I respect your nuanced take but I think you're missing a bit of Aloha's position. Think of it this way, there's a continuum from infinite disrespect to infinite respect with zero in the middle. Aloha's position is that kneeling is less disrespectful than sitting but still on the disrespectful side of zero. My position is that when Kaep went from sitting to kneeling after talking to that military guy, he was consciously and deliberately trying to position himself on the respectful side of the continuum. If you look at pictures of him kneeling, you see someone being respectful in that moment. I think anyone who looks at such a picture and thinks otherwise is wearing blinders.
People are actually burning Nike shoes and apparel...
- Thread starter Ohio Guy
- Start date
We can respectfully disagree. I think he's on the disrespectful side of the continuum too and I think he had to be for the protest to be effective. I would agree that it's less disrespectful than sitting for sure. I could go with calling it respectfully disrespectful.
I think Kaep did the right thing when he did it and it helped the cause by bringing attention to it. Now I'm not as certain that doing it helps so it could be time to move on to something else.Kaep was one of my favorite players and I would like to see him play again.
"Nike's stock is up since Kaepernick revealed the ad. The company's sales online jumped 31% after it was released, according to one analysis by digital research firm Edison Trends.
Earlier this week, one investment analyst called the ad a 'stroke of genius.'"
https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/13/ne...do-it-national-anthem-nfl-football/index.html
Earlier this week, one investment analyst called the ad a 'stroke of genius.'"
https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/13/ne...do-it-national-anthem-nfl-football/index.html
Yeah, comparing me to Trump is pretty low!
You got my position pretty much exactly. Glad someone read my posts.
I agree Kaepernick is good enough to be at least a backup in the NFL. Don’t know which starters I’d bench for him. He wasn’t starter good his last season or two. I honestly wouldn’t want him on my team because of the distractions that would come with it.
Are you going to regurgitate the same analysis daily?
I can't tell from your post if you're aware of it or not, but "Know Your Rights" is one of the main beneficiaries of the $ MILLION+ that Kap's foundation has donated to causes he founded or supports. In fact, he announced on Monday that he would donate 20% of the proceeds from the sales of his "I'm with Kap" jerseys specifically to Know Your Rights. But when the jerseys sold out within a few hours he announced he would donate 100% of sales to KYR...
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...h-kaep-jerseys-sell-out-less-than-a-day-after
Since you've apologized for this mistake, Let's move on to a broader issue. And an open question to the RATIONAL members of the board who take issue with (mainly) Black NFL players kneeling/sitting during the NA at sporting events...
Do you have issues with members of groups like the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses etc who display similar conduct when the NA is played, Pledge is recited, Flag is displayed etc...? Not all react uniformly, but to varying degrees members of those groups behave in a non-traditional manner to events the majority would describe as "patriotic". Do you have issues with that, and if not Why?
Basically what am I missing? Eight million Jehovah's Witnesses don't salute the flag; 200,000 Amish don't stand for the National Anthem. Some Quakers don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Black NFL players kneel respectfully and all hell breaks loose.
Tell me why this isn't (at least subconsciously) a racial issue?
I don't think what we've got here is failure to communicate.Yeah, comparing me to Trump is pretty low!
You got my position pretty much exactly. Glad someone read my posts.
I agree Kaepernick is good enough to be at least a backup in the NFL. Don’t know which starters I’d bench for him. He wasn’t starter good his last season or two. I honestly wouldn’t want him on my team because of the distractions that would come with it.
I think you and I are polar opposites in one respect. You spent your adult life within the confines of discipline and regimentation whereas I've lived mine almost entirely outside the box. Nothing wrong with that, both make America rich. My grandfather never wore a uniform but as an inventor he was one more essential part to the WWII effort. Inventors absolutely must think outside the box. I couldn't care less about who initially agrees with my point of view and I don't expect that. That's the nature of outside the box. Conformity's understandably important to you because of your career, so you bring that up as an argument (no one else agrees with me...) in our discussion.
MrBing described it better than both of us, especially with his respectful disrespect. I still don't see it that way, but I see that you two do. I just don't value the tradition that you two do. I value the intent. Kaep's intent was not to disrespect the Anthem but to call attention to a horrific catastrophe occurring daily in the US that wasn't getting enough attention. I'm able to look at things from multiple points of view because that's precisely what's required to survive in outside-the-box professions.
Geezers don't like kneeling but young people do.
a Quinnipiac University poll showed voters approved of Nike’s decision to feature Kaepernick in its latest ad campaign by a 49-37 split. The poll also found a distinct age gap, with those 18-34 approving of Nike’s decision by a 67-21 margin, while voters 65 and older disapproved of the decision, 46-39 percent.
A separate SSRS Omnibus poll provided to CNN found a similar age divide: Among Americans ages 18 to 34, 44 percent approved of Nike’s decision while 32 percent opposed. That poll also found 47 percent of adults 65 and over disapproved, while 26 percent supported Nike’s decision.
A separate SSRS Omnibus poll provided to CNN found a similar age divide: Among Americans ages 18 to 34, 44 percent approved of Nike’s decision while 32 percent opposed. That poll also found 47 percent of adults 65 and over disapproved, while 26 percent supported Nike’s decision.
You too!You old!
Geezers don't like kneeling but young people do.
a Quinnipiac University poll showed voters approved of Nike’s decision to feature Kaepernick in its latest ad campaign by a 49-37 split. The poll also found a distinct age gap, with those 18-34 approving of Nike’s decision by a 67-21 margin, while voters 65 and older disapproved of the decision, 46-39 percent.You too!
A separate SSRS Omnibus poll provided to CNN found a similar age divide: Among Americans ages 18 to 34, 44 percent approved of Nike’s decision while 32 percent opposed. That poll also found 47 percent of adults 65 and over disapproved, while 26 percent supported Nike’s decision.
Remember that Mayor in Kenner Louisiana who "banned" Nike in his city's purchasing of athletic gear? Turns out that even in the District that has the dubious distinction of electing David Duke, that was viewed as "over the line"...
Mayor’s Nike ban drew widespread ridicule
Zahn’s announcement came on the heels of local and national ridicule for the ban that drew legal and political criticism. Residents protested the ban, accusing the mayor of “dividing us.”
The ACLU challenged the ban as a First Amendment violation while city councilman Mike Sigur argued that it broke a state law that forbids outlawing a specific brand.
“We’re pleased the mayor reconsidered his divisive stance and rescinded this unconstitutional policy,” Louisiana ACLU official Alanah Odoms Hebert told The Times Picayune. “The reversal of this ban is good news for the people of Kenner and all Louisianians who have a constitutional right to express their political views free from government censorship or discrimination.”
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mayor-...utcry-bring-city-back-together-014152881.html
That article doesn’t say they respect, admire, or even like kneeling during the National Anthem. They just like Kaepernick being in an ad.Geezers don't like kneeling but young people do.
a Quinnipiac University poll showed voters approved of Nike’s decision to feature Kaepernick in its latest ad campaign by a 49-37 split. The poll also found a distinct age gap, with those 18-34 approving of Nike’s decision by a 67-21 margin, while voters 65 and older disapproved of the decision, 46-39 percent.You too!
A separate SSRS Omnibus poll provided to CNN found a similar age divide: Among Americans ages 18 to 34, 44 percent approved of Nike’s decision while 32 percent opposed. That poll also found 47 percent of adults 65 and over disapproved, while 26 percent supported Nike’s decision.
The guy caused a stir by disrespecting the standard protocol for the Anthem to draw attention to his cause. He succeeded and good for him. I’m trying to figure out why it’s so important to you that what he did be seen as respectful. It just isn’t, and you can’t make it respectful just by claiming it was, over, and over, and over again.
I’m trying to understand how to get you to understand at least one other point of view in the world. Hopeless cause?
It’s interesting how you bemoan me not understanding your pov. Then again, it fits perfectly.
Actually, I understand your POV. Apparently, you don’t understand disagreement in opinions. You also don’t understand that the majority of Americans legitimately disagree with your POV that kneeling during the Anthem is somehow respectful - and a lot of those same Americans are sympathetic to Kaepernick’s issue, as I am.
Ask Kaepernick this question:
Is kneeling during the playing of the National Anthem meant to show respect for the Anthem, flag, and the United States?
If he answers “yes” than his protest makes no sense at all.
If you understood my pov then you would’t post a lie like this:
So either you don’t get my pov or you’re lying. Which is it?
It’s my opinion, based on your posts, that it is very important to you that Kaepernick’s protest be seen as respectful by others, so I asked why it is so important to you. I think that was a very honest question.
Herein lies your confusion. You’re conflating disrespecting the Anthem with disrespecting your tradition. That’s really the essence of the outrage toward Kaep. People are butthurt that he won’t abide by their tradition. They know he’s kneeling respectfully because they can see that but they’ll be god-damned if some young punk is going to disrespect their tradition.
Often what happens on forums is people don’t get understood so they keep trying to get their point across. That doesn’t necessarily mean the point is especially important.
Until you see that you’re conflating the the Anthem with the tradition of standing, you won’t get my point and imo you won’t understand the entire situation. MrBing got the difference iiuc.
This is the only reason I’m in this conversation - you think anyone that believes his actions during the Anthem is direspecful to the Anthem, flag and country has an illegitimate POV. You’ve said this in several different ways with your “butthurt” and “young punk” snark included. I think it’s clearly legitimate and a majority of Amerucans, to your chagrin apparently, do as well. Personally, I think it’s disrespectful, but if he wanted to do that to draw attention to his cause, it’s OK with me. It’s also OK with me that people dislike it and that some people think it’s super cool. What’s not OK with me is you’re contention that those that find the act itself disrespectful are just “butthurt” or racist or just stupid. That’s just you passing your judgment on them.
This thread is about burning Nike apparel. You’re telling me that’s not butthurt? Lol. Why not donate it to the Salvation Army? A lot of people could use the clothes.
That aside, you’re misunderstanding me again. Completely and utterly. Willfully? You haven’t responded to your conflation of Anthem and the tradition of standing. Separating the two is essential to this discussion. It’s not a question of illegitimacy of pov. If someone is offended because another violates tradition, then that’s what they’re offended about. The meaning of the Anthem is independent of HOW I show respect for the Anthem. Conflating respect for the Anthem with how respect for the Anthem is shown is a mistake. I can respect the Anthem more than you but refuse to abide by your tradition for how to show that respect. I can protest your tradition despite my basic respect for the Anthem and all it stands for because to me you clearly don’t respect all it stands for and if that’s the case, I’m not about to fall in lockstep with your lip-service tradition. What the Founding Fathers created is far bigger than robotic adherence to an arbitrary ceremonial tradition that only has meaning if people walk the walk.
They go hand in hand and that’s why people legitimately believe Kaepernick’s protest is meant to be disrespectful to the Anthem, flag and country. You never answer the question about how Kaepernick’s protest could possibly have any meaning if he was only showing respect in a different way.
I'm not old yet. I think I'm one of the young guys here but maybe not for a lot longer because time is flying.Geezers don't like kneeling but young people do.
a Quinnipiac University poll showed voters approved of Nike’s decision to feature Kaepernick in its latest ad campaign by a 49-37 split. The poll also found a distinct age gap, with those 18-34 approving of Nike’s decision by a 67-21 margin, while voters 65 and older disapproved of the decision, 46-39 percent.You too!
A separate SSRS Omnibus poll provided to CNN found a similar age divide: Among Americans ages 18 to 34, 44 percent approved of Nike’s decision while 32 percent opposed. That poll also found 47 percent of adults 65 and over disapproved, while 26 percent supported Nike’s decision.
They don’t go hand in hand at all. That’s an arbitrary conflation that demonstrates your (or somebody’s) basic disrespect for Kaepernick’s respect for America. You’re assuming he disrespects the Anthem, the Flag, the military, just because he has a beef with your tradition. You don’t like him associating your tradition with blue-on-black injustices.
His protest has all the more meaning when you realize he’s not protesting the Anthem but rather the tradition that pretends all is normal.
I think I understand Aloha's position and I think mine is close to his. The difference might be that I still liked and admired Kaep's protest at the time even while thinking he was disrespecting the tradition, anthem and the USA. I think that was Kaep's point because he couldn't be totally respectful during that anthem while the USA has the problem of cops killing POC disproportionately. Aloha gets the protest but I think he just tolerated it while not really liking it or admiring Kaep's form of protest. I could be wrong but that's how I read his posts.
Not all of us in the Air Force is a pilot or fly a lot.
That’s close enough. I’m out of this thread now. I’ll be driving for the next couple of hours anyway.
What does the Anthem stand for? To me it stands for the Ideal America, however one envisions that. Do you believe Kaep doesn’t stand for that or isn’t striving for us to attain that?
Do you see how that has nothing to do with standing or kneeling?
It stands for our country and our country has some flaws like every country. Kaep was bringing some focus on one of the flaws. If he was standing he wouldn't have done that so I think it has a lot to do with standing or kneeling.
You’d make a great politician. Does the Anthem stand for the flaws or not?It stands for our country and our country has some flaws like every country. Kaep was bringing some focus on one of the flaws. If he was standing he wouldn't have done that so I think it has a lot to do with standing or kneeling.
Didn't I just answer that? It stands for our country and our country has flaws. No country is perfect but it's the best one we got.
Of course it can be better too.If the Anthem stands for the flaws, then they’re not flaws. They’re the the way things should be. Something doesn’t stand for something that’s wrong or needs to be fixed.Didn't I just answer that? It stands for our country and our country has flaws. No country is perfect but it's the best one we got.
The Anthem stands for the ideals, the American Dream, the beacon on the hill, freedom, the Constitution, and the like. The Anthem does not stand for slavery and never did, even though the majority of white southerners stood for slavery. (Aloha loves that majority argument.)
Another way to look at it. Aloha’s logic in a nutshell is this:
Kaep: I respect the military, the Flag, the country, and the Anthem.
Aloha: Then you have to stand for the Anthem.
Kaep: I respect the military, the Flag, the country, and the Anthem.
Aloha: Then you have to stand for the Anthem.
I'm not sure why we're arguing about this. I'm saying that the anthem stands for our country and our country has flaws. You have an idealistic view of it which seems to mean that we should not stand for our anthem while the country has flaws. Doesn't that also mean we'll never stand for the anthem?
I'm not going to argue for Aloha but I will say I totally get his position and I'm having trouble understanding yours. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get it. I think I'll leave with what we both agree with and that is that Kaep had an effective protest that brought focus to an important issue. I'm done with the rest of it and I'll be moving on to something else like football and basketball. IU football has a must win game against BSU this weekend.
We can respectfully disagree. I think he's on the disrespectful side of the continuum too and I think he had to be for the protest to be effective. I would agree that it's less disrespectful than sitting for sure. I could go with calling it respectfully disrespectful.
Kaep was one of my favorite players and I would like to see him play again.
Appreciate your thoughtful perspective on this, Bing. It's made me think about the issue in more depth.
Was wondering...do you think that Tommie Smith and John Carlos were disrespecting the flag and anthem with their black-gloved fist during the Mexico City Olympics? That certainly breaks from tradition with flag and anthem observance norms, but I don't see it as disrespecting either. As with Kaep, I see it as making a political point while silently observing the flag and anthem. Smith and Carlos used the moment to put focus on human rights issues they felt strongly about while still paying respect to the nation (they were competing for their nation after all.) As such, I struggle to see how Kaep's (and other NFL players') quiet break from norms is disrespectful. IMHO, it is quietly showing love for our nation while acknowledging the imperfections that we strive to improve upon. For me, that is the height of honoring what our flag and anthem represent.
No, Bing, you’re a highly articulate person and a voice of reason here. Obviously I’ve failed to communicate. I probably should made a sarcastic joke at the outset, like, if a hundred million Americans have the tradition of showing their respect for the Anthem by picking their noses on Wednesdays, am I disrespectful if I blow mine on Tuesdays?I'm not sure why we're arguing about this. I'm saying that the anthem stands for our country and our country has flaws. You have an idealistic view of it which seems to mean that we should not stand for our anthem while the country has flaws. Doesn't that also mean we'll never stand for the anthem?
I'm not going to argue for Aloha but I will say I totally get his position and I'm having trouble understanding yours. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get it. I think I'll leave with what we both agree with and that is that Kaep had an effective protest that brought focus to an important issue. I'm done with the rest of it and I'll be moving on to something else like football and basketball. IU football has a must win game against BSU this weekend.
Go IU!!! Critical game for bowl hopes
I'm clean and articulate!
Have a good weekend. I'm taking the family to see the game. I'm out of here!
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
What the hell are schools supposed to do to stop the war in Gaza- Latest: CO. Hoosier
-