Nonbinary babies? Let's have another fight!

[CO. Hoosier]

It could be harmful, sure, but it might also be harmful to withhold such treatments, is my point. Neither you nor I have the kind of training to make those sorts of judgments. I think you're implicitly saying the same thing, but I just wanted to make it extra clear.

If we're on the same page on that point, then we are also on the same page re: encouraging. If your concern about normalizing gender dysphoria is that it pushes people toward one of different sets of treatment options by necessarily discouraging the one perceived as not as "accepting," then I agree. The particular treatment for any individual going through these issues should be determined based on what's best for that individual, not based on what society currently thinks should be most acceptable.

We keep quacks out of the medical delivery system for good reasons. Many qualified mental health professionals don’t believe there can be gender dysphoria for prepubescent individuals. But those people are shouted down if not cancelled. Some states are considering professional sanctions for those who oppose it. I read the DSM V about gender dysphoria and it is a useless guide. The factors are almost 100% subjective. That’s no basis for life altering treatment for kids. Moreover the DSM doesn’t speak about prepubescents in terms of treatment. This is far from clear cut.

When you suggest we should treat prepubescents for gender dysphoria what are you talking about? Body altering hormones? Body altering surgery? What?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

We keep quacks out of the medical delivery system for good reasons. Many qualified mental health professionals don’t believe there can be gender dysphoria for prepubescent individuals. But those people are shouted down if not cancelled. Some states are considering profession sanctions for those who oppose it. I read the DSM V about gender dysphoria and it is a useless guide. The factors are almost 100% subjective. That’s no basis for life altering treatment for kids. Moreover the DSM doesn’t speak about prepubescents in terms of treatment. This is far from clear cut.

When you suggest we should treat prepubescents for gender dysphoria what are you talking about? Body altering hormones? Body altering surgery? What?

I thought he was suggesting talk therapy by a trained mental-health worker.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ok, that's helpful. No, I didn't mean to say that. I fully admit everyone, including me, probably bases their personal identity in some part on a false belief. I don't think that, in and of itself, qualifies as harmful or even a mental illness.

I think that if you encouraged someone to maintain a "fictosexual" persona, though, that would be harmful. I also think that enabling children to get hormone blockers or physical surgery to comfort their gender dysphoria could be harmful and crossing the line between comforting and encouraging harm.

These are impossibly complex and individualized issues, obviously, but worth thinking about (even if they don't affect me!).

The problem is that the diagnostic standards are not objective. That might be okay for an adult. If a competent adult wants to cut off body parts in order to feel better, I guess who cares? But we have always taken a parens patriae attitude towards kids and adults with mental disabilities. So the state has a definite role to play. Those states which severely limit applying gender dysphoria to prepubescents are on the right track. I suppose there would be cases where there really is an issue, but I would have state or court appointed experts weigh in at that time. We protect kids from neglect that might be nothing more than “failure to thrive.” The public definitely has an interest.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The problem is that the diagnostic standards are not objective. That might be okay for an adult. If a competent adult wants to cut off body parts in order to feel better, I guess who cares? But we have always taken a parens patriae attitude towards kids and adults with mental disabilities. So the state has a definite role to play. Those states which severely limit applying gender dysphoria to prepubescents are on the right track. I suppose there would be cases where there really is an issue, but I would have state or court appointed experts weigh in at that time. We protect kids from neglect that might be nothing more than “failure to thrive.” The public definitely has an interest.

So if a parent teaches racism to their child, should we remove the child? The public has an interest.

 

[Circlejoe]

We keep quacks out of the medical delivery system for good reasons.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

When you suggest we should treat prepubescents for gender dysphoria what are you talking about? Body altering hormones? Body altering surgery? What?

I didn't suggest that at all.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I thought he was suggesting talk therapy by a trained mental-health worker.

For who? Adults? Post pubescent teens? Prepubescent youngsters? The diagnostic standards simply are not definite enough to get into anything but generalized child psychology.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I thought he was suggesting talk therapy by a trained mental-health worker.

I'm not suggesting anything specific. Just saying I think whatever the treatment options are, they should be individualized, and not limited to what any subset of us consider to be culturally more palatable.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I didn't suggest that at all.

Just stop it goat. If I got your therapy wrong, which I might, clear it up. Or are you just going to hang general meaningless comments out there with no follow up?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm not suggesting anything specific. Just saying I think whatever the treatment options are, they should be individualized, and not limited to what any subset of us consider to be culturally more palatable.

Blah blah blah. Say something.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

So if a parent teaches racism to their child, should we remove the child? The public has an interest.

Substitute X for racism and ask if there is any X that would justify removing the child.

I believe there are things that would justify that, yes, and a type of racism that encouraged violence towards others, etc. would meet that standard for me. More benign forms, no.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I'm not suggesting anything specific. Just saying I think whatever the treatment options are, they should be individualized, and not limited to what any subset of us consider to be culturally more palatable.

Do you believe the parents should be (1) notified and (2) have a say in the treatment options?

 

[iuwclurker]

So if a parent teaches racism to their child, should we remove the child? The public has an interest.

Is teaching racism irreversible?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

So if a parent teaches racism to their child, should we remove the child? The public has an interest.

That’s an excellent question. The better and more common issue though is domestic abuse. Even if a kid isn’t abused, when a parent is, the kid has an increased likelihood of being violent. As much as the social workers would like to step in, the courts will generally require proof of neglect or other failure to thrive before the state is allowed to intrude.

What do you think? Should the state step i when kids are taught racism?

Yeah, I know what you tried to do marv. It’s still a good question.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Do you believe the parents should be (1) notified and (2) have a say in the treatment options?

Parents should always be involved in the medical treatment of minors unless they aren't looking out for the best interests of the child, which should only be determined after due process.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Blah blah blah. Say something.

Brad has no problem engaging what I'm saying. Maybe you're the problem here.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What do you think? Should the state step i when kids are taught racism?

No, I do not unless it moves from teaching to violence. We allow parents to pass down all sorts of crazy beliefs. If a parent wants to pass down non-binary or whatever, I may not get it but I don't see it as different.

Now surgery is different, maybe. We don't allow female circumcision of youth, but we do allow male circumcision. So the record is mixed. So I personally don't agree with surgery but again I don't study this stuff.

I know from some gay friends that they always knew they were gay. At 9, I had no idea about anything, but I can't discount there are some kids who know.

If the people who love the child thinks it is in the best interest AND if the psychiatrist and MD involved agree, I am not convinced my discomfort should overrule. But I do think psychiatrists need to be involved.

 

[iuwclurker]

Parents should always be involved in the medical treatment of minors unless they aren't looking out for the best interests of the child, which should only be determined after due process.

So are you against the Baker act?

“The Baker Act allows for involuntary examination (what some call emergency or involuntary commitment), which can be initiated by judges, law enforcement officials, physicians, or mental health professionals and close friends and relatives.”

“Examinations may last up to 72 hours after a person is deemed medically stable and occur in over 100 Florida Department of Children and Families-designated receiving facilities statewide.”

Sounds like some degree of treatment under the guise of examination if the examinee has to be medically stable before the 72-hour period begins.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

No, I do not unless it moves from teaching to violence. We allow parents to pass down all sorts of crazy beliefs. If a parent wants to pass down non-binary or whatever, I may not get it but I don't see it as different.

Now surgery is different, maybe. We don't allow female circumcision of youth, but we do allow male circumcision. So the record is mixed. So I personally don't agree with surgery but again I don't study this stuff.

I know from some gay friends that they always knew they were gay. At 9, I had no idea about anything, but I can't discount there are some kids who know.

If the people who love the child thinks it is in the best interest AND if the psychiatrist and MD involved agree, I am not convinced my discomfort should overrule. But I do think psychiatrists need to be involved.

Abigail Schrier wrote a book, Irreversible Damage, about problems with this system, though. Here's a substack she wrote regarding some of the same problems:

Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care

In exclusive interviews, two prominent providers sound off on puberty blockers, 'affirmative' care, the inhibition of sexual pleasure, and the suppression of dissent in their field.

bariweiss.substack.com

 

[T.M.P.]

I'm not on board with biological men participating in women's sports.

Every time this is mention, I think of Jaden Ivey and laugh ..

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Brad has no problem engaging what I'm saying. Maybe you're the problem here.

Of course I am. I’m trying to push the discussion and you slam the door at your vacuous banalities.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Abigail Schrier wrote a book, Irreversible Damage, about problems with this system, though. Here's a substack she wrote regarding some of the same problems:

Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care

In exclusive interviews, two prominent providers sound off on puberty blockers, 'affirmative' care, the inhibition of sexual pleasure, and the suppression of dissent in their field.

bariweiss.substack.com

Great article. And doubtless some mistakes are made, the field needs protocols tightened. But I did not read there this should never happen. As a society we too frequently use a lot of procedures but that doesn't mean we should move to none.

It should be the default to do nothing unless there is a very compelling reason. I am not equipped to make that call.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Abigail Schrier wrote a book, Irreversible Damage, about problems with this system, though. Here's a substack she wrote regarding some of the same problems:

Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care

In exclusive interviews, two prominent providers sound off on puberty blockers, 'affirmative' care, the inhibition of sexual pleasure, and the suppression of dissent in their field.

bariweiss.substack.com

Here is the DSM V about gender dysphoria diagnosis and treatment for young kids. .

The DSM-5 defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):​

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.​

​

Treatment​

Support for people with gender dysphoria may include open-ended exploration of their feelings and experiences of gender identity and expression, without the therapist having any pre-defined gender identity or expression outcome defined as preferable to another.2 Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical.2,3​

​

Can you imagine a deposition of any expert who orders life altering treatment using the DSM? The diagnostic criteria are squishy as hell. The only objective point is the clinical finding of distress and impairment. Yet if the clinician believes the sexual incongruity is a symptom and not a cause, the clinician is prohibited in correcting the symptom. This is nuts.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Oklahoma's governor signed a bill banning any nonbinary markers for gender on birth certificates. There's not a lot of detail in the articles about it, and I don't know much about it, myself, but here it is:

Oklahoma governor signs ban on nonbinary birth certificates

Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt has signed a bill prohibiting the use of nonbinary gender markers on state birth certificates

abcnews.go.com

My immediate response was: "Okay, sounds fine. So what?" After all, no one has a gender identity at birth. We are assigned a gender at birth. Then our parents generally raise us as the gender we were assigned. Any problems arise much later in our development. So I couldn't see any reason to mark a birth certificate as anything other than M or F. But then I started thinking about it some more, and a few theoreticals occurred to me that might make this more of a deal than I thought it was. I'm still mulling it over, but I'm sure quite a few of you here will be capable of forming a strong opinion in a hurry....

So, GO!

aren't most human births non binary.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Blah blah blah. Say something.

Why would he start now? This is his creed.

 

[mcmurtry66]

aren't most human births non binary.

View embedded media

No. Sex is defined by the needs of Wall Street. Always has been. Always will be. The idiocy is believing in nature

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Of course I am. I’m trying to push the discussion and you slam the door at your vacuous banalities.

You tried to push the discussion by putting words in my mouth. I'm not interested. Offer your own words.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

You tried to push the discussion by putting words in my mouth. I'm not interested. Offer your own words.

after "vacuous banalities", should we really encourage that???

 

[CO. Hoosier]

No, I do not unless it moves from teaching to violence. We allow parents to pass down all sorts of crazy beliefs. If a parent wants to pass down non-binary or whatever, I may not get it but I don't see it as different.

Now surgery is different, maybe. We don't allow female circumcision of youth, but we do allow male circumcision. So the record is mixed. So I personally don't agree with surgery but again I don't study this stuff.

I know from some gay friends that they always knew they were gay. At 9, I had no idea about anything, but I can't discount there are some kids who know.

If the people who love the child thinks it is in the best interest AND if the psychiatrist and MD involved agree, I am not convinced my discomfort should overrule. But I do think psychiatrists need to be involved.

Having psychiatrists involved starts the debate, it doesn’t end it.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Having psychiatrists involved starts the debate, it doesn’t end it.

It is a medical decision, involve medical people. Should I ask your permission for an appendectomy? Does my doctor saying I need one just start the conversation?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You tried to push the discussion by putting words in my mouth. I'm not interested. Offer your own words.

Ha. Then your thread title should be “Let’s have another pillow fight”.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Ha. Then your thread title should be “Let’s have another pillow fight”.

I find it interesting how many times you've insisted that you are not a troll.

 

[bawlmer]

Why are liberals so taken with making bizarre bullshit sound acceptable and normal? You can’t make a guy a gal by cutting his nuts off and pumping him full of hormones. Period.

if gender isn’t binary, why is ”gender affirming” surgery and treatment always binary?

All Oklahoma, Florida, and other states are doing is legislating normalcy. It’s a bizarre world when we must legislate normalcy.

With all due respect, i don't think you know what you're talking about here. Gay isn't new.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

about half a percent of the population identify as transgender.

that it's become such a big part of the political debate, shows just how effective the CORPORATE media are in totally burying the real issues that would help Dem candidates, and always emphasizing the ones that are vote losers for Dems.

and just how brain dead level beyond moronic Dem politicians are in letting them.

and that the national DNC, and MSNBC, and CNN, are all false flag operations, who are ALL controlled by money that DOESN'T want Dems winning elections.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Now in the sports arena there might be questions. I get that. But if on the street you meet someone who you believe is clearly male and they tell you they are non-binary, how has this damaged your life?

they definitely haven’t harmed anyone.
but didn’t this start with people getting upset at being labeled him or her or ma’am or sir?

I’m not going to listen to someone dressed like a woman or man tell me why I’m offensive, particularly if I’m not trying to be.

other than that, the only other thing is it’s confusing my kids.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

they definitely haven’t harmed anyone.
but didn’t this start with people getting upset at being labeled him or her or ma’am or sir?

I’m not going to listen to someone dressed like a woman or man tell me why I’m offensive, particularly if I’m not trying to be.

other than that, the only other thing is it’s confusing my kids.

It may be people get dressed down. Maybe I have been lucky, I find if people think I am sincere they don't get upset.

About the kids, my youngest daughter was about 5 when she called another girl a boy because she had really short hair. It hurt the other girl's feelings and I got to have a talk with her about it. Kids are going to be confused about a lot.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Oklahoma's governor signed a bill banning any nonbinary markers for gender on birth certificates. There's not a lot of detail in the articles about it, and I don't know much about it, myself, but here it is:

Oklahoma governor signs ban on nonbinary birth certificates

Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt has signed a bill prohibiting the use of nonbinary gender markers on state birth certificates

abcnews.go.com

My immediate response was: "Okay, sounds fine. So what?" After all, no one has a gender identity at birth. We are assigned a gender at birth. Then our parents generally raise us as the gender we were assigned. Any problems arise much later in our development. So I couldn't see any reason to mark a birth certificate as anything other than M or F. But then I started thinking about it some more, and a few theoreticals occurred to me that might make this more of a deal than I thought it was. I'm still mulling it over, but I'm sure quite a few of you here will be capable of forming a strong opinion in a hurry....

So, GO!

I don’t know enough to understand how Intersex is treated, but that’s the only semi-complicated circumstance. Given its rare, but not that rare, I’d imagine the medical community already has a way to choose which is the more dominant sex?

gender identity is pretty important during a child’s initial exams and early growth. Certain circumstances are more common for one sex or another. For example, my daughter had a scare of hip dysplasia. They only identified that risk because she is a female (much more common) and they heard/felt some issues with her hip socket.

it just seems to me that assigning a gender isn’t doing any harm. People can change if they want, but they shouldn’t hold the medical community responsible for their problems.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Great article. And doubtless some mistakes are made, the field needs protocols tightened. But I did not read there this should never happen. As a society we too frequently use a lot of procedures but that doesn't mean we should move to none.

It should be the default to do nothing unless there is a very compelling reason. I am not equipped to make that call.

Sure. But ask about what happened to Abigail Shrier for daring to expose the ideology and its harms.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don’t know enough to understand how Intersex is treated, but that’s the only semi-complicated circumstance. Given its rare, but not that rare, I’d imagine the medical community already has a way to choose which is the more dominant sex?

gender identity is pretty important during a child’s initial exams and early growth. Certain circumstances are more common for one sex or another. For example, my daughter had a scare of hip dysplasia. They only identified that risk because she is a female (much more common) and they heard/felt some issues with her hip socket.

it just seems to me that assigning a gender isn’t doing any harm. People can change if they want, but they shouldn’t hold the medical community responsible for their problems.

I have no idea how they deal with intersex now, but they way they used to deal with it ("Hand me a scalpel - it's a girl!") was one of the sources of the problems for those unfortunate people, for the reasons you highlight, and others.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I have no idea how they deal with intersex now, but they way they used to deal with it ("Hand me a scalpel - it's a girl!") was one of the sources of the problems for those unfortunate people, for the reasons you highlight, and others.

I have no idea either, but one would imagine they could run tests to analyze which is the dominant gender. Even if someone is born with both parts, I can't imagine their genetics are literally 50/50. But, I have been wrong before.