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Roy Moore done fo(u)r?

Roy Moore isn't the problem. The problem is the deep rot at the core of the Republican base:

It’s worth stepping back for a moment, and remembering that Roy Moore was unambiguously unfit for office even before Thursday’s revelations. The man believes that his interpretation of the Bible supersedes Supreme Court rulings — and repeatedly used his power as an elected official to undermine the rule of law. He has argued that Muslims should not be allowed to serve in Congress; that there are Christian communities in Illinois that have been forcibly subjected to the rule of Sharia law; and that consensual sex between adult men should be a prosecutable offense.

The GOP’s refusal to disown Roy Moore’s candidacy was a scandal when this week started. Republicans were already asking Alabama voters to elect a lawless, delusionally bigoted theocrat to the Senate. Now, they’re asking them to elect one who is also probably a child molester — on the grounds that there is no documentary evidence of his predations, and, anyway, corporations really need a tax cut.​
Neither Moore nor Trump is the The Problem, but they're both whale-sized problems.

As for The Problem, you're highlighting a problem you have no control over. What Democrats can control is the reflection of the problem and that reflection is that Democrats fail to offer an alternative acceptable to whomever they want to flip. How absurd is it that Democrats fail to beat a Trump and now possibly a Moore? It's roughly equivalent to failing to correctly add one plus one repeatedly and again.
 
Neither Moore nor Trump is the The Problem, but they're both whale-sized problems.

As for The Problem, you're highlighting a problem you have no control over. What Democrats can control is the reflection of the problem and that reflection is that Democrats fail to offer an alternative acceptable to whomever they want to flip. How absurd is it that Democrats fail to beat a Trump and now possibly a Moore? It's roughly equivalent to failing to correctly add one plus one repeatedly and again.
Alabama Republicans picked the looniest and most obviously unfit candidate, just as Republicans did nationally with Trump. That's the problem, and it has no equivalent on the left.
 
Alabama Republicans picked the looniest and most obviously unfit candidate, just as Republicans did nationally with Trump. That's the problem, and it has no equivalent on the left.
You're absolutely right, the Republicans' problem is not the Democrats' problem. The Democrat's have a problem uniquely their own.

All politics are local. It can make sense that the Democratic candidate for POTUS loses by a large percentage in Alabama but it doesn't make sense that the Democratic candidate for an Alabama office loses by the same margin. It's just a question of picking local candidates, and by local I obviously mean candidates who represent the leftward 50% (approximately) of the people of Alabama or whatever the appropriate locale is. Nothing else is rational.

If the Democratic Party routinely fielded local candidates, then when the Republicans managed to field a blitherpate, there'd be no doubt about who would win. That's the DNP problem and it's the only one (of the two problems) Democrats have any control over.
 
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You're absolutely right, the Republicans' problem is not the Democrats' problem. The Democrat's have a problem uniquely their own.

All politics are local. It can make sense that the Democratic candidate for POTUS loses by a large percentage in Alabama but it doesn't make sense that the Democratic candidate for an Alabama office loses by the same margin. It's just a question of picking local candidates, and by local I obviously mean candidates who represent the leftward 50% (approximately) of the people of Alabama or whatever the appropriate locale is. Nothing else is rational.

If the Democratic Party routinely fielded local candidates, then when the Republicans managed to field a blitherpate, there'd be no doubt about who would win. That's the DNP problem and it's the only one (of the two problems) Democrats have any control over.
It does not matter what the local candidate believes, the GOP has people sold that the local Dem is identical in every way to Nancy Pelosi.

Heck if the people of Alabama believe Luther Strange is a left wing commie pinko, there is no way anyone even pretending to be a Democrat can get elected.
 
It does not matter what the local candidate believes, the GOP has people sold that the local Dem is identical in every way to Nancy Pelosi.

Heck if the people of Alabama believe Luther Strange is a left wing commie pinko, there is no way anyone even pretending to be a Democrat can get elected.
Cynical a bit, are we? That's not really true though, that is, you see examples all over the map of Democrats getting elected in red states. That said, even if true your fatalistic position doesn't help anyone so what do the Democrats have to lose by selecting local candidates? If nothing else, think long term. People change.

It's funny, Rock wants concrete suggestions, I give them, then people get all pessimistic and fatalistic. No wonder Democrats play the victim card if that's how their leaders think.
 
Well put. There are several instances of this and our memory seems to be quite short for large-scale events such as the Duke rape case.

After ruining the lives of three Duke LAX members and admitting to false accusations of rape, the crazy woman has been up to some even crazier things:

In February 2010, she was arrested on charges of attempted murder of her live-in partner, Milton Walker.[2] She was eventually convicted of contributing to the delinquency of a juvenile, injury to personal property and resisting a public officer.[3]

In November 2013, she was found guilty of second-degree murder after she repeatedly stabbed boyfriend Reginald Daye, who died 10 days after she attacked him.[4] She was sentenced to 14 to 18 years in prison.[5]
I agree false accusations can ruin some people's lives, but I'd be surprised if the Duke's players lives were impacted much. I may see if I can figure out what they are doing now. But my guess. Is they came from good families that supported them and they went on to high powered positions. I'm sure it affected them, but doubtful it ruined their lives.
 
Cynical a bit, are we? That's not really true though, that is, you see examples all over the map of Democrats getting elected in red states. That said, even if true your fatalistic position doesn't help anyone so what do the Democrats have to lose by selecting local candidates? If nothing else, think long term. People change.

It's funny, Rock wants concrete suggestions, I give them, then people get all pessimistic and fatalistic. No wonder Democrats play the victim card if that's how their leaders think.
The Dem in Alabama was down to a crazy guy by 8 points or so. Down to a Republican so crazy two of our posters that voted Trump said they could not vote for. I assume the Democratic candidate lives in Alabama and not San Francisco, making him local by definition. I do not know what else to say about the situation.
 
The Dem in Alabama was down to a crazy guy by 8 points or so. Down to a Republican so crazy two of our posters that voted Trump said they could not vote for. I assume the Democratic candidate lives in Alabama and not San Francisco, making him local by definition. I do not know what else to say about the situation.
Wrong definition of local. See above. If you're a reasonably qualified candidate, being down 8 points to any candidate means you're not local enough.

Democrats seem to want all of their candidates to follow some sort of national party line. As in, if you're not in favor of abortion, you're not a Democrat. That fits under the rubric of all politics are national. Recipe for failure.
 
It does not matter what the local candidate believes, the GOP has people sold that the local Dem is identical in every way to Nancy Pelosi.

Heck if the people of Alabama believe Luther Strange is a left wing commie pinko, there is no way anyone even pretending to be a Democrat can get elected.
Fighting the nationalizing of the parties is key for the Dems this cycle. They are paying lip service to Big Tent-ism. They need to follow through. Not letting voters confuse Joe Manchin with Nancy Pelosi is central to Dem success in 2018.
 
Does he have to inbred?
:p I think you're mixing up Alabama with Kentucky. Anyway, Lucy's evidently our resident expert on that.

I like your metaphor, though, because that is kind of what Deemocrats are supposed to be. All inbred from NY or CA. Thanks for the notion.
 
Wrong definition of local. See above. If you're a reasonably qualified candidate, being down 8 points to any candidate means you're not local enough.

Democrats seem to want all of their candidates to follow some sort of national party line. As in, if you're not in favor of abortion, you're not a Democrat. That fits under the rubric of all politics are national. Recipe for failure.
Jones won a primary with 7 candidates by capturing over 60% of the vote. In the polls he was down 8 by, he led Moore by 40% with independents. How much more local could he be? It is probably not realistic to nominate a Democrat who will vote 85% with Trump. But given the sheer number of Republicans in Alabama that appears to be what it would take.
 
Jones won a primary with 7 candidates by capturing over 60% of the vote. In the polls he was down 8 by, he led Moore by 40% with independents. How much more local could he be? It is probably not realistic to nominate a Democrat who will vote 85% with Trump. But given the sheer number of Republicans in Alabama that appears to be what it would take.
/insert necessary caveats about reading too much into one poll

First poll after the scandal has the race tied.
 
Jones won a primary with 7 candidates by capturing over 60% of the vote. In the polls he was down 8 by, he led Moore by 40% with independents. How much more local could he be? It is probably not realistic to nominate a Democrat who will vote 85% with Trump. But given the sheer number of Republicans in Alabama that appears to be what it would take.
Time will tell as far as this particular race goes.

Nothing big's going to change overnight, but if the primary (edit: main) message is economic and it's a powerful enough message, that is, backed up by reality and successes, then less important messages will gradually lose their effectiveness. In other words, it's not about agreeing 85% with Trump on all issues but agreeing with 50% of the Alabamans on economic issues.
 
Bannon and others have said they need more proof. 30 sources, other women saying he's done the same, after 30 years, what kind of proof could there be?
  1. Hidden camera recording?
  2. If the guy is a catholic, the recording of his confession to a priest might do, but then the priest may be disrobed for releasing the confession.
  3. Confession to Sean Hannity?
;)
 
I agree false accusations can ruin some people's lives, but I'd be surprised if the Duke's players lives were impacted much. I may see if I can figure out what they are doing now. But my guess. Is they came from good families that supported them and they went on to high powered positions. I'm sure it affected them, but doubtful it ruined their lives.

I'd be curious to hear about what they are doing. Would you have hired them, assuming they were qualified professionally or academically?
 
I agree false accusations can ruin some people's lives, but I'd be surprised if the Duke's players lives were impacted much. I may see if I can figure out what they are doing now. But my guess. Is they came from good families that supported them and they went on to high powered positions. I'm sure it affected them, but doubtful it ruined their lives.

I'd be curious to hear about what they are doing. Would you have hired them, assuming they were qualified professionally or academically?
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/03/where-are-they-now

I'd probably hire them.
 
I agree false accusations can ruin some people's lives, but I'd be surprised if the Duke's players lives were impacted much. I may see if I can figure out what they are doing now. But my guess. Is they came from good families that supported them and they went on to high powered positions. I'm sure it affected them, but doubtful it ruined their lives.
I think a lot of that depends on the type of allegations. And like I pointed out earlier I felt Moore unfit for any office prior to these allegations. Truth or not the idiot should step down or be forced to do so if there is any way of doing this.

Having said that false allegations of this nature and especially involving sexual abuse, harassment etc can and does ruin peoples lives or at the very list has a dramatic negative impact on them. The man I referenced earlier ended up divorced and shunned by his community and even long time friends even though the young girl admitted her charges were false and made up. He moved to get away from it all and more than once. People with small minds refused to consider the truth and some thought the girl was forced to change her story. Crap like that.
 
I think a lot of that depends on the type of allegations. And like I pointed out earlier I felt Moore unfit for any office prior to these allegations. Truth or not the idiot should step down or be forced to do so if there is any way of doing this.

Having said that false allegations of this nature and especially involving sexual abuse, harassment etc can and does ruin peoples lives or at the very list has a dramatic negative impact on them. The man I referenced earlier ended up divorced and shunned by his community and even long time friends even though the young girl admitted her charges were false and made up. He moved to get away from it all and more than once. People with small minds refused to consider the truth and some thought the girl was forced to change her story. Crap like that.
Do you think that’s what’s going on here — that these women who’d never met coincidentally concocted the same lies about Moore, then persuaded people from their pasts to say they’d talked about it long ago? If so, why do you think that? If not, why are you posting about false accusations?
 
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Although it's been adequately pointed out, it's worth repeating over and over and highlighting again and again until people get it. The deeper problem here isn't that some men are terrible, awful people. The deeper problem is that Republican tribalism has gotten to the point that whether or not someone is a terrible, awful person is irrelevant if they are on a ballot with an R next to their name:

 
Although it's been adequately pointed out, it's worth repeating over and over and highlighting again and again until people get it. The deeper problem here isn't that some men are terrible, awful people. The deeper problem is that Republican tribalism has gotten to the point that whether or not someone is a terrible, awful person is irrelevant if they are on a ballot with an R next to their name:

Is this the same David Horowitz that were in bed with Huey Newton and Black Panthers, and now in bed with a pedophile? My, my, times have changed indeed!
 
Neither Moore nor Trump is the The Problem, but they're both whale-sized problems.

As for The Problem, you're highlighting a problem you have no control over. What Democrats can control is the reflection of the problem and that reflection is that Democrats fail to offer an alternative acceptable to whomever they want to flip. How absurd is it that Democrats fail to beat a Trump and now possibly a Moore? It's roughly equivalent to failing to correctly add one plus one repeatedly and again.

Wall Street, the parent company of both the GOP and Dem parties, prefer the GOP win elections.

what Dems need, is to advance candidates that aren't the choice of their parent company owners.
 
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Although it's been adequately pointed out, it's worth repeating over and over and highlighting again and again until people get it. The deeper problem here isn't that some men are terrible, awful people. The deeper problem is that Republican tribalism has gotten to the point that whether or not someone is a terrible, awful person is irrelevant if they are on a ballot with an R next to their name:

Tribalism is just a pejorative term for ideology-based politics. Tribalism is to civilization as ideology is to science. Bitching about Them doesn't change anything. If you're asserting their game is tribalism, then stop playing Tribe versus Tribe. If you're offering the same ideology as yesterday, then you're just promulgating your tribe (which you claim is civilized). Change the game. Stop being a tribe. Stop pushing your ideology. You say you are scientific, roll up your sleeves, do your homework finally, and translate your ideology into science. Then find candidates who are scientific about how to run the country and make people's lives better.

There's a reason why independents are independent. They don't believe in ideology. They're all there for the taking.
 
Tribalism is just a pejorative term for ideology-based politics.
No, it's not. Tribalism is based on social identity, not ideology. Hence the GOP Tribe's willingness to dump long-held moral stances to support "their guys."

Tribalism is to civilization as ideology is to science.
No, it's not. I don't know how many times you have to be told, but the entire universe doesn't reduce down to your stupid ideology fetish.

Blah. Blah. Blah. I think I'm smarter than everyone, but I really don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.
FIFY.
 
No such thing as bad publicity even if you are being accused of being a peado:

"Well I was undecided for a while, but what really swung it was that poetry he read to the young girl, what a sweetheart."
 
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No, it's not. Tribalism is based on social identity, not ideology. Hence the GOP Tribe's willingness to dump long-held moral stances to support "their guys."


No, it's not. I don't know how many times you have to be told, but the entire universe doesn't reduce down to your stupid ideology fetish.


FIFY.
You're exactly right about this. Tribalism is the antithesis of ideology.

The Republican base doesn't care about ideology. Unlike the trickle-down tax-cutting GOP establishment, the base cares about grievances and resentments. Trump and Moore illustrate white identity politics, not ideology.
 
No, it's not. Tribalism is based on social identity, not ideology. Hence the GOP Tribe's willingness to dump long-held moral stances to support "their guys."
Your example above doesn't support the definition of tribalism you claim to be using and it doesn't fit reality either. For Republicans the R has nothing to do with "social identity" but rather political ideology. What's changed for them is that their ideology has dumped long-held moral stances. Thus I say you're using tribalism to describe ideology-based politics.

What you're missing, in your hurry to insult me and dismiss my ideas, is that Democrats have an opportunity here -- they can now claim the moral high ground. In other words, rather than denigrate the people who vote for these Republicans, offer them something you're implying they want.
 
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...Democrats have an opportunity here -- they can now claim the moral high ground. In other words, rather than denigrate the people who vote for these Republicans...
There's a lot of "Clinton" that will need to be shed before that will fly.
 
You're exactly right about this. Tribalism is the antithesis of ideology.

The Republican base doesn't care about ideology. Unlike the trickle-down tax-cutting GOP establishment, the base cares about grievances and resentments. Trump and Moore illustrate white identity politics, not ideology.
If you're going to respond to my thoughts in good faith you need to make an attempt to understand how I'm using my terms. Otherwise you're committing the same act you criticized another for. Here is how I'm using pragmatism and ideology:

[URL='http://wikidiff.com/pragmatism/ideology']As nouns the difference between ideology and pragmatism
is that ideology is doctrine, philosophy, body of beliefs or principles belonging to an individual or group while pragmatism is the pursuit of practicality over aesthetic qualities; a concentration on facts rather than emotions or ideals.

Pragmatism[/URL]: (politics) The theory that political problems should be met with practical solutions rather than ideological ones.
In short, I'm saying what's important in the final analysis is achieving practical goals. An interesting example is the case of Roy Moore. Republicans are sacrificing their moral stance on him for the practical exigency of maintaining their 52 seats in the Senate. That doesn't mean the deep down Mitch McConnell isn't revolted by Moore. He just takes the pragmatic view that what's good for the country in the long run is not letting Democrats control the Senate now. It doesn't mean that McConnell is abandoning his personal beliefs in morals, whatever they might be.

You guys spend too much time being butthurt and not enough time being practical. In the process you've squandered your Congressional dominance from the middle of the 20th century and turned the US map virtually red. You can dismiss my ideas to the end of time but, for all your criticism of Republicans living in a bubble, it appears you're the ones who are really living in some ideological bubble.

Carry on, Maestro. I'm sure you're right.
 
One more thing, Rock, I predict you'll respond with some notion to the effect that you don't believe in sacrificing your values for practicalities. There is nothing more simple minded than to think values have to be sacrificed for practicalities. That's not how life works.
 
There's a lot of "Clinton" that will need to be shed before that will fly.
Well, it has to be real. The bottom line, in my book, is that the first party to adhere to honesty would dominate for eons. So far, a whole lot of chicken shits flying 'round.
 
Well, it has to be real. The bottom line, in my book, is that the first party to adhere to honesty would dominate for eons. So far, a whole lot of chicken shits flying 'round.
Here's some pragmatism for you...

Hold your breath until the Democratic Party decides to shun Bill Clinton and admit that he is/was a lech that brought shame to the office. Until that happens, Dems trying to take the "high moral ground" are going to be standing on quicksand.
 
You're exactly right about this. Tribalism is the antithesis of ideology.

The Republican base doesn't care about ideology. Unlike the trickle-down tax-cutting GOP establishment, the base cares about grievances and resentments. Trump and Moore illustrate white identity politics, not ideology.
Lurker appears to suffer from something that seems to be common among wannabe geniuses - the conceit that his particular theory is not only self-evidently right, but is so important, that it subsumes all other investigation of the world and becomes a Theory of Everything. So much so that when he sees things that are exactly the opposite of ideology, he must find a way to turn them into ideology in order to make sense of them.
 
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