Warning, the OP is lengthy. Please choose to read/respond ( or not) accordingly- I wanted to set the stage for the discussion, and not just post the (offensive) video...
And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...
There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.
More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...
Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?
The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?
I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...
Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?
I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?
I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...
Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.
We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.
Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.
Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...
The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...
There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.
More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...
Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?
The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?
I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...
Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?
I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?
I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...
Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.
We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.
Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.
Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...
The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
Last edited:
