Questions for the WC's "social" Conservatives

hoot1

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By and large our country is far less religious than it used to be.
Depends on how you measure "religious" in my view.

I contend we share many of the values often associated with religious values such as hard work, caring for family, charity, behaving morally, and the list goes on. The thread started out by referring to "social conservatives". I see many of my politically liberal friends talk the liberal line while living and practicing the same values touted by so-called social conservatives.

Just as liberals and social conservatives share many of the same values, people of various Christian denominations along with those of other major religions share many of the same values.

Unfortunately rather than focus on all the values with which agree, we are hung up on those which we differ.
 

Aloha Hoosier

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Warning, the OP is lengthy. Please choose to read/respond ( or not) accordingly- I wanted to set the stage for the discussion, and not just post the (offensive) video...

And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...

There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.

More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...

Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?

The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?

I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...

Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?

I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?

I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.

We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.

Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.

Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...

The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
Seems like a proverbial nothing-burger to me. I don't care if a person uses Allah for the English word "God." I suspect, but don't know or really care, that the kid probably did it with the intention to create a minor controversy. However, it's still not a concern for me.
 
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Yeah, things are going great....
Things have never been going great, it's an illusion of selected memories, incomplete histories and fabrications. Somebody is always getting screwed and when it's done under the guise of religion you are arguing against someones deity. I have in-laws who went on a long rant about how there should prayer in schools, I asked "who's" and they flipped out. The faster we get past gods and monsters the better.
 
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Noodle

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Things have never been going great, it's an illusion of selected memories, incomplete histories and fabrications. Somebody is always getting screwed and when it's done under the guise of religion you are arguing against someones deity. I have in-laws who went on a long rant about how there should prayer in schools, I asked "who's" and they flipped out. The faster we get past gods and monsters the better.
You really know how to keep things copasetic with the in-laws. ;)
 

INRanger27

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Depends on how you measure "religious" in my view.

I contend we share many of the values often associated with religious values such as hard work, caring for family, charity, behaving morally, and the list goes on. The thread started out by referring to "social conservatives". I see many of my politically liberal friends talk the liberal line while living and practicing the same values touted by so-called social conservatives.

Just as liberals and social conservatives share many of the same values, people of various Christian denominations along with those of other major religions share many of the same values.

Unfortunately rather than focus on all the values with which agree, we are hung up on those which we differ.
Don’t overthink it brosef.

PF_10.17.19_rdd_update-00-020.png
 

hoot1

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Don’t overthink it brosef.

PF_10.17.19_rdd_update-00-020.png
Ranger appreciate your post showing that fewer Americans are identifying as Christians along an increase in those who no longer identify as being affiliated to any religion.

My point was that Americans who might not call themselves Christians or identify with a particular religion may still share many of the same values as those who do.

In other words, a social conservative could also be an atheist.
 
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INRanger27

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Ranger appreciate your post showing that fewer Americans are identifying as Christians along an increase in those who no longer identify as being affiliated to any religion.

My point was that Americans who might not call themselves Christians or identify with a particular religion may still share many of the same values as those who do.

In other words, a social conservative could also be an atheist.
Of course sir. I’ve long held that the religious do not have a monopoly on values such as virtue and ethics.
 
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You really know how to keep things copasetic with the in-laws. ;)
It was a weird situation, my wife is the youngest of a bunch of kids, I'm the oldest of three. Her siblings and their spouses are my parents age. They deferred to her parents no matter what nutty thing they said; my family viewed family get togethers as a fun verbal contact sport.
And for no apparent reason her Mom loved me to the day she died and I miss her as well.
 

VanPastorMan

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Saying the country is far less religious than it once was is not the same as saying the majority are atheists. The former identifies the real trend and the latter is a misreading of my wording.
I brought up atheism in terms of them getting Christian holidays off. The word religious is an interesting word. Does it mean today that you believe something or that you do something? Plenty of people say they believe thus and so but don't seem to do anything because of it. Now the Christian Faith says that we are saved by Grace through Faith Ephesians 2:8-9. But verse 10 says God has works for us to do that were prepared beforehand. Faith and repentance goes hand in hand. Now I always say we are not saved by our repentance. But our repentance is evidence of our true conversion. I must be careful here. We still sin as Christians. I actually know this more than people do outside the church. If you think you really know outside the church I can testify you don't know. In my mind an example of faith and repentance is Zacchaeus in Luke 19:1-10
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.


5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.


7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”


8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”


9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
 

Bowlmania

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We still sin as Christians. I actually know this more than people do outside the church. If you think you really know outside the church I can testify you don't know.
That's pretty arrogant. Of course we're all sinners.

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”


9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Wow. Redistribution of wealth. Handouts to the poor. Sounds very leftist.
 

VanPastorMan

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That's pretty arrogant. Of course we're all sinners.


Wow. Redistribution of wealth. Handouts to the poor. Sounds very leftist.
So you admit you are a sinner. The question is how can you then be saved before a Holy God who abhors sin? I actually appreciate you admitting it because your words are right out of Romans 3:23. All have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Thanks. I do see a difference between government forced redistribution and giving to the poor. Jesus was not telling governments to do this but individuals.
 

mcmurtry66

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So you admit you are a sinner. The question is how can you then be saved before a Holy God who abhors sin? I actually appreciate you admitting it because your words are right out of Romans 3:23. All have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Thanks. I do see a difference between government forced redistribution and giving to the poor. Jesus was not telling governments to do this but individuals.
Now that he's confessed to being a sinner and in need of being saved it would be a real watershed moment for the cooler if you could connect with him and begin the process of saving him. The cooler is such a toxic place with the endless bickering to have one of its members saved would be wonderful.

Keep us in the loop
 

i'vegotwinners

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So you admit you are a sinner. The question is how can you then be saved before a Holy God who abhors sin? I actually appreciate you admitting it because your words are right out of Romans 3:23. All have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Thanks. I do see a difference between government forced redistribution and giving to the poor. Jesus was not telling governments to do this but individuals.

and do you really not think Jesus would want that from govts, especially govts very actively involved in engineering wealth disproportion to begin with?

that said, according to the politically active Christians i hear spouting off all the time, they're sure were JC alive today, he'd be down on the border with an AR-15 over each shoulder, making sure no families born on the wrong side of that line had the same opportunities in life as those born on the lucky side of that same border, who confuse dumb luck with deserving.
 
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VanPastorMan

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Now that he's confessed to being a sinner and in need of being saved it would be a real watershed moment for the cooler if you could connect with him and begin the process of saving him. The cooler is such a toxic place with the endless bickering to have one of its members saved would be wonderful.

Keep us in the loop
Here is a material I have used before.
Step 1 – God loves you and has a plan for you!

The Bible says, “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Jesus said, “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly”—a complete life full of purpose (John 10:10). But here’s the problem:

Step 2 – Man is sinful and separated from God.

We have all done, thought or said bad things, which the Bible calls “sin.” The Bible says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). The result of sin is death, spiritual separation from God (Romans 6:23). The good news?

Step 3 – God sent His Son to die for your sins!

Jesus died in our place so we could have a relationship with God and be with Him forever. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). But it didn’t end with His death on the cross. He rose again and still lives! “Christ died for our sins. … He was buried. … He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6).

Step 4 – Would you like to receive God’s forgiveness?

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

"Dear God,
I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died
for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord,
from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

Did you pray this prayer and mean it completely in your heart?
 

VanPastorMan

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and do you really not think Jesus would want that from govts, especially govts very actively involved in engineering wealth disproportion to begin with?

that said, according to the politically active Christians i hear spouting off all the time, they're sure were JC alive today, he'd be down on the border with an AR-15 over each shoulder, making sure no families born on the wrong side of that line had the same opportunities in life as those born on the lucky side of that same border, who confuse dumb luck with deserving.
I was specifically talking about what Jesus and the Christian doctrine of giving was about. If a doctor has more money than I do then what is it about that which makes me feel as though the government should take money from him or her and give it to me?
Your statement about what some Christians would think is something I can't know. I have not heard Jesus speak about the border. I do know that all of the nations and empires on the Earth exist because He wills it. In the Bible you see nations which exist. So since they do then doesn't a nation have the right to say who can be here and who can't? Open borders is a dumb idea. It is chaos. In the early 20th century we had lots of immigrants come to America. Then we suspended immigration for a lot of years. Why? It was so those immigrants could settle down and become Americans. It takes time to feel at home on the part of the immigrants. It also takes time for the country to absorb new folks.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Here is a material I have used before.
Step 1 – God loves you and has a plan for you!

The Bible says, “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Jesus said, “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly”—a complete life full of purpose (John 10:10). But here’s the problem:

Step 2 – Man is sinful and separated from God.

We have all done, thought or said bad things, which the Bible calls “sin.” The Bible says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). The result of sin is death, spiritual separation from God (Romans 6:23). The good news?

Step 3 – God sent His Son to die for your sins!

Jesus died in our place so we could have a relationship with God and be with Him forever. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). But it didn’t end with His death on the cross. He rose again and still lives! “Christ died for our sins. … He was buried. … He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6).

Step 4 – Would you like to receive God’s forgiveness?

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

"Dear God,
I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died
for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord,
from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

Did you pray this prayer and mean it completely in your heart?
Yes. This is perfect. Bowlmania has finally confessed that he is a sinner and you have laid out his path to salvation on the rivals network Indiana watercooler open forum. Thank you Pastor. Please continue to keep us apprised of Bowlmania’s journey.
 
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VanPastorMan

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That's pretty arrogant. Of course we're all sinners.


Wow. Redistribution of wealth. Handouts to the poor. Sounds very leftist.
Step 1 – God loves you and has a plan for you!

The Bible says, “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Jesus said, “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly”—a complete life full of purpose (John 10:10). But here’s the problem:

Step 2 – Man is sinful and separated from God.

We have all done, thought or said bad things, which the Bible calls “sin.” The Bible says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). The result of sin is death, spiritual separation from God (Romans 6:23). The good news?

Step 3 – God sent His Son to die for your sins!

Jesus died in our place so we could have a relationship with God and be with Him forever. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). But it didn’t end with His death on the cross. He rose again and still lives! “Christ died for our sins. … He was buried. … He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6).

Step 4 – Would you like to receive God’s forgiveness?

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

"Dear God,
I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died
for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord,
from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

Did you pray this prayer and mean it completely in your heart?
 

mcmurtry66

Hall of Famer
Mar 14, 2019
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Step 1 – God loves you and has a plan for you!

The Bible says, “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Jesus said, “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly”—a complete life full of purpose (John 10:10). But here’s the problem:

Step 2 – Man is sinful and separated from God.

We have all done, thought or said bad things, which the Bible calls “sin.” The Bible says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). The result of sin is death, spiritual separation from God (Romans 6:23). The good news?

Step 3 – God sent His Son to die for your sins!

Jesus died in our place so we could have a relationship with God and be with Him forever. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). But it didn’t end with His death on the cross. He rose again and still lives! “Christ died for our sins. … He was buried. … He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6).

Step 4 – Would you like to receive God’s forgiveness?

We can’t earn salvation; we are saved by God’s grace when we have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is believe you are a sinner, that Christ died for your sins, and ask His forgiveness. Then turn from your sins—that’s called repentance. Jesus Christ knows you and loves you. What matters to Him is the attitude of your heart, your honesty. We suggest praying the following prayer to accept Christ as your Savior:

"Dear God,
I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died
for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord,
from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

Did you pray this prayer and mean it completely in your heart?
He’s fighting back. We both know that’s the devil in him. Stay strong pastor.
 
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VanPastorMan

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I loved this movie but I didn't like this scene. It's because what was the basis of faith this man thought he was redeemed? It was baptism. You can't have faith in your act. Faith is in Christ and His perfect work on the Cross since He died to pay the penalty for your sin. You get baptized so the world will know what happened to you when you came to Christ to be saved.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
I brought up atheism in terms of them getting Christian holidays off. The word religious is an interesting word. Does it mean today that you believe something or that you do something? Plenty of people say they believe thus and so but don't seem to do anything because of it. Now the Christian Faith says that we are saved by Grace through Faith Ephesians 2:8-9. But verse 10 says God has works for us to do that were prepared beforehand. Faith and repentance goes hand in hand. Now I always say we are not saved by our repentance. But our repentance is evidence of our true conversion. I must be careful here. We still sin as Christians. I actually know this more than people do outside the church. If you think you really know outside the church I can testify you don't know. In my mind an example of faith and repentance is Zacchaeus in Luke 19:1-10
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.


5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.


7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”


8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”


9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Wait...you're a Papist?
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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So you admit you are a sinner. The question is how can you then be saved before a Holy God who abhors sin? I actually appreciate you admitting it because your words are right out of Romans 3:23. All have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Thanks. I do see a difference between government forced redistribution and giving to the poor. Jesus was not telling governments to do this but individuals.
If an individual votes against government programs for the poor, isn't that morally identical to said individual declining to give to the poor on his own account? Why should the mechanism for the distribution matter? Either we support helping the poor, or we don't. When someone says, "I support helping the poor, but I won't vote for it because I don't support the government being involved," all I hear is "Stay away, poor person, this is my money."
 

VanPastorMan

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If an individual votes against government programs for the poor, isn't that morally identical to said individual declining to give to the poor on his own account? Why should the mechanism for the distribution matter? Either we support helping the poor, or we don't. When someone says, "I support helping the poor, but I won't vote for it because I don't support the government being involved," all I hear is "Stay away, poor person, this is my money."
Isn't there a difference between coercion and philanthropy? Helping the poor was always a Christian virtue. But it was done individually. When the Great Society was brought in during the Johnson Administration they said they were going to get rid of poverty. What has been the result? We have seen generational poverty. This is not helping the poor. It is keeping people poor. Isaiah Thomas once said the government breaks up families. His father had to leave the house when they went on Welfare.
I would like to see Welfare tied to work like the Clinton Administration did during the 90's. It got people off the rolls as they began to work. Can I ask you a personal question? Do you give from your funds to help the poor ie soup kitchens? I am not saying this about you, but there are folks who will call for government intervention but they will not give a dime of their own finances. "This is my money" is their cry. I would argue that private poverty programs help out a lot more than government ones because they are locally driven and the goal is to help people up, to help them regain their step in life. George W Bush saw this somewhat when he wanted to give private programs even those with religious beginnings federal funds. Now I did not agree with him because when the government gives money there is always strings attached. But he did see the value in what private organizations are doing to help the poor. Years ago I became part of a program called Love INC. It was a great idea where churches and para church organizations organized their area to help the poor. They were able to weed out the hustlers and help the people who really needed it. All kinds of ministries came from this. They helped unwed mothers with clothes,formula. I remember one church had a group of men who would do car repairs for elderly men and women who couldn't afford it because they were on a fixed income. I could go on and on. It is what we preachers will do. But you get the point.
 

IU_Hickory

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Aug 29, 2017
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The wealthy have no issue paying off the govt to help them be more wealthy. But govt shouldn't be used to help the poor.

Sounds fair
 

INRanger27

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If an individual votes against government programs for the poor, isn't that morally identical to said individual declining to give to the poor on his own account? Why should the mechanism for the distribution matter? Either we support helping the poor, or we don't. When someone says, "I support helping the poor, but I won't vote for it because I don't support the government being involved," all I hear is "Stay away, poor person, this is my money."
Because giving to the poor directly may be effective. Giving to the government to give to the poor is unlikely to be effective.
 
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DANC

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Dec 21, 2001
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If an individual votes against government programs for the poor, isn't that morally identical to said individual declining to give to the poor on his own account? Why should the mechanism for the distribution matter? Either we support helping the poor, or we don't. When someone says, "I support helping the poor, but I won't vote for it because I don't support the government being involved," all I hear is "Stay away, poor person, this is my money."
Why not just give the government 100% of what you earn and they can give you what you need?

They can pay your rent/mortgage, lawn care, grocery bill, clothes, etc.

What difference does the 'mechanism for distribution' matter?
 

BradStevens

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I loved this movie but I didn't like this scene. It's because what was the basis of faith this man thought he was redeemed? It was baptism. You can't have faith in your act. Faith is in Christ and His perfect work on the Cross since He died to pay the penalty for your sin. You get baptized so the world will know what happened to you when you came to Christ to be saved.
Have you read Gilead by Marilynne Robinson?
 

larsIU

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Apr 17, 2010
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I loved this movie but I didn't like this scene. It's because what was the basis of faith this man thought he was redeemed? It was baptism. You can't have faith in your act. Faith is in Christ and His perfect work on the Cross since He died to pay the penalty for your sin. You get baptized so the world will know what happened to you when you came to Christ to be saved.
Understandable. But I think one of the sub threads running through the movie was the superfluous nature of faith itself. From two criminals running into the water to cleanse their sins to Big Dan Teague's grifting bible salesman character to the kid that sold his soul to play the guitar. These are examples of an empty or selfish faith. Existing only for self aggrandizement. Even Clooney's desire to get back to his wife and kids before she married again required him to abuse other's faith in him.

At the end of the day it's a great rewatchable movie.
 

bawlmer

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Dec 12, 2010
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If an individual votes against government programs for the poor, isn't that morally identical to said individual declining to give to the poor on his own account? Why should the mechanism for the distribution matter? Either we support helping the poor, or we don't. When someone says, "I support helping the poor, but I won't vote for it because I don't support the government being involved," all I hear is "Stay away, poor person, this is my money."
Jesus taught that money or time should not be our masters, so the value of giving to the poor actually flows to the giver through proper perspective on those things.

My own Christian beliefs lead me to support larger efforts to help those who are struggling, and while the programs are often inefficient and occasionally misguided, I have a hard time understanding the perspective of some Christians that supporting the poor should not be a government function. If we're all 'neighbors', then combining resources to help neighbors in need is fully Christian.

But the real value for me from a Christian perspective is the inter-personal exchange of individually helping another person, beyond the simple act of handing out money.
 
May 11, 2010
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Because giving to the poor directly may be effective. Giving to the government to give to the poor is unlikely to be effective.
If you're talking about the working poor you might be right. I went to school in Chicago and then lived/worked there for another ten years. One of the first things you learn is never put money in anyone's hand because they are going to drink it/smoke it/ shoot it or it's a scam.
Two little stories:
1. I was going on a sales to a law firm in the Tower with a rep and a guy hits us up on the way for food money, saying he hadn't that day. We're late and we tell him we'll catch on the way back. We exit the Tower after the call and can see him on the same corner, so we dip in a McDonald's and get him a couple of burgers, fries and a water. When we stop to give it to him he says: "Why the hell would I want that?"

2. I was heading to service call (I was a tech at the time) and a woman stopped me and said that her car broke down could I help with a couple of bucks. She was well dressed, Burberry coat, business heels,... I have no cash but after my call I stop at an ATM and get some cash; she's nowhere to be found. I figured she must have gotten things worked out. Next day I head out for a different set of calls and there she is giving the same pitch to another guy. I asked if she was still trying to get that car fixed; I walked off and so did the other guy.