Questions for the WC's "social" Conservatives

INRanger27

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Like I said you cannot get into the theology of it without people getting bent out of shape.

Mohammad was a nut bag warlord who made up a new religion and tied it to the 2 prevailing religions in his area for power. And in the midst of doing that pretty much perverted almost everything about them.

We don't worship the same deity.
The timeline and theology changed with Mohammed, yes. But heretofore Mohammed it was all the same God, or Yahweh as the Hebrews called him.

Sorry, but yours is a nonsense argument. You can say that you believe they worship a different version or something, but it is the Abrahamic God shared by Jews, Christians, and yes Muslims.
 

outside shooter

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There are some 4,300 religions / sub-denominations / sects in the world, so if we want prayer in schools, a rotation would seemingly be in order.

Given the 180 day school year in Indiana, every 24 years or so we can have one day of prayer for any one particular religion.

That will work, right?
 

INRanger27

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There are some 4,300 religions / sub-denominations / sects in the world, so if we want prayer in schools, a rotation would seemingly be in order.

Given the 180 day school year in Indiana, every 24 years or so we can have one day of prayer for any one particular religion.

That will work, right?
No prayers in school please.
 

outside shooter

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My kids regularly had to say the pledge in public schools in Florida, and every extracurricular activity, such as band or choir concerts, began with the national anthem.
 
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Noodle

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Do schools still say the pledge? I thought that was donezo.
Mine that are in high school still do. And they did in junior high and elementary school as well. I also believe even the school board meetings begin with the pledge.

I would characterize our community as definitely right leaning, but not to an extreme. I mean last year the school board did (finally) decide to dump the Redskins name from one of the two high schools. While it caused a big uproar (mostly among freaked-out alumni over the age of 40), I think the community as a whole favored the change. My guess would be 60-40, or thereabouts. Also of note is that while there are 4-6 candidates for a November election to the school board, I don't think any are advocating the school revert back to Redskins - even the one that is pretty far to the right.
 

mcmurtry66

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Mine that are in high school still do. And they did in junior high and elementary school as well. I also believe even the school board meetings begin with the pledge.

I would characterize our community as definitely right leaning, but not to an extreme. I mean last year the school board did (finally) decide to dump the Redskins name from one of the two high schools. While it caused a big uproar (mostly among freaked-out alumni over the age of 40), I think the community as a whole favored the change. My guess would be 60-40, or thereabouts. Also of note is that while there are 4-6 candidates for a November election to the school board, I don't think any are advocating the school revert back to Redskins - even the one that is pretty far to the right.
Did they go with Redhawks too?
 

jet812

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Even if your second paragraph is true, the third is not. It's the same deity. Saying it isn't is like two Republicans disagreeing on what Reagan really stood for. He's still Reagan. There was only one Reagan.

Maybe it’s more like claiming that Bigfoot, yeti, Sasquatch, red man, etc are all the same. How the hell would you or anyone else know?
 

cosmickid

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Like I said you cannot get into the theology of it without people getting bent out of shape.

Mohammad was a nut bag warlord who made up a new religion and tied it to the 2 prevailing religions in his area for power. And in the midst of doing that pretty much perverted almost everything about them.

We don't worship the same deity.
So do you worship the same deity as people who are LDS? Have you ever conversed with Mormon missionaries on Christ's visit to America following his resurrection?
 

IUCrazy2

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So do you worship the same deity as people who are LDS? Have you ever conversed with Mormon missionaries on Christ's visit to America following his resurrection?
I have conversed with LDS and no, I do not believe that we worship the same deity.

I know this burns some people up. "How dare you say who they worship...." I am not telling them who or what they worship. I am saying that I reject their claims that they are worshipping the same God that I am. Religions are based on the idea of a central truth. From my perspective, the God of Christianity and the salvation path (noth paths, PATH) laid out by the same are the universal truth. Just because someone comes along hundred or thousands of years later and claims to be speaking those same truths does not mean that I must accept the idea that we worship the same God. We don't.

Let me remove religion from this. If someone was to say, "I am a follower of the great MLK". They said they believe as he did that we should all strive for a world in which we judge people on the content of their character and not physical characteristics. And you say, "awesome, I am a follower of his ideas as well." Then they went on to hand you a baseball bat and said that they were also following his commandments to go bust the heads of those who stand in the way of progress. And you say, "wait a minute, I don't remember that..." Are you both really adherents to the same philosophy? Which philosophy would be closer to the truth? In this case I would say that the head buster was merely using a name and some tenets to attract people based on the popularity of that name. Then they have twisted it to their own ends. So in the case of Islam, they are not worshipping God and his son Jesus Christ. They are worshipping Mohammad. Mohammad created a religion in his image and sought compliance by trying to make it as close to the 2 major religions in his area at the time. Same with LDS. It is not God, it is Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who have created a stand in deity closely tied to God.

But, but, but the disciples and others wrote about stuff so how do you know this that or the other...religion is a faith based and exclusive club with exclusive rules. I believe individual Muslims and individual Mormons and individual atheists, Hindus, etc. can be and are good people. However, my belief system is that there is a God. Jesus is his son. And that the only way to redemptive salvation is through him. There was no need for Mohammad and Smith to come along and change things because the perfect answer already existed.

I know that is a controversial opinion and people get upset about someone not just accepting everyone's opinion on everything but I frankly do not care. I tolerate the idea that people have their own opinions on that and they are free to do so. I don't have to accept their truth though (just like many of you do not tolerate or accept mine).

Edit: one last analogy. I have two fruits. One is red and shiny and tastes good. It grows on trees and has seeds within it that can be used to grow more trees that will grow more of the fruit. I call it an apple.

My neighbor comes along and plants a tree. It too grows a red fruit that tastes good and has seeds that new trees can grow from. He also calls it an apple.

You come along and say, those are some great apples he has. I tell you they are not apples. And you run through the list of characteristics: grows on trees, red fruit, has seeds, seeds can grow more trees, tastes good...sounds like an apple to me. The neighbor's apple:

cherry-with-leaves-isolated-on-white-background-picture-id533381303


The neighbor may think they have an apple, they may think that their apple is the same as mine, but it is not an apple, it is a cherry.
 
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Noodle

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So in the case of Islam, they are not worshipping God and his son Jesus Christ. They are worshipping Mohammad. Mohammad created a religion in his image and sought compliance by trying to make it as close to the 2 major religions in his area at the time.
Muslims do not worship Muhammad.
 
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INRanger27

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I have conversed with LDS and no, I do not believe that we worship the same deity.

I know this burns some people up. "How dare you say who they worship...." I am not telling them who or what they worship. I am saying that I reject their claims that they are worshipping the same God that I am. Religions are based on the idea of a central truth. From my perspective, the God of Christianity and the salvation path (noth paths, PATH) laid out by the same are the universal truth. Just because someone comes along hundred or thousands of years later and claims to be speaking those same truths does not mean that I must accept the idea that we worship the same God. We don't.

Let me remove religion from this. If someone was to say, "I am a follower of the great MLK". They said they believe as he did that we should all strive for a world in which we judge people on the content of their character and not physical characteristics. And you say, "awesome, I am a follower of his ideas as well." Then they went on to hand you a baseball bat and said that they were also following his commandments to go bust the heads of those who stand in the way of progress. And you say, "wait a minute, I don't remember that..." Are you both really adherents to the same philosophy? Which philosophy would be closer to the truth? In this case I would say that the head buster was merely using a name and some tenets to attract people based on the popularity of that name. Then they have twisted it to their own ends. So in the case of Islam, they are not worshipping God and his son Jesus Christ. They are worshipping Mohammad. Mohammad created a religion in his image and sought compliance by trying to make it as close to the 2 major religions in his area at the time. Same with LDS. It is not God, it is Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who have created a stand in deity closely tied to God.

But, but, but the disciples and others wrote about stuff so how do you know this that or the other...religion is a faith based and exclusive club with exclusive rules. I believe individual Muslims and individual Mormons and individual atheists, Hindus, etc. can be and are good people. However, my belief system is that there is a God. Jesus is his son. And that the only way to redemptive salvation is through him. There was no need for Mohammad and Smith to come along and change things because the perfect answer already existed.

I know that is a controversial opinion and people get upset about someone not just accepting everyone's opinion on everything but I frankly do not care. I tolerate the idea that people have their own opinions on that and they are free to do so. I don't have to accept their truth though (just like many of you do not tolerate or accept mine).

Edit: one last analogy. I have two fruits. One is red and shiny and tastes good. It grows on trees and has seeds within it that can be used to grow more trees that will grow more of the fruit. I call it an apple.

My neighbor comes along and plants a tree. It too grows a red fruit that tastes good and has seeds that new trees can grow from. He also calls it an apple.

You come along and say, those are some great apples he has. I tell you they are not apples. And you run through the list of characteristics: grows on trees, red fruit, has seeds, seeds can grow more trees, tastes good...sounds like an apple to me. The neighbor's apple:

cherry-with-leaves-isolated-on-white-background-picture-id533381303


The neighbor may think they have an apple, they may think that their apple is the same as mine, but it is not an apple, it is a cherry.
All of what you say here is fine, but then it means you’re not a Christian. You’re whatever the hell you think Christianity is - but you’re not a true Christian. You don’t get, per basic logic, to reassign Gods based on your interpretation of what you decide your God is.
 
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hoot1

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Found this interesting take on the subject of whether Christians, Muslims, and Jews pray to the same God. The article concludes that they do pray to the same God..

Nevertheless, the author also ends up stating the following,

Muslims, Christians and Jews do all worship the same complex God. Yet, in spite of this, all believe that their religion contains the full and final revelation of the same God. Here is the origin of their unity. Here also lies the cause of their division.

For this belief in the truth of one religion and the falsity of the others leads to inevitable conflict between the believer and the unbeliever, the chosen and the rejected, the saved and the damned. Here lie the seeds of intolerance and violence.

So the God of Muhammad, like the God of Jesus and Moses, divides as much as he unites, a cause of strife both between and within these religions.
 

cosmickid

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Like I said you cannot get into the theology of it without people getting bent out of shape.

Mohammad was a nut bag warlord who made up a new religion and tied it to the 2 prevailing religions in his area for power. And in the midst of doing that pretty much perverted almost everything about them.

We don't worship the same deity.
There is only one word that means "God" in Arabic. Hebrew and Arabic both developed as languages around 10-1500 BC. However by the year, 3 BC Hebrew had basically ceased to be spoken by the people who lived in the Middle East, specifically Palestine. So while the Bible was translated into both Hebrew and English around 1500 AD, neither of those languages were really spoken by people who lived in Palestine around the time that the man known as Christ is thought to have been born/lived...

The prevailing language in that region by 3 BC was Arabic. People who considered themselves Jews at that time did not speak Hebrew because they had assimilated into speaking Arabic. That means even among Jews contemporary to Christ the word they used to refer to God was ALLAH, the Arabic term for God. No one in the entire world spoke English, English was still centuries away from being created as a language...

Since Jews spoke Arabic and were a proselytizing people when they spoke of their definition of a creator to their non-Jewish neighbors who also spoke Arabic they used ALLAH meaning God.People who started following the man known as Jesus and called themselves Christians would also have spoken Arabic, so as people who were not Jews or Christians were then converted to the new religion they would all refer to GOD as ALLAH.

This is all roughly 5 centuries BEFORE the birth of Mohammad, who was born in 570 in Saudi Arabia. Like everyone else alive in the Middle East in 570 AD, Mohammad spoke Arabic. So naturally, he based his religion around the concept of a supreme being which he called ALLAH.

English still did not exist as a language, so he certainly didn't "steal" the term GOD. And adherents of his "new" religion (Islam) all spoke Arabic as well, so basically by the time of Mohammad's death the adherents of all 3 religions (Islam, Jew, Christian) all still spoke Arabic and referred to their concept of a supreme being as ALLAH...

All 3 religions share the same prophets and one true supreme being. Eventually, with the advent of the Holy Roman Empire and Europeans influx into the area, Christianity became more of a European-centered religion while Arabs largely became followers of Islam.

The Europeans brought new languages like Italian, French, and English and they started to apply non_arabic terms for a supreme being to what had previously been people referring to ALLAH. Eventually, they translated the original Aramaic/Arabic notes of what became the bible into English which results in some confused folks actually believing that English was somehow spoken during the lifetime of Christ...

But it's important to note that there are still Arabic people who are either Christians or Jews. Since many of these folks only speak Arabic, they still refer to their specific concept of God/Supreme being in Arabic as ALLAH. In other words, Palestinians who practice the Christian (or Jewish) faith and speak Arabic still use the word ALLAH when referring to the (non-Islamic) God of either Christianity or Judaism respectively...

It's so typically American for people to be oblivious to a fact like this, just like the basically caucasian depictions of Christ that you often see...
 
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Noodle

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The insanity is growing, as now one of the Nesmax blowhards wants the student criminally investigated.

 

IU_Hickory

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The insanity is growing, as now one of the Nesmax blowhards wants the student criminally investigated.


Wonder if they are really that dumb or if this is just an attempt to fire up their viewers
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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There is only one word that means "God" in Arabic. Hebrew and Arabic both developed as languages around 10-1500 BC. However by the year, 3 BC Hebrew had basically ceased to be spoken by the people who lived in the Middle East, specifically Palestine. So while the Bible was translated into both Hebrew and English around 1500 AD, neither of those languages were really spoken by people who lived in Palestine around the time that the man known as Christ is thought to have been born/lived...

The prevailing language in that region by 3 BC was Arabic. People who considered themselves Jews at that time did not speak Hebrew because they had assimilated into speaking Arabic. That means even among Jews contemporary to Christ the word they used to refer to God was ALLAH, the Arabic term for God. No one in the entire world spoke English, English was still centuries away from being created as a language...

Since Jews spoke Arabic and were a proselytizing people when they spoke of their definition of a creator to their non-Jewish neighbors who also spoke Arabic they used ALLAH meaning God.People who started following the man known as Jesus and called themselves Christians would also have spoken Arabic, so as people who were not Jews or Christians were then converted to the new religion they would all refer to GOD as ALLAH.

This is all roughly 5 centuries BEFORE the birth of Mohammad, who was born in 570 in Saudi Arabia. Like everyone else alive in the Middle East in 570 AD, Mohammad spoke Arabic. So naturally, he based his religion around the concept of a supreme being which he called ALLAH.

English still did not exist as a language, so he certainly didn't "steal" the term GOD. And adherents of his "new" religion (Islam) all spoke Arabic as well, so basically by the time of Mohammad's death the adherents of all 3 religions (Islam, Jew, Christian) all still spoke Arabic and referred to their concept of a supreme being as ALLAH...

All 3 religions share the same prophets and one true supreme being. Eventually, with the advent of the Holy Roman Empire and Europeans influx into the area, Christianity became more of a European-centered religion while Arabs largely became followers of Islam.

The Europeans brought new languages like Italian, French, and English and they started to apply non_arabic terms for a supreme being to what had previously been people referring to ALLAH. Eventually, they translated the original Aramaic/Arabic notes of what became the bible into English which results in some confused folks actually believing that English was somehow spoken during the lifetime of Christ...

But it's important to note that there are still Arabic people who are either Christians or Jews. Since many of these folks only speak Arabic, they still refer to their specific concept of God/Supreme being in Arabic as ALLAH. In other words, Palestinians who practice the Christian (or Jewish) faith and speak Arabic still use the word ALLAH when referring to the (non-Islamic) God of either Christianity or Judaism respectively...

It's so typically American for people to be oblivious to a fact like this, just like the basically caucasian depictions of Christ that you often see...
Although your broader point is correct, I'm not sure where you get this about Arabic in the Levant during the time of Jesus. Arabic was still being formed among the nomads on the Arabian peninsula at the time. The Jews and Christians of Palestine and Syria would have spoken Aramaic, and if they were educated or at all involved in trade or government, Greek, as well.

Aramaic, like Hebrew, doesn't have a single word for "God," but lots of them. One of the more common was "Elah." Although this sounds similar to "Allah," I cannot say for sure if they are cognates. Aramaic and Arabic are both Semitic languages, but they are from two different branches only distantly related.

That being said, you are right that Allah is not the name of the Islamic version of God, but rather is simply the Arabic word for God. Arab Christians regularly refer to God as Allah.
 
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hoot1

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Would love to see the Newsmax commentators' reactions if they find out the Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by a minister Francis Bellamy who was a socialist. Some might call the author a Marxist.

The ultimate irony being the "under God" phrase was added in 1954 during the Cold War to prove we weren't like the godless Marxist communists.
 
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VanPastorMan

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Warning, the OP is lengthy. Please choose to read/respond ( or not) accordingly- I wanted to set the stage for the discussion, and not just post the (offensive) video...

And let me say that other than Pastor Van, I'm not sure who that would include or if such an animal even exists. Let's be even more exclusive, and narrow our definition to Religious Conservatives, people who might argue that the US is a "Christian Nation"...

There may actually be people here that are in favor of a Christian Theocracy here, I honestly just don't know. But it seems to me that a significant amount of people who argue for getting Religion back in school always seem to couch their argument in terms of inclusion and religious plurality.

More precisely, when people who advocate for "prayer" in school are asked if that would include (for example) Islamic or Hindu prayers the answer always seems to be (a very PC) "of course", with a nod to atheists/agnostics as well...

Anyway, that is the rational type of answer prayer advocates give when they want to portray themselves as inclusive and tolerant. But if any of you see yourself in this context, is that the way you truly feel. Or are you just deceiving yourself, in terms of the amount of religious tolerance you find acceptable?

The reason I'm curious is the reaction these Newsmax hosts experience when the young teenager in this video substitutes Allah for God when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at a function in her high school. Do these folks speak for you or the folks you know who advocate for prayer, or is this reaction as abhorrent to you as I find it to be?

I mean beyond people calling for her to be "punished" as if she did something wrong, there is the fact that these people are seemingly unaware of the actual history of the POA. I mean they (stupidly) seem to believe as if it's something found in the Constitution when in reality the POA was adopted in the mid-1940s, and the words "under God" weren't even added till around 1955...

Why is it (seemingly) often the case that people who profess their "love" of the Constitution either have never read it or have no earthly idea what is and is not included within it? Would these people be as freaked had she substituted the word elohim/YHWH for God? What if she had said "Dieu", so French, instead of Hebrew? Is this bigamy just general Xenophobia or is it more refined into basic Islamophobia?

I mean the US has over 3 Million people who adhere to the Islamic faith. Can you really advocate "prayer" in schools AND claim to be "inclusive and tolerant" (and not a Christian elitist) if you freak out over one of them describing the country as "Under (the Arabic translation for God")? And btw, exactly when did folks on the Right (Religious Conservatives) start to substitute "Judeo-Christian nation" for just plain "Christian nation" when discussing what the US is, in terms of the principles it was founded on?

I ask because in terms of my experience this seems like a fairly recent phenomenon for Right-wing Religious Conservatives to become this inclusive. Heck, I remember how anti-Catholic bigotry existed when I was a kid growing up on the West side of Marion Co (Indy) when the kids from the Catholic schools were viewed as "outsiders". And of course, the true religious minority and total outsiders in Suburban Indy in the 60s were the Jews...

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but when I was in elementary school (around 5th grade) in Indiana we had this 3 day a week phenomenon called Weekday Religious Education. Of course, I never questioned it (or recognized it for what it was) when I was younger- for me it was a way to get out of the school routine for an hour or so the days we engaged in it.

We actually walked off the school property to a trailer where we basically had a sort of Sunday School using the trailer as a classroom. Of course, when I look back and remember those days, I'm struck by the kids (mainly Jewish) who chose not to participate (you had to get permission from your parents), stayed in the classroom with a monitor, and consequently were ostracized.

Of course, the parents were free to allow their kids to attend. But seriously if you were any sort of religious or cultural Jew would you ever feel comfortable having your 5th-grade child indoctrinated into Protestantism at school by some Evangelical layperson or cleric? Similar to how the school put on a "Christmas Program" every year where again the kids who were Jewish were basically excluded. We also had "prayer" in school, but I'm pretty sure the prayers were never Catholic in origin, much less Jewish.

Seriously if you aren't offended (I was actually shocked) by some of the nonsense these Newsmax morons are spewing, then I'm not sure you and I have read the same Constitution...Especially the elements regarding separation of Church and State...

The plastic-faced lady in green strikes me as one of the stupidest people imaginable, in a constituency where that is a very low bar, to begin with. See if you agree...
I just got home from vacation. The country was.founded on Christian principles. We don't have a.state.church. I am favor of student initiated prayer in school. If a Christian teacher wanted to attend the this is fine as.long as.the students.are leading it
Muslim kids could have.prayer time too because all u.s. students have 1st amendment rights and the right to practice.their faith according to the lambs chapel case of 89 or so.
 
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VanPastorMan

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Would love to see the Newsmax commentators' reactions if they find out the Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by a minister Francis Bellamy who was a socialist. Some might call the author a Marxist.

The ultimate irony being the "under God" phrase was added in 1954 during the Cold War to prove we weren't like the godless Marxist communists.
It is true by and large our country is religious. People can worship as they choose which is the great American experiment. Of course the very small minority of those who don't believe in God can still get Christmas off from their jobs though I wonder how fair that is?????
 

INRanger27

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It is true by and large our country is religious. People can worship as they choose which is the great American experiment. Of course the very small minority of those who don't believe in God can still get Christmas off from their jobs though I wonder how fair that is?????
By and large our country is far less religious than it used to be.
 
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VanPastorMan

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B
By and large our country is far less religious than it used to be.
By polls the vast majority are not atheists. Now as far as church attendance and being involved with a faith community you are right. Christianity used to be in the fabric of the nation so that even if a man or woman didn't really believe they went to church because it was the social thing to do. That has changed and I can't say I am upset about it. I would rather people come to Christ authentically than sit in a pew and go through the motions.
 

INRanger27

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By polls the vast majority are not atheists. Now as far as church attendance and being involved with a faith community you are right. Christianity used to be in the fabric of the nation so that even if a man or woman didn't really believe they went to church because it was the social thing to do. That has changed and I can't say I am upset about it. I would rather people come to Christ authentically than sit in a pew and go through the motions.
Saying the country is far less religious than it once was is not the same as saying the majority are atheists. The former identifies the real trend and the latter is a misreading of my wording.
 

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