It’s just words…every single individual that I have filled prescriptions for that have been accompanied with a gender identity disorder diagnosis, the prescriptions have been paid for by the taxpayers.
Nonbinary babies? Let's have another fight!
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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Galileo's Middle Finger is a great book that covers this and the SJW backlash to the author on other areas. Really interesting description of some battles between idealogues and scientists:
Galileo's Middle Finger - Wikipedia
If you ever hear Alice Dreger, the author, speak I think you'll find her very admirable.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
The mob is shameful. Or shameless. I don’t know the difference.Galileo's Middle Finger is a great book that covers this and the SJW backlash to the author on other areas. Really interesting description of some battles between idealogues and scientists:
Galileo's Middle Finger - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
If you ever hear Alice Dreger, the author, speak I think you'll find her very admirable.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I don't know that that definition is any more subjective or squishy than any other definition in the DSM V. I also don't think it is that difficult to figure out if a kid has gender dysphoria or not.
The question is, what do you do about it? I'm not as averse to societal prohibitions on some treatments for minors as Marv and Goat. For example, I think it perfectly fine for a state to pass a law forbidding conversion therapy for teenagers who identify as gay:
Movement Advancement Project | Conversion "Therapy" Laws
This map outlines state and local bans on conversion
www.lgbtmap.org
I don't know that that definition is any more subjective or squishy than any other definition in the DSM V. I also don't think it is that difficult to figure out if a kid has gender dysphoria or not.
The question is, what do you do about it? I'm not as averse to societal prohibitions on some treatments for minors as Marv and Goat. For example, I think it perfectly fine for a state to pass a law forbidding conversion therapy for teenagers who identify as gay:
Movement Advancement Project | Conversion "Therapy" Laws
This map outlines state and local bans on conversion
For me, If a psychiatrist said conversion therapy would help a child, then sure. But like the procedures we have been talking about, I would want them to be as few as possible.
And if psychiatrists play fast and loose, losing their license and lawsuits should be deterrents.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
Posted without commentI don't know that that definition is any more subjective or squishy than any other definition in the DSM V. I also don't think it is that difficult to figure out if a kid has gender dysphoria or not.
The question is, what do you do about it? I'm not as averse to societal prohibitions on some treatments for minors as Marv and Goat. For example, I think it perfectly fine for a state to pass a law forbidding conversion therapy for teenagers who identify as gay:
Movement Advancement Project | Conversion "Therapy" Laws
This map outlines state and local bans on conversion
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I would assume they would use ultrasound or something to try to detect fully developed gonads. Genes are the root cause, but I'd imagine hormones rule when it comes to development.
A few things.I don't know that that definition is any more subjective or squishy than any other definition in the DSM V. I also don't think it is that difficult to figure out if a kid has gender dysphoria or not.
The question is, what do you do about it? I'm not as averse to societal prohibitions on some treatments for minors as Marv and Goat. For example, I think it perfectly fine for a state to pass a law forbidding conversion therapy for teenagers who identify as gay:
Movement Advancement Project | Conversion "Therapy" Laws
This map outlines state and local bans on conversion
First, we are talking about kids. The state has an interest as I mentioned above. Life altering treatments based on subjective findings must be taken with extraordinary care. The political/social environment makes treatment subject to politics and social forces.
Second, the problem with conversion therapy bans is that the ban assumes the claim of sexual dysphoria is legit. It could be attention-getting. Again, we are talking about kids. Kids act out in dozens of ways including promiscuity, violence, self harm, and sexual identity. Banning conversion therapy for kids takes full therapy options off the table.
Finally, the fact that there is a DSM diagnosis for gender dysphoria suggests gender dysphoria is an emotional/mental condition. (But being gay isn’t?) There are objective measures to determine sex which the DSM deliberately ignores by ignoring sex and suggesting gender is “assigned”. The only treatment regimen for gender dysphoria is to “support” the kid with his dysphoria. That isn’t the treatment for a promiscuous or a violent kid. Again, I’d love to examine any expert who denies sex is immutable while believing gender confusion depends on subjective DSM criteria.
Theis whoe subject is screwed up. It is screwed up because of politics.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I think you're conflating sex and gender as used in the DSM V.
Sex–gender distinction - Wikipedia
Of course, gender dysphoria is a mental condition. You should agree with that. The very definition makes clear that the person has a defined sex (determined by biology), but a mental condition that makes them uncomfortable with the gender typically assigned to that sex and that makes them identify with the opposite gender. Quite frankly, I don't even know what the far-left trans-activists think about this distinction--I think some argue that sex is not even a real thing (which is inane).
As for support, that is a universal psychiatric goal for all patients, including those with violent tendencies, schizophrenia, etc. It sounds like you are suggesting they should also seek to eliminate the gender dysphoria. I'm not sure that is possible or the history of attempts to end it.
Regarding your question about sexual attraction, as I understand it, all of our sexual attractions are affected by biology and psychology, with our psychology a result of both our genes and biology and external environmental factors.
Regarding conversion therapy, it can cause harm. For all the reasons you state about risk of harm, misdiagnosis, age of the patient w/r/t hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery (which I agree with), I find it a better idea to take that off the table for children:
What does the scholarly research say about whether conversion therapy can alter sexual orientation without causing harm? | What We Know
Overview: We identified 47 peer-reviewed studies that that met our criteria for adding to knowledge about whether conversion therapy (CT) can alter sexual orientation without causing harm. Thirteen of those studies included primary research. Of those, 12 concluded that CT is ineffective and/or...
whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu
I’m really not confusing the two. The DSM speaks of dysphoria from the assigned gender. But the assignment is sex, which isn’t assigned, it’s a given. The dysphoria is feelings inconsistent with sex.I think you're conflating sex and gender as used in the DSM V.
Sex–gender distinction - Wikipedia
Of course, gender dysphoria is a mental condition. You should agree with that. The very definition makes clear that the person has a defined sex (determined by biology), but a mental condition that makes them uncomfortable with the gender typically assigned to that sex and that makes them identify with the opposite gender. Quite frankly, I don't even know what the far-left trans-activists think about this distinction--I think some argue that sex is not even a real thing (which is inane).
As for support, that is a universal psychiatric goal for all patients, including those with violent tendencies, schizophrenia, etc. It sounds like you are suggesting they should also seek to eliminate the gender dysphoria. I'm not sure that is possible or the history of attempts to end it.
Regarding your question about sexual attraction, as I understand it, all of our sexual attractions are affected by biology and psychology, with our psychology a result of both our genes and biology and external environmental factors.
Regarding conversion therapy, it can cause harm. For all the reasons you state about risk of harm, misdiagnosis, age of the patient w/r/t hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery (which I agree with), I find it a better idea to take that off the table for children:
What does the scholarly research say about whether conversion therapy can alter sexual orientation without causing harm? | What We Know
Overview: We identified 47 peer-reviewed studies that that met our criteria for adding to knowledge about whether conversion therapy (CT) can alter sexual orientation without causing harm. Thirteen of those studies included primary research. Of those, 12 concluded that CT is ineffective and/or...
You seem to be hanging on my every word and yet missed this one...
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
It does but I think we all agree the gender assigned is based on the biological sex.
I don’t think gender is ever assigned at birth. The role culture might play in imposing gender evolves as the kid develops.
Have you read about Johnny the Walrus? A kids book that pokes fun of the gender follies with kids. The book is smashing sales on Amazon and the liberals are going nucking futs over it.
Amazon product ASIN 1956007059
Having a trans child is like having a vegan cat. We all know who is making that call.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I'm not sure how you're defining trans there but I don't think there are a lot of parents who affirmatively want their child to be trans.
Each of my kids has a girl in his and her grade that is clearly some form of trans. The one in my daughter's grade (8th) has been that way since she was in 2nd grade at least. Dresses like a boy, haircut like a boy, etc. Likes to play sports. I used to think she was a boy until I met her and her parents (that was embarrassing). She has other issues and the family is strange, but I dont think they pushed her into it. In fact, it's clear they have a lot of fears and anxiety about it.
The younger one in my son's grade changed her name to a boy's, started dressing like a boy, hair cut, etc. and now essentially tries to be a boy. She started this in 5th grade. While her parents are rich and pretty liberal, I think, I'm not sure they made her be trans at age 10 or 11. From what I hear, the girl was really pushing for it--so while their liberality might have made them more open to accepting it, I dont think they wanted that for their daughter.
My kids' elementary school spends a lot of time normalizing this stuff, so I think that made it easier for the 2nd one to do this.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
This brings up another issue that Marv and Goat might clarify:
You both say we should rely on experts. But which ones? The surgeons who will perform these surgeries aren't experts about whether they should be done or not on children, just that they can be done.
Regarding the psychologists, what happens if they are, in fact, blinded by ideology and think that biological sex is a myth and that male and female are only about socially constructed gender? Do you accept that? If psychology as a discipline disagrees with biology as a discipline, what are we to do?
Alternatively, what if there is no consensus among psychologists?
Girls who cut their hair short, wear blue jeans, and play sports are not necessarily trans.
yep. the DSM says that boys who dress and act like girls is evidence of gender dysphoria. But no mention of girls who dress and act like boys.
Good point. I don’t trust expert opinion like many here do. I think that is a product of being a lawyer.
Psychologists are especially troublesome. I once defended a case where I had pretty good evidence that the plaintiff was malingering. I deposed her expert shrink and took a real deep dive into the objective of her counseling and therapy. The shrink saw her role as supporting her patient. That of course played right into malingering. My expert said the other was full of it and the point of therapy was to bring the patient to normal and that sometimes meant confronting the patient. . I thought of that example when I read the DSM suggested treatment of child transgenderism as one of support. Of course there is the issue of what is normal.
I don’t understand why parents simply don’t say no. That’s what baffles me. I certainly would. If they still want to do these things as an adult, so be it. But kids minds are screwed up the way it is. Don’t confuse this more. I would love to see statistically where trans and such lays out with regards to race, income, education, political affiliation, etc. I have to imagine most of these kids are coming from richer, more educated, liberal households.
I was just reading where 50% of adults who identify as this have major mental health issues. Is this really a gender issue or mental health issue
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I would think there are a myriad of other things that could make one happy besides changing genders. It just opens up so many more doors for even more mental issues/stress. At the end of the day, I don’t think gender causes anyone to be happy or sad. There are literally hundreds of other avenues to correct your mental health and something way down deep and internal that needs unlocked.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
Parents don't just say no because there are very high incidents of suicide associated with gender dysphoria. If your child's therapist tells you its hormone blockers or else you child will attempt suicide, most parents are going to opt for the hormone blockers.
I’m talking small children up to younger elementary. Nip it in the bud. At least try. If you tell a 3 year old something like that is ok, they’re freaking 3. They won’t stop. It becomes normal.
While I definitely support relying on experts whenever genuine expertise exists, I'm not sure that's an accurate way to describe my argument in this thread, and I don't know how to answer your question.
I think the best care for gender dysphoria, like any issue that requires some level of mental or psychological treatment, should be individualized. What's best for this patient? Don't worry about culture or society. I don't care if x number of people think hormone blockers are wrong; if they are the best treatment for the patient, use them. I don't care if y number of people think we should affirm all gender identities; if the best treatment for the patient is to ground their psyche in their biological sex, do that.
No. These are extremely privileged problems to have as a society. We just need more moderate, measured politicians to turn down the volume on the insanity. Not a huge policy fan of Obama but his tenor and demeanor are what the country needs. Ze is out there somewhere
The standards of medical expertise is the community standard of care.. Given today’s access to material, the relevant community is usually national. While there is room for professional judgment, the range of choices must be based on community standards.
If I were POTUS, I would issue a national mandate that the entire country go on Xanax for 6 months. Maybe a double dose for members of congress and bureaucrats and triple dose for talk show hosts. That will tamp down almost every political and social problem. We might stop yelling at each other.
Science has advanced in many areas, but in my view the experts know very little about what causes any mental disorder or how drugs sometimes help patients get better.
A hundred years from now experts in areas such as the brain, its chemistry, and drugs used for mental illness will look back and consider today's experts to have been in the dark ages.
Could go into this further, but don't want to be late for my lobotomy appointment.
People are stressed and at odds with everything and everybody. Covid, climate change, race, economy, loneliness, domestic violence, addictions are all symptoms and causes. Part of it i think comes from our political system which is now geared to keep people stirred up, afraid, and angry at others. Another part is our educational system designed for hugs and attaboys instead of discipline and learning. Another part is a breakdown of families that should be the source of love and support, but isn’t. We don’t have coping skills.
We have system-wide dysfunction in many respects. We seem to want that as we push crt and gender issues on 5-9year olds, our politicians find new ways to make us afraid and angry at those who don’t agree, and we tell ourselves that more government services really mean stronger families.
We have a lot of work to do on all fronts.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I'm not sure this goes on with 3 year olds. I don't know, though.
I am loath to blame parents for mental illness in their children.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
Our national media is absolutely part of the problem as well, along with most forms of social media. MSNBC, CNN, FOX, NYT, Post, Facebook, Twitter...the list goes on and on. Oh, and don't forget the moneyed interests. They might be the biggest boogeyman of them all.
