Questions for the WC's "social" Conservatives

cosmickid

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Warning, the OP is lengthy. Please choose to read/respond ( or not) accordingly- I wanted to set the stage for the discussion, and not just post the (offensive) video...

And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...

There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.

More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...

Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?

The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?

I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...

Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?

I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?

I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.

We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.

Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.

Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...

The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
 
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IUXC68

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You must have had some sort of a goal or an abiding agreement on issues when you posted this. How about sharing that/those with us? You put in a lot of effort on this and I think that it deserves consideration.
 

cosmickid

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You must have had some sort of a goal or an abiding agreement on issues when you posted this. How about sharing that/those with us? You put in a lot of effort on this and I think that it deserves consideration.
Did you watch the video yet? I was really just struck by the comments from these "news professionals" just basically undermined any rational claims put forth from seemingly reasonable people arguing for "prayer" in school. I mean these people are basically shameless and unapologetic in their advocacy for a Christian Theocracy.

For example the one clown says she should be "conscripted" and forced to serve in the military as if he's blissfully unaware that there are plenty of Jews, Muslims, and (the horror) gays who have not only fought in the US Military but have sacrificed more than him and maybe even died while doing so. Does he somehow think he is a member of an exclusive group the US (Christian) Military?
 

IUXC68

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Did you watch the video yet? I was really just struck by the comments from these "news professionals" just basically undermined any rational claims put forth from seemingly reasonable people arguing for "prayer" in school. I mean these people are basically shameless and unapologetic in their advocacy for a Christian Theocracy.

For example the one clown says she should be "conscripted" and forced to serve in the military as if he's blissfully unaware that there are plenty of Jews, Muslims, and (the horror) gays who have not only fought in the US Military but have sacrificed more than him and maybe even died while doing so. Does he somehow think he is a member of an exclusive group the US (Christian) Military?
Thank you. To answer your question, I have not yet watched the video but I intend to. Having grown up as an Air Force brat and having served five years of active duty in the Air Force, I have some pretty specific views about military service.
 
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IUCrazy2

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So what is question, like are we responding to their response or are you wanting our opinion on what she did?

If it is the latter, she should have kept the words as they were. I know they say all the time that in the Middle East, Allah is their word for god. Not necessarily a specific god but just god in general. If that is the case, we in the U.S. have our own word for that and it is in the pledge already. For the sake of leading a public recitation, just leave the words as they are. (Full disclosure, I do not believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. People get butt hurt when you get into the theology of it so I will leave that point at that.)

I did not watch the video but I assume that the people in it got animated about it. That's what those 24 hour news networks do. So I guess ermagerd, don't be so animated is probably what you were looking for there.

On school prayer, no, I do not want the school enforcing a specific viewpoint on kids. Most of the schools are run by people that hold views that I am not a fan of. The last thing I want is them wading into teaching religion to kids (although one could argue that there is a New Age Church of the Woke being preached at them, but I digress).
 

jet812

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I think you should spend more time finding extreme right wing idiots o get bent out of shape about, & then write even longer posts about it, maybe even throw in a crappy Bruuuuuuce video. You asked for opinions, there’s mine...
 

Lucy01

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I think you should spend more time finding extreme right wing idiots o get bent out of shape about, & then write even longer posts about it, maybe even throw in a crappy Bruuuuuuce video. You asked for opinions, there’s mine...
His kid is even dumber
 

mcmurtry66

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Without typing it all back out...I questioned where Cosmic grew up. He stated in his post he grew up outside of Indy. I thought he grew up in Tennessee.
It was deleted for being off topic
I see. Cosmic is as nutty as it gets with his obsession with far right crazies. he pulls from sites i'd bet my life 99% of republicans have never even heard of: Republicans R Evil.

I was just curious. Goat as a mod since my time here lets it fly and has been very even-handed with deleting
 

Spartans9312

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I see. Cosmic is as nutty as it gets with his obsession with far right crazies.

I was just curious. Goat as a mod since my time here lets it fly and has been very even-handed with deleting
Yeah I was surprised. Maybe he doesn't want anyone to comment so the thread goes away. Very few will read it and less will listen to the video
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I see. Cosmic is as nutty as it gets with his obsession with far right crazies. he pulls from sites i'd bet my life 99% of republicans have never even heard of: Republicans R Evil.

I was just curious. Goat as a mod since my time here lets it fly and has been very even-handed with deleting
Spartan is lying about what he typed and why it was deleted.

Cosmic put effort into this thread, and I didn't want it derailed before others had a chance to engage him on it, is all.
 
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Mas-sa-suta

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Warning, the OP is lengthy. Please choose to read/respond ( or not) accordingly- I wanted to set the stage for the discussion, and not just post the (offensive) video...

And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...

There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.

More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...

Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?

The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?

I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...

Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?

I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?

I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.

We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.

Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.

Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...

The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
TL:dr
 

cosmickid

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So what is question, like are we responding to their response or are you wanting our opinion on what she did?

If it is the latter, she should have kept the words as they were. I know they say all the time that in the Middle East, Allah is their word for god. Not necessarily a specific god but just god in general. If that is the case, we in the U.S. have our own word for that and it is in the pledge already. For the sake of leading a public recitation, just leave the words as they are. (Full disclosure, I do not believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. People get butt hurt when you get into the theology of it so I will leave that point at that.)

I did not watch the video but I assume that the people in it got animated about it. That's what those 24 hour news networks do. So I guess ermagerd, don't be so animated is probably what you were looking for there.

On school prayer, no, I do not want the school enforcing a specific viewpoint on kids. Most of the schools are run by people that hold views that I am not a fan of. The last thing I want is them wading into teaching religion to kids (although one could argue that there is a New Age Church of the Woke being preached at them, but I digress).
So what is question, like are we responding to their response or are you wanting our opinion on what she did?

If it is the latter, she should have kept the words as they were. I know they say all the time that in the Middle East, Allah is their word for god. Not necessarily a specific god but just god in general. If that is the case, we in the U.S. have our own word for that and it is in the pledge already. For the sake of leading a public recitation, just leave the words as they are. (Full disclosure, I do not believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. People get butt hurt when you get into the theology of it so I will leave that point at that.)

I honestly don't think you deserve to have an opinion on what she did. I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does, and I know you haven't watched the video. But she does NOT appear to be an immigrant, but rather a Black American teenager who apparently practices Islam. As such, I feel, she is just as entitled to use the word she uses/ chooses as anyone else in that audience who might have said GOD (in English).

We are NOT a Christian nation, and Christians being outraged is THEIR problem...Not sure on what "Constitutional" basis the Newsmax commentators fail to grasp this...
 

INRanger27

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(Full disclosure, I do not believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. People get butt hurt when you get into the theology of it so I will leave that point at that.)
I mean you don’t get to decide they don’t worship the same God as Christians - that’s not how life works. It’s certainly the same God and any “opinion” to the contrary is simply just moving goalposts.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I'm not sure I see the value in using a bunch of Newsmax douchebags as a springboard for a conversation about prayer in schools. Feels like a reach to me.
Not to speak for cosmic, but I think the point is that these "Newsmax douchebags" present a very specific and repulsively ignorant view of the debate over America as a secular/inclusive/Christian/exclusive nation, and cosmic seems to be interested in what others who might consider themselves Christian conservatives think about that view.

It seems obvious to most of us that most Christian conservatives on this forum would probably think their view is ridiculous, but the truth is, it's not always that obvious.
 

jet812

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So what is question, like are we responding to their response or are you wanting our opinion on what she did?

If it is the latter, she should have kept the words as they were. I know they say all the time that in the Middle East, Allah is their word for god. Not necessarily a specific god but just god in general. If that is the case, we in the U.S. have our own word for that and it is in the pledge already. For the sake of leading a public recitation, just leave the words as they are. (Full disclosure, I do not believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. People get butt hurt when you get into the theology of it so I will leave that point at that.)

I honestly don't think you deserve to have an opinion on what she did. I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does, and I know you haven't watched the video. But she does NOT appear to be an immigrant, but rather a Black American teenager who apparently practices Islam. As such, I feel, she is just as entitled to use the word she uses/ chooses as anyone else in that audience who might have said GOD (in English).

We are NOT a Christian nation, and Christians being outraged is THEIR problem...Not sure on what "Constitutional" basis the Newsmax commentators fail to grasp this...
Christians still make up as much as 65% of the population, so if they are outraged it is a problem. Of course, you’d rather have p9licy dictated by the other 35% since that suits you better...
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I mean you don’t get to decide they don’t worship the same God as Christians - that’s not how life works. It’s certainly the same God and any “opinion” to the contrary is simply just moving goalposts.
Literally the entire theology of all three religions is built around the fact that it is, actually, the same God. I mean, the term "Abrahamic religions" exists for a reason.
 

INRanger27

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Literally the entire theology of all three religions is built around the fact that it is, actually, the same God. I mean, the term "Abrahamic religions" exists for a reason.
Yeah it’s a mind blowing claim. Like when Dr. Evil said how his dad would make insane claims like he invented the question mark.
 
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cosmickid

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Without typing it all back out...I questioned where Cosmic grew up. He stated in his post he grew up outside of Indy. I thought he grew up in Tennessee.
It was deleted for being off topic
My mom and all her family are from Tennessee, a little place called Portland to be exact.
It is North of Nashville, right on the KY border just down 65 from Bowling Green...

My mom took part in the great migration to Indiana back in the late 40s when people from Ky and TN headed north to Indy for jobs/oppty. I can remember going to church on my summer vacations in TN as a kid, and there would always be announcements relating to who was heading north to Indy to visit kin during the coming week. It seemed like everyone in that town was related to someone who was living in Indiana...

I grew up in a rock-ribbed Republican household, and my Dad was a Marine DI in Hawaii during WW2. He enlisted right out of high school (Ben Davis) after growing up off Washington St in the area by the Indy Airport. We moved to Farley addition (area bordered by 10th and Girl School Rd) in 1956 when I was a year old, and it was the epitome of "suburbia". The only thing more scarce than Democrats on the far west side of Indy at that point in time was POC. IU was a whole new world to me...
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Yeah it’s a mind blowing claim. Like when Dr. Evil said how his dad would make insane claims like how he invented the question mark.
Here's an interesting question: is it even possible for two different monotheistic religions to worship different Gods? Couldn't you argue that they must be the same God by definition?

But in the case of Muslims and Christians, it's even clearer. They both worship the God who revealed himself to Abraham. There isn't a lot of wiggle room for other interpretations here.
 

Hoopsdoc1978

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Not to speak for cosmic, but I think the point is that these "Newsmax douchebags" present a very specific and repulsively ignorant view of the debate over America as a secular/inclusive/Christian/exclusive nation, and cosmic seems to be interested in what others who might consider themselves Christian conservatives think about that view.

It seems obvious to most of us that most Christian conservatives on this forum would probably think their view is ridiculous, but the truth is, it's not always that obvious.
FWIW, IU offered an opinion and was told by Cosmic he didn’t deserve to have it.
 

INRanger27

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Here's an interesting question: is it even possible for two different monotheistic religions to worship different Gods? Couldn't you argue that they must be the same God by definition?

But in the case of Muslims and Christians, it's even clearer. They both worship the God who revealed himself to Abraham. There isn't a lot of wiggle room for other interpretations here.
I think the first question is “sure, why not?” A philosopher might make the same point you’re implying but to the layman if the origin stories of the God and the creed and tenets of worship are totally different then it’s feasible.

To me there is only one God: Crom. He laughs at your God from his mountain.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I think the first question is “sure, why not?” A philosopher might make the same point you’re implying but to the layman if the origin stories of the God and the creed and tenets of worship are totally different then it’s feasible.

To me there is only one God: Crom. He laughs at your God from his mountain.
I prefer a trinity.

il_570xN.511314847_8ihs.jpg
 
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cosmickid

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I'm not sure I see the value in using a bunch of Newsmax douchebags as a springboard for a conversation about prayer in schools. Feels like a reach to me.
I respect your post. But it just struck me as the complete opposite of what people who argue for "prayer" in school say while they argue their point. I mean how can you claim you'd be "OK" with a round-robin type approach where one day the prayer is led by a Christian, then a Jew, Muslim, etc if you're this triggered by the innocent use of Allah?

I'm pretty sure how Van comes down on this, so I just was curious as to how any other "prayer in school" advocates on the board (if there are any) view the video and how it fits with the popular claim of "religious equality" some from that constituency make.

Most of the "conservatives" on this board strike me as more secular than religious with regards to the stances they take, so I was really flying blind with regards to who the people I was addressing might be. For example, mcmurtry seems to take issue with anything I post (including this thread) but I honestly had no reason to believe this discussion (Christian Theocracy) would be an issue that concerned him...On the other hand, Van is a pretty well-known commodity within this particular realm...
 
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INRanger27

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I respect your post. But it just struck me as the complete opposite of what people who argue for "prayer" in school say while they argue their point. I mean how can you claim you'd be "OK" with a round-robin type approach where one day the prayer is led by a Christian, then a Jew, Muslim, etc if you're this triggered by the innocent use of Allah?

I'm pretty sure how Van comes down on this, so I just was curious as to how any other "prayer in school" advocates on the board (if there are any) view the video and how it fits with the popular claim of "religious equality" some from that constituency make.

Most of the "conservatives" on this board strike me as more secular than religious with regards to the stances they take, so I was really flying blind with regards to who the people I was addressing might be. For example, mcmurtry seems to take issue with anything I post (including this thread) but I honestly had no reason to believe this discussion (Christian Theocracy) would be an issue that concerned him...On the other hand, Van is a pretty well-known commodity within this particular realm...
I’m a conservative and I do not want prayer in schools.
 

UncleMark

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I respect your post. But it just struck me as the complete opposite of what people who argue for "prayer" in school say while they argue their point. I mean how can you claim you'd be "OK" with a round-robin type approach where one day the prayer is led by a Christian, then a Jew, Muslim, etc if you're this triggered by the innocent use of Allah?
Anyone with any sense knows the "prayer in schools" crowd means Christian. It was Christian prayer that was banned, after all. They may give lip service to being open to other religions "in theory", but this incident proves what we all know to actually be the case in practice.

Truthfully, I doubt VPM will even weigh in. He tends to avoid topics he knows will put him in a box he can't weasel out of.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Anyone with any sense knows the "prayer in schools" crowd means Christian. They may give lip service to being open to other religions "in theory", but this incident proves what we all know to actually be the case in practice.

Truthfully, I doubt VPM will even weigh in. He tends to avoid topics he knows will put him in a box he can't weasel out of.
Of course that's what they mean. And always have.

 
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cosmickid

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FWIW, IU offered an opinion and was told by Cosmic he didn’t deserve to have it.
You're sort of misconstruing what I said, or at least meant to say to Crazy. Basically, you either disagree with what the Newsmax guys say, or you agree with them. I don't believe you can agree with them and have any other opinion that the girl is wrong-the 2 opinions in my mind go hand in hand. So if you're not bothered by what they said then you're basically saying you believe the girl did something wrong...

Crazy seemed to feel the girl was an Arabic-speaking immigrant, but he also admitted he hadn't seen the video. So I sort of tried to give him a pass and allow for the possibility that he was arguing for the rights of citizens over possible (non-citizen) immigrants. I can at least see the possible value in that POV, but that is NOT what the Newsmax people were saying.

They were saying THEIR RELIGION should be prominent and that the girl had done wrong because Christians had been offended. Essentially they were arguing Christianity deserved preeminent stature.

I say that Christians do not deserve special treatment and that if the person speaking is of a different faith they have the SAME RIGHTS as the offended Christians. I believe that is what the whole "Separation of Church and State" in the US Constitution says...
 

cosmickid

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I’m a conservative and I do not want prayer in schools.
I have that exact opinion of you and others. That's why I said I didn't even know of any Religious Conservatives on the board. I feel you're more of a secular Conservative, and again I didn't know if anybody other than Van would even agree with the Newsmax guys.
I really was curious...
 

IUCrazy2

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Literally the entire theology of all three religions is built around the fact that it is, actually, the same God. I mean, the term "Abrahamic religions" exists for a reason.

Like I said you cannot get into the theology of it without people getting bent out of shape.

Mohammad was a nut bag warlord who made up a new religion and tied it to the 2 prevailing religions in his area for power. And in the midst of doing that pretty much perverted almost everything about them.

We don't worship the same deity.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
Like I said you cannot get into the theology of it without people getting bent out of shape.

Mohammad was a nut bag warlord who made up a new religion and tied it to the 2 prevailing religions in his area for power. And in the midst of doing that pretty much perverted almost everything about them.

We don't worship the same deity.
Even if your second paragraph is true, the third is not. It's the same deity. Saying it isn't is like two Republicans disagreeing on what Reagan really stood for. He's still Reagan. There was only one Reagan.