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Pope Francis facing an insurgency of Trumpian proportions

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Oct 4, 2010
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Proving that reactionary populism is a cultural universal, and not unique to American politics, the Vatican is looking square in the face of internal opposition that is reaching crisis levels. While everyone publicly agrees that abuse is wrong, and the Church was wrong to cover it up, the real debate within the church falls along a fault line about something other than abuse itself: gayness.

On the one hand are the "liberals," often Jesuits like the Pope himself and Fr. James Martin, an outspoken supporter of LGBT Catholics (and also a great follow on Twitter), who call for a wide range of reforms in the church, ranging from full acceptance of homosexuality to a more moderate change in approach, recognizing that homosexuality is not a disease, and that gay individuals can be full members of the Christian community. Although this factions supports a wide range of responses to gay Catholics, they all agree that the abuse scandal is not about gayness, but power and corruption.

On the other hand, are the reactionary "conservatives," many of whom are also conspiracy theorists. They say that the abuse scandal is about gayness, that gays are inherently more likely to abuse, that the all-male nature of seminary is a temptation to strong for homosexuals, and that there is a so-called "Lavendar Mafia" of gay priests that protect each other, rotting the church from within with their deplorable gayness. One of those reactionaries recently claimed that the Pope himself knew about McCarrick years ago, and did nothing, and has called on him to resign.

Although the Pope isn't as radical as the likes of Fr. Martin, he seems to side with the liberals on this issue (today, after his visit to Ireland, he responded to a reporter's hypothetical about parents learning their child was gay by stressing that they should respond with love and understanding, not condemnation). But the grumbling of what is essentially the Catholic Tea Party is getting louder. It will be interesting to see how the Papacy weathers this storm.
 
This is going to be interesting from a media coverage standpoint. The media has spent the last 20 years basically attacking the Catholic Church.
Now it appears they are going to do there level best to sandbag these allegations because admitting homosexual men are engaged in the systemic sexual abuse of other men under their power is something neither the New York Times nor any other mainstream media outlet will do.
I should probably say I'm not a follower of the catholic church
 
This is going to be interesting from a media coverage standpoint. The media has spent the last 20 years basically attacking the Catholic Church.
Now it appears they are going to do there level best to sandbag these allegations because admitting homosexual men are engaged in the systemic sexual abuse of other men under their power is something neither the New York Times nor any other mainstream media outlet will do.
I should probably say I'm not a follower of the catholic church
I really don't think you understand what's going on, in either the church, or the media.
 
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This is going to be interesting from a media coverage standpoint. The media has spent the last 20 years basically attacking the Catholic Church.
Now it appears they are going to do there level best to sandbag these allegations because admitting homosexual men are engaged in the systemic sexual abuse of other men under their power is something neither the New York Times nor any other mainstream media outlet will do.
I should probably say I'm not a follower of the catholic church
Homosexual men and pedophiles are not the same.
 
This is going to be interesting from a media coverage standpoint. The media has spent the last 20 years basically attacking the Catholic Church.
Now it appears they are going to do there level best to sandbag these allegations because admitting homosexual men are engaged in the systemic sexual abuse of other men under their power is something neither the New York Times nor any other mainstream media outlet will do.
I should probably say I'm not a follower of the catholic church

Pretty sure it wasn’t all just “homosexual” priests abusing boys. And, like someone else said, pedofiles DO NOT = homosexual men.

The real root of the problem is the celibacy vow. That’s unnatural. It HAS to create really strange behaviors, because humans were absolutely meant to have sex.

The catholic culture of cover-up is also really nuts.

I grew up as a catholic, but haven’t considered myself to be one since the day I left home. Too phony, and flat out weird in the churches.
 
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Proving that reactionary populism is a cultural universal, and not unique to American politics, the Vatican is looking square in the face of internal opposition that is reaching crisis levels. While everyone publicly agrees that abuse is wrong, and the Church was wrong to cover it up, the real debate within the church falls along a fault line about something other than abuse itself: gayness.

On the one hand are the "liberals," often Jesuits like the Pope himself and Fr. James Martin, an outspoken supporter of LGBT Catholics (and also a great follow on Twitter), who call for a wide range of reforms in the church, ranging from full acceptance of homosexuality to a more moderate change in approach, recognizing that homosexuality is not a disease, and that gay individuals can be full members of the Christian community. Although this factions supports a wide range of responses to gay Catholics, they all agree that the abuse scandal is not about gayness, but power and corruption.

On the other hand, are the reactionary "conservatives," many of whom are also conspiracy theorists. They say that the abuse scandal is about gayness, that gays are inherently more likely to abuse, that the all-male nature of seminary is a temptation to strong for homosexuals, and that there is a so-called "Lavendar Mafia" of gay priests that protect each other, rotting the church from within with their deplorable gayness. One of those reactionaries recently claimed that the Pope himself knew about McCarrick years ago, and did nothing, and has called on him to resign.

Although the Pope isn't as radical as the likes of Fr. Martin, he seems to side with the liberals on this issue (today, after his visit to Ireland, he responded to a reporter's hypothetical about parents learning their child was gay by stressing that they should respond with love and understanding, not condemnation). But the grumbling of what is essentially the Catholic Tea Party is getting louder. It will be interesting to see how the Papacy weathers this storm.

This is purely anecdotal, but of the cross section of Catholics who consider themselves conservatives, Pope Francis has sort of been in their crosshairs since early on in his papacy. His 'liberal' stances haven't sat well with many of them and you could almost see how they couldn't compute or reconcile fundamentally disagreeing with the Pope while also holding the papacy in the highest regard.

I can only imagine now that this new cycle probably gives those folks' inner conflict some legitimacy, which kind of sucks. I think it'd be really bad for the church overall for its pendulum to swing too far to the conservative side at this point.

I'm also not certain that the church allowing women to be priests and to take more leadership roles within the church is the magic wand that would magically fix all the church's ills, but I'm 100% for it.
 
This is purely anecdotal, but of the cross section of Catholics who consider themselves conservatives, Pope Francis has sort of been in their crosshairs since early on in his papacy. His 'liberal' stances haven't sat well with many of them and you could almost see how they couldn't compute or reconcile fundamentally disagreeing with the Pope while also holding the papacy in the highest regard.

I can only imagine now that this new cycle probably gives those folks' inner conflict some legitimacy, which kind of sucks. I think it'd be really bad for the church overall for its pendulum to swing too far to the conservative side at this point.

I'm also not certain that the church allowing women to be priests and to take more leadership roles within the church is the magic wand that would magically fix all the church's ills, but I'm 100% for it.
Part of it could be the way Poop Francis drones on about open boarders while he lives in a heavily fortified, walled city.
 
Proving that reactionary populism is a cultural universal, and not unique to American politics, the Vatican is looking square in the face of internal opposition that is reaching crisis levels. While everyone publicly agrees that abuse is wrong, and the Church was wrong to cover it up, the real debate within the church falls along a fault line about something other than abuse itself: gayness.

On the one hand are the "liberals," often Jesuits like the Pope himself and Fr. James Martin, an outspoken supporter of LGBT Catholics (and also a great follow on Twitter), who call for a wide range of reforms in the church, ranging from full acceptance of homosexuality to a more moderate change in approach, recognizing that homosexuality is not a disease, and that gay individuals can be full members of the Christian community. Although this factions supports a wide range of responses to gay Catholics, they all agree that the abuse scandal is not about gayness, but power and corruption.

On the other hand, are the reactionary "conservatives," many of whom are also conspiracy theorists. They say that the abuse scandal is about gayness, that gays are inherently more likely to abuse, that the all-male nature of seminary is a temptation to strong for homosexuals, and that there is a so-called "Lavendar Mafia" of gay priests that protect each other, rotting the church from within with their deplorable gayness. One of those reactionaries recently claimed that the Pope himself knew about McCarrick years ago, and did nothing, and has called on him to resign.

Although the Pope isn't as radical as the likes of Fr. Martin, he seems to side with the liberals on this issue (today, after his visit to Ireland, he responded to a reporter's hypothetical about parents learning their child was gay by stressing that they should respond with love and understanding, not condemnation). But the grumbling of what is essentially the Catholic Tea Party is getting louder. It will be interesting to see how the Papacy weathers this storm.
My guess is that the reactionary's political and media assault on Pope Francis is purely a power play to reassert the traditional Catholic positions regarding "moral" issues, such as divorce, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage and the like, while at the same time unloading the traditionalists' own fault in the Catholic Church's pedophilia scandals onto the Pope to serve their political agenda and their avoidance of their own responsibilities. Classic reactionary tactics . . . .
 
This is purely anecdotal, but of the cross section of Catholics who consider themselves conservatives, Pope Francis has sort of been in their crosshairs since early on in his papacy. His 'liberal' stances haven't sat well with many of them and you could almost see how they couldn't compute or reconcile fundamentally disagreeing with the Pope while also holding the papacy in the highest regard.

I can only imagine now that this new cycle probably gives those folks' inner conflict some legitimacy, which kind of sucks. I think it'd be really bad for the church overall for its pendulum to swing too far to the conservative side at this point.

I'm also not certain that the church allowing women to be priests and to take more leadership roles within the church is the magic wand that would magically fix all the church's ills, but I'm 100% for it.

They should allow priests to marry. They already let Eastern Rite Catholic priests and Anglican priests (who convert to being Catholic priests) be married before they are ordained. There's no hard theological law boxing them out of it like with how women can't be priests.

That would also solve a good portion of the priest shortage issues.
 
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I am not a cradle catholic. But what I have witnessed recently in the church was an open and accepting environment which I felt was great. However, we do on occasion get the priest giving a vailed political critique of current issues. For example, a priest homilie was based on the separation of families business on the border. He spoke of “Washington” loosing a “morale compass” that was found by a fisherman.... it was spinning in circles unable to point in any direction. ..... I do have an email in to the Perish asking if it wasn’t our compass that was missing.... the Pope has a real problem with optics on this. I like the position on homosexuality and all the trans and other designations that the church appears to have opened on. Things like this Cardinal interview is very telling I believe about the left leaning of the church spoken about above. He says in the interview A higher agenda of environment and immigration is more important than sexual abuse. This is a problem.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...cardinal-mccarrick-allegations-491926591.html
 
My guess is that the reactionary's political and media assault on Pope Francis is purely a power play to reassert the traditional Catholic positions regarding "moral" issues, such as divorce, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage and the like, while at the same time unloading the traditionalists' own fault in the Catholic Church's pedophilia scandals onto the Pope to serve their political agenda and their avoidance of their own responsibilities. Classic reactionary tactics . . . .

Bingo. The evangelical Catholics are not fans of the current pope. They are not into his progressive policies and certainly do not appreciate his attention to the poor. This line of Catholics have the exact same political views as the far right evangelicals.
 
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Bingo. The evangelical Catholics are not fans of the current pope. They are not into his progressive policies and certainly do not appreciate his attention to the poor. This line of Catholics have the exact same political views as the far right evangelicals.

Yep, the evangelical idiots need to get the boot since what they want doesn't match the Catechism (or The Bible) at all. The actual Catechism is in line with what Pope Francis preaches, more European Socialist on most issues beyond abortion/LBGT/marriage.

I can understand the traditionalist Catholics' position a little more, but it's hard to drill down "what year" we should be rolling back to depending on the group there.
 
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I am not a cradle catholic. But what I have witnessed recently in the church was an open and accepting environment which I felt was great. However, we do on occasion get the priest giving a vailed political critique of current issues. For example, a priest homilie was based on the separation of families business on the border. He spoke of “Washington” loosing a “morale compass” that was found by a fisherman.... it was spinning in circles unable to point in any direction. ..... I do have an email in to the Perish asking if it wasn’t our compass that was missing.... the Pope has a real problem with optics on this. I like the position on homosexuality and all the trans and other designations that the church appears to have opened on. Things like this Cardinal interview is very telling I believe about the left leaning of the church spoken about above. He says in the interview A higher agenda of environment and immigration is more important than sexual abuse. This is a problem.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...cardinal-mccarrick-allegations-491926591.html
Hack, I'm not sure that I follow you on this one. On one hand seem to be saying that you like the way the church has opened up on some of the social issues that seem to be constant ones - homosexuality, trans, etc. - but then on the other hand you seem to take exception to the church's stance on immigration and the environment.

I get that you can agree with the church on some issues and not on others . . . is that the way I am to read your post?

If your post was intended to support in full the "conservative" or the "liberal" factions in the church, I didn't get that.

Am I reading what you intended to say?

TIA
 
Hack, I'm not sure that I follow you on this one. On one hand seem to be saying that you like the way the church has opened up on some of the social issues that seem to be constant ones - homosexuality, trans, etc. - but then on the other hand you seem to take exception to the church's stance on immigration and the environment.

I get that you can agree with the church on some issues and not on others . . . is that the way I am to read your post?

If your post was intended to support in full the "conservative" or the "liberal" factions in the church, I didn't get that.

Am I reading what you intended to say?

TIA
Sorry.... what I’m saying is from a Christian/Church standpoint, everyone should be welcome without judgement to worship if that is their desire. We had a gay couple in front of the Mass two weeks ago having their adopted child christened. How can you be upset with something like that? Why would you want to deprive a child of that let alone the parents? That is my stance. I don’t have a problem with it and my father was a 30 plus year fire and brimstone preacher. The Sherwood Oaks in Bloomington? My dad moved it to Sherwood Oaks after it burnt in downtown Bloomington (the church we built also burned before the mega church now there).

I don’t like pontifications on the climate or immigration when you have zero chance to rebut. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. You gotta follow the laws of the country and I don’t like having it preached at me when I am there to get a message to carry me through the week. That is why I guess they have a M, W, F, mass.
 
This is purely anecdotal, but of the cross section of Catholics who consider themselves conservatives, Pope Francis has sort of been in their crosshairs since early on in his papacy. His 'liberal' stances haven't sat well with many of them and you could almost see how they couldn't compute or reconcile fundamentally disagreeing with the Pope while also holding the papacy in the highest regard.

I can only imagine now that this new cycle probably gives those folks' inner conflict some legitimacy, which kind of sucks. I think it'd be really bad for the church overall for its pendulum to swing too far to the conservative side at this point.

I'm also not certain that the church allowing women to be priests and to take more leadership roles within the church is the magic wand that would magically fix all the church's ills, but I'm 100% for it.
Part of it could be the way Poop Francis drones on about open boarders while he lives in a heavily fortified, walled city.
Wait. Are you the one lecturing me on Christianity and hating Trump? And this is your comment on the pope? Lol. Got it.
 
My guess is that the reactionary's political and media assault on Pope Francis is purely a power play to reassert the traditional Catholic positions regarding "moral" issues, such as divorce, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage and the like, while at the same time unloading the traditionalists' own fault in the Catholic Church's pedophilia scandals onto the Pope to serve their political agenda and their avoidance of their own responsibilities. Classic reactionary tactics . . . .
I think you are exactly right. This is why they are stressing that the Church has a gay problem, rather than an abuse problem. They are using the scandal to push their conservative agenda, and I think you are correct to note that it does (or will) extend beyond abuse. Divorce and sex, as you mention, obviously. I also think this is something of a structural attack. Especially here in America, conservative Catholics are pushing hard for a laity-led investigation of the bishops. One might simply chalk that up to a naturally American tendency for support of grass-roots democratization, but I think it's more strategic than that. I think it's a purposeful assault on the church hierarchy, similar to what the various 20th century schismatics did post-Vatican II.
 
That's a confusing article . . . did Pope Francis fire Vigano from an ambassadorship or not? Seems to me that's what the article says . . . .
That part of the article is confusing. I imagine there may be something lost in translation. In real life, Vigano submitted his resignation upon turning 75, as he is required to do. The Pope immediately accepted his resignation, which he is not required to do. It is fairly common for the Pope to simply not act on a resignation for years, to allow someone to serve past the mandatory retirement age. In Vigano's case, Francis decided to act.
 
I really don't think you understand what's going on, in either the church, or the media.
In the end, the media will throw the victims under the bus and work to discredit all allegations. Why? Because the predators are sexually active male homosexuals, a holy class in most newsrooms. And the victims are straight males.
 
In the end, the media will throw the victims under the bus and work to discredit all allegations. Why? Because the predators are sexually active male homosexuals, a holy class in most newsrooms. And the victims are straight males.
This resentment of gay people is a nice bookend for your white racial grievance. I'm waiting for the War on Christmas posts that would show you as an embattled Christian.
 
In the end, the media will throw the victims under the bus and work to discredit all allegations. Why? Because the predators are sexually active male homosexuals, a holy class in most newsrooms. And the victims are straight males.
The film SPOTLIGHT didn't get ignored. Quite the contrary.
 
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