting down notes.
yep Jordy was injured, and we had two short guard who would have to shoot over their long wing defenders but the plan was to feed Cody at the line and have him lower his shoulder and drive into no-mans land. The results speak for themselves. Crean had no Plan B. Never seen a #1 seed look so overmatched in a S16 game.
I'll say it again, Knight never changed, but those around him did. He remained true to his beliefs, so much so that it angered him when he detected what he perceived as a weakness in principles being exhibited by those around him and throughout our society, in general. Imagine what Bob Knight thought when he saw and heard the CA elected official on national TV yell out to her constituents immediately following the 2016 the election, "We're going tis impeach the Mother F-er!" Sadly, that's where we are today and it's not a particularly good look for us. I miss the old days-it's gotten ugly.
Well, and I hope you don't take this wrong, but you probably can't take it any other way, I'd say you're a Knight apologist. We're discussing the decline of his coaching and our program, in what were the most miserable years of his career, and I've yet to see you say 1 thing you think he did wrong. I think you'd take him at his word for anything he said. Knight's a bully and he's always used intimidation to get his way. Coming in head first was his way of getting Sherron's attention so he understood the message and gravity of it. I say this as someone who had/has a temper and have headbutted someone when I was pissed to get their attention. It says, "I care more and I'm tougher than you and that's part of the problem...". I have as much doubt that he intended that headbutt, as I do that I'll get wet if I walk out in the nasty rainstorm we are having... maybe less. I'm not arguing if it was smart, I'm saying it was intentional. If you disagree, well, see sentence #1, imo.
Read the following names (please):
Mandeville
Hart
Wilkerson
Eggers
Patterson
Miller
Reed
Hermon
Hodgson
That’s the list of players from IU’s 1993 and 1994 classes. How many of those players had careers at IU commensurate with their bona fides when they entered IU?
Zero.
Can’t recover quickly from that, at least not to the level IU and RMK previously enjoyed with B1G championships and F4’s/NatiChampis. Missing on every player from two consecutive classes is staggering for a program like RMK had built at IU.
It came back to (as it always does in college sports) recruiting. RMK nearly left IU in 1981 to go into TV as CBS’s lead analyst (but didn’t when Landon was injured), and it was because of his distaste for recruiting. When those two classes came through, he had turned the recruiting over to Dak and Felling, and they either didn’t dig deep enough into those players and their personalities, or they didn’t care, because it was pretty apparent early on with every one of those guys that their personalities did not mesh well - at ALL - with RMK.
Collier and Recker fall into that group, too. Just a bad fit for all involved. Which is why, when guys like Fife and Moye committed to RMK and IU, I was pumped. You need tough SOB’s to deal with a tough SOB, and those guys would’ve dealt with RMK and been the buffer between RMK and the rest of the players that IU’s best teams had (Buckner, Isiah, Alford, Cheaney).
It would’ve been great to see him coach those guys, along with Haston and JJ and the rest of the 2000-01 team. But you had a power-hungry career administrator decide he was gonna be the biggest bear to crap in the (IU) woods.
And IU basketball is STILL paying for that decision 20 years later.
And? I don't even understand what we're arguing. Yes, those players were the problem and I think so highly of RMK as a Coach, that it's obvious he took his eye off the ball at that time, but that was HIS responsibility as Head Coach. Even if you want to blame assistants, do you really think Bob just walked in to their offices at the end of the season and said "so, who do we have coming in next year?" They were recruiting who he wanted them to recruit and if they weren't, that's his responsibility too. Is it possible I think he's a better Coach than you and Abraxis do? No, probably not. So can't we agree he was responsible for a big part of his demise at IU?
you left two guys off that list of tough guy/buffer players-- Kitchel and Whittman. Kitch may have been the toughest nut of them all. Every bit as hard headed as RMK.
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anyone see that video of Isiah giving that public speech with RMK behind him, trying to be funny and describing all the swearing during RMK coaching, and RMK creating a new swear word? ("SUNT" ? I think that was it) . RMK looking like he was going to shoot Isiah in the back of the head...funny stuff. Cringe worthy for sure but hilarious.
Go to youtube, search "Isiah Thomas Bob Knight Sunt"...first video that comes up. I still cringe (as does much of the crowd) when you get to the 1:35 mark in the video.
Go to youtube, search "Isiah Thomas Bob Knight Sunt"...first video that comes up. I still cringe (as does much of the crowd) when you get to the 1:35 mark in the video.
I was gonna add those two, bit that was Isiah’s team.
There are obviously other guys from other teams, but the guys I listed represent the gist of my point.
I remember him initially taking a hit in a game with Purdue. It could have been the last game we played them in the regular season or possible the BTT. I believe the Temple game aggravated it.
I remember it because we lost VJIII in the BTT the year before at a time he was playing the best of his career.
The only argument we’re having is that I do think the mid-90s “slump” was the very specific product of two bad classes and nine players (NINE PLAYERS!!!) falling short of what was their expected output whilst at IU.
We do agree that was RMK’s fault, specifically that he didn’t vet thoroughly enough the guys Dak and Felling tee’d up in those two classes for their fit with HIM. That’s 100% on him.
PS: you failed to mention that “when Keady really evened up his record vs RMK” in the mid-90’s, he was also violating NCAA rules in a pretty significant way .....
https://www.nwitimes.com/uncategori...cle_e252c996-8122-521a-86dc-6e3656f112b2.html
I did not say fire a basketball at a kid's head. I said, when a player took a cheap shot at another player's groin or a sharp elbow to the face or head, coach would retaliate with a ball throw at the perpetrator to get their attention, or if they refused to acknowledge coach when he was talking to them. It was definitely not assault on a minor, far from it. It was coaching, it was a firm reminder to listen when authority is speaking.
Correct...the results of the 2016 election were not a good look for us.
That is the conduct being discussed. If you aren’t going to pay attention to the details then just don’t respond.
Again, my comments were in response to a coach firing a “fastball” to an 8th grader’s head which knocked him down to his knees.
Not this again...
Real coaches don't have to throw basketballs at their players to get their attention...just the worthless ones who the players don't respect.
Wow. He was a former NFL player who was respected by the community. One of the kindest men I ever knew.Not this again...
Real coaches don't have to throw basketballs at their players to get their attention...just the worthless ones who the players don't respect.
I remember a few times that Cody came up to the free throw line and Hulls couldn't get the ball to him as Syracuse played the passing lanes very well with their length out on the top of the defense. We needed to move the ball and find the seams in the zone to make the pass or penetrate the zone and find the open man. We didn't attack the zone and we couldn't pass over, around, or through it.
I became fascinated with big guards or guards with wide wing spans when I saw a 6'-8" PG in a high school game. That kid went on to UK, but I remember how hard the opposition guard had throwing the ball around that length out top. That player took the PG out of running the offense and disrupted their halfcourt offense.
Why is it so hard for you guys to admit RMK wasn't the same Coach? He was unhappy, and he got the big head and thought he was bigger than the program. You said he was tired of recruiting. I'd add it felt like he was just tired period. But, Keady cheating had little to do with us becoming a 2nd tier B10 team and not sniffing a conference championship and nothing to do with the disinterested way we played once we got to the tournament(s) (B10 too once it was present). Knight is/was a great Coach, but he was not giving it his all in those last several years and it was responsible for the record, and as someone else said, that made him more vulnerable. Is that so hard?
I honestly just want to forget about that entire team, entire year in history at IU.
02' was atleast fun.
There wasnt anything exciting to remember from 2013
Did I not say the failure of the two classes was 100% his fault for not thoroughly vetting the players that were recruited?
Why is it so hard for “you guys” to read?
He didn’t “get the big head” in the 90’s, he had the big head literally from the day he started at IU in 1971 - look up stuff from his earliest press conferences.
You brought up Keady and his record against RMK and how it improved significantly in the 90’s, I just supplied some context.
Im not sure you would be saying this had Knight won us that championship in 02'.
Or at the very least to the level youre making it out to be...
Also zeller never went behind the zone. Always in front of it. Syracuse always played further out in front of the baseline. Michigan ate them up in that area.
Right, he used pro style sets. He did though run M2M on defense.
Right, he had Victor there instead.. not only making Zeller ineffective, but his other AA as well.
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