What do you think about the fact PU has no tradition in basketball? Sour grapes. If you don't care about the banners, talk about something else: nobody has a gun to your head.
Morton to PU
- Thread starter Hoosierdaddy_
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A Purdue fan comes to an IU message board and posts twenty times about our banners. Then he claims he doesn’t care about said banners 
I only care about those 2 seasons 1940 and 1953. IU was the NCAA and national champions in 1940 and 1953. Victories on the court, along with all data and the AP, UPI and even the Helms Donut Shop have reinforced what IU did on the court by declaring them national champions those two years. I only proved the validity of most of the other seasons because others brought it up. Per Wiki, the metrics support the NCAA winner as the legit national champions in ALL YEARS except for 1939 and 1941:
" More recently, the mathematically based Premo-Porretta Power Poll published in the ESPN College Basketball Encyclopedia retroactively ranked teams for each season prior to 1949, with the NIT champion finishing ahead of the NCAA champion in 1939 and 1941. . Between 1939 and 1970, when teams could compete in either tournament, only DePaul (1945), Utah (1947),San Francisco (1949) and Holy Cross (1954) [30] claim or celebrate national championships for their teams based solely on an NIT championship.
Could it be that Ray Meyer prefers the NIT because his DePaul team won the NIT, but NEVER won the NCAA?
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The school with more wins and championships in the Big Ten than any other school has no tradition? You and Jimmy get dumber with every post either of you make. You’re an embarrassment to real IU fans everywhere.
I was taking about something else in this thread as I pointed out. You just couldn't help yourself bringing up the past. you're a broken record at this point. A sad one from the 80s.
The college basketball season is over: everything is the past right now. It sucks to have tradition, I guess. PU has never done anything, and that's sad. You were a willing participant in your conversations. See you in the funny papers.I was taking about something else in this thread as I pointed out. You just couldn't help yourself bringing up the past. you're a broken record at this point. A sad one from the 80s.
Did you actually read the three articles I posted?
It doesn’t appear so.
Because what I stated very clearly was that the NIT, in the early years of the two national postseason tournaments, was the preeminent tournament, and I offered supporting evidence via the three articles I provided with quotes from people that actually played and coached, vs people that sit behind a keyboard and rant about IU.
You’re playing into the hands of the people you state are wronging you and IU and don’t even realize it. That’s really embarrassing.
Not as sad as an IU fan who has no dog in the fight feeling he needs to bolster the argument of the Pu trolls here to do nothing but argue...but thank goodness there are guys like you around to set things straight
Wait, did you count my posts in this thread? Did you read them? Did you see the one where I went and showed who turned the conversation from Ethan Morton (the thread title) to banners? I never mention them unless they're brought up to me and my thoughts have been the same. Didn't say you guys can't be proud of your past, but i do think some of you do live in past and think your tradition is the same as those times. That is a little naive. My opinion that I'm entitled to.A Purdue fan comes to an IU message board and posts twenty times about our banners. Then he claims he doesn’t care about said banners
It's really odd how some of you only want to bring up banners to Purdue fans and then claim that the Purdue fans you're talking are obsessed with those banners.
You can't stop talking about the banners, can you? That is all you've talked about! You are making the case against yourself. I thought you were leaving.
Never claimed any one wronged me. That is just weird. I said that in 1940 and 53 Indiana University, winner of the NCAA tournament, was the best team in the country. Jimmy posted the original argument for this and others added to it in this and the thread he started. The facts are indisputable. I did not read your article and have very little interest in it as it is not really addressing the topic. You have not presented an argument as to why the NIT tournament was better in 1940 or 53. I also argued that the NCAA tourney champ was superior in 43, 44 and 45 as they beat the NIT champions in a post tournament championship in those years. You have not presented counter arguments to any of those points.
I just think it is cute purdue has sports fans. We are talking about a school with maybe 1 or 2 NCAA titles overall. So sad!
It was an educated guess. I love history and I love Indiana basketball, so yes I do care about our banners and our tradition. I realize most 18 year old kids do not but that has nothing to do with me. They are free to make their college choices based on their own criteria and I wish them all the best of luck unless playing IU
Now I can respect this. I'm perfectly fine with everything you just said.
“I did not read your article and have very little interest in it.”
Again, perfect.
Simply perfect.
You and Jimmy are now “The Ostrich Twins.”
It is literally not possible to be as obtuse as the two of you present yourselves here. Truly not possible.
Unless you’re a UK fan. Then it’s possible.
^^ you are trying to debate something neither of us is interested in. Why don’t you find someone else to argue with over the prestige of the NIT vs NCAA 1939 - 53. I have argued that in 40, 43, 44, 45, 46 and 53 the NCAA champion was superior. If you want to argue against that go for it.
If you're not interested, why do you keep replying?
You're not very good at this message board thingie, are you?
PS: selectively parsing the data you wish to analyze instead of looking at the entire data set is a great tap out. Well done.
You’re acting like a dick. I’m debating individual years so the data for other years is irrelevant in this scenario. Like I said, if you want to discuss the years I mentioned I’m game. If not take your own advice and stop replying
Actually, it is you that is acting puerile. This debate isn't about individual years, it's about an era, specifically the early years of the NIT and NCAA tournaments.
You're not doing well.
At all.
Wrong. That is not what the post that sparked this debate was about. It was about 40 and 53. Why are you not capable of debating those years?
You're wrong, it was about that era, and the efficacy of the two tournaments. I've provided examples that support the NIT as the preeminent tournament of that era, you've ..... wanked around about 2 seasons of a 15-year-ish stretch. It's embarrassing to watch you and Jimmy flail about.
If y’all don’t want PU fans to post on this site, then don’t start posts on PU players and recruits.
I’ll explain it to you one more time. Mathboy said the NCAA tourney was for runners up. Jimmy disagreed and you said he was wrong. Jimmy went on to explain how IU was the best team in the country in both 40 and 53. This is correct and you never attempted to refute it.
In 1940 IU won the NCAA tournament, which featured the NIT champ and runner up as well as Kansas, USC, Western Kentucky and Rice, all of whom won their conference.
In 1953, IU again won the NCAA tournament. This year they went into the tournament ranked first in the country. The NCAA featured the 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7th ranked teams in th country while the NIT had 3,4 and 9.
Also, in 43, 44 and 45 the champions of the NCAA and NIT met in a champion of champions game with the NCAA prevailing all three times.
Basketball Reference has historical AP poll data from the 1948-49 season on. Let’s take a look! It looks like the final AP poll was conducted BEFORE the tournaments until 53
1949
NCAA champion Kentucky was ranked number one in the final AP poll. Number 2 Oklahoma St and 4 Illinois were also NCAA participants. NIT champ San Francisco was 8. Kentucky also played in the NIT, losing to number 16 Loyola. I believe this was the Ralph Beard point shaving game. Number 3 St Louis, 5 Wesrern Kentucky and 7 Bradley were also in the NIT. Since NCAA champ Kentucky lost in the NIT, it is probably fair to call San Francisco the rightful national champs, though the point shaving complicates things and I think it is for to say the tournaments were fairly even that year
1950
CCNY beat Bradley in the title game of the NCAA and NIT. Again the final poll was apparently before the tournaments as Bradley was rated first and CCNY 19. The NCAA tournament also featured 2 Ohio St, 4 Holy Cross, 5 NC State, 7 UCLA. The NIT included 3 Kentucky, 6 Duquesne, 8 Western Kentucky, 9 St John’s and 10 LaSalle. Pretty even.
1951
NCAA champion Kentucky finished the season number one. NIT champ BYU finished 11. The NCAA tournament included included 2 Oklahoma State, 3 Columbia, 4 Kansas St, 5 Illinois, 8 NC St, 9 St John’s and NIT champ BYU. The NIT also had 8 NC State, 9 St John’s and 10 St Louis. 7 Indiana did not play on either tournament as Illinois won the Big Ten and the NCAA bid. Clearly the NCAA was the superior tournament this year.
1952
Once again our final AP poll appears before the tournaments. NCAA champ Kansas is 8 while NIT champ LaSalle is not rated. The NCAA tournament also featured 1 Kentucky, 2 Illinois, 4 Duquesne, 5 St Louis and 10 St John’s. The NIT included 4 Duquesne, 5 St Louis and 10 St John’s. The NIT is closer in quality this year than 51 but all the top ten teams in the NIT were also in the NCAA tournament.
1953 has already been discussed in detail, with the NCAA being the better tournament that year as well. I think we can safely say that in 49 and 50 the two tournaments were extremely close in quality but the NCAA gained an advantage by 51
1949
NCAA champion Kentucky was ranked number one in the final AP poll. Number 2 Oklahoma St and 4 Illinois were also NCAA participants. NIT champ San Francisco was 8. Kentucky also played in the NIT, losing to number 16 Loyola. I believe this was the Ralph Beard point shaving game. Number 3 St Louis, 5 Wesrern Kentucky and 7 Bradley were also in the NIT. Since NCAA champ Kentucky lost in the NIT, it is probably fair to call San Francisco the rightful national champs, though the point shaving complicates things and I think it is for to say the tournaments were fairly even that year
1950
CCNY beat Bradley in the title game of the NCAA and NIT. Again the final poll was apparently before the tournaments as Bradley was rated first and CCNY 19. The NCAA tournament also featured 2 Ohio St, 4 Holy Cross, 5 NC State, 7 UCLA. The NIT included 3 Kentucky, 6 Duquesne, 8 Western Kentucky, 9 St John’s and 10 LaSalle. Pretty even.
1951
NCAA champion Kentucky finished the season number one. NIT champ BYU finished 11. The NCAA tournament included included 2 Oklahoma State, 3 Columbia, 4 Kansas St, 5 Illinois, 8 NC St, 9 St John’s and NIT champ BYU. The NIT also had 8 NC State, 9 St John’s and 10 St Louis. 7 Indiana did not play on either tournament as Illinois won the Big Ten and the NCAA bid. Clearly the NCAA was the superior tournament this year.
1952
Once again our final AP poll appears before the tournaments. NCAA champ Kansas is 8 while NIT champ LaSalle is not rated. The NCAA tournament also featured 1 Kentucky, 2 Illinois, 4 Duquesne, 5 St Louis and 10 St John’s. The NIT included 4 Duquesne, 5 St Louis and 10 St John’s. The NIT is closer in quality this year than 51 but all the top ten teams in the NIT were also in the NCAA tournament.
1953 has already been discussed in detail, with the NCAA being the better tournament that year as well. I think we can safely say that in 49 and 50 the two tournaments were extremely close in quality but the NCAA gained an advantage by 51
“I did not read your article and have very little interest in it.”
Oh I've seen multiple in my lifetime. You on the other hand will never see one. Sad thing, eh?
did you really just reply to a post I made Friday that you had already replied to before? I suppose that comment really struck a nerve with you. Take some deep breaths and maybe a nap. It'll be ok I promise. I know you can't wait to fire off that predictable response though so go ahead.
Oh the poor boiler snowflake has never seen his team with a NCAA title. Not a sports school!
This - the only seasons that were the basis of the original "debate" are the seasons of 1940 and 1953. If O does not believe that to be the only point that was intended to be "debated" she just needs to go back to the original post(s).
It is interesting though that data was turned up in the discussion proving that the NCAA champ was superior in all years from 1939 to the early 1950s, except for the 1939 and 1941 seasons. NCAA had superior teams to the NIT in almost all years, because of the propensity of the NIT to "invite" a disproportionate amount of NYC and area teams, instead of the best teams in the land. It is nice that in the nostalgic memories of some individuals resulted in a preference for the NIT, but the data shows the overall superiority of NCAA tourney. What is not debatable though, and I think it has been proven to all but a few, is that IUs championships in 1940 and 1953 were won by the true national champion-IU.
O, here is the original post. Where is the "era" addressed. Everything in this post, the original, is about 1940 and 1953. "Get your head out of the sand, you're embarrassing yourself, not good at this, etc.." Oh, you wrote that about other posters, does it apply to you, just maybe?
The FACTS about IU and the 1940 and 1953 NCAA Championships...
Discussion in 'TheHoosier.com IU Hoop Forum' started by jimmygoiu, Saturday at 11:01 PM.
-
jimmygoiu All-American
Joined:
Sep 5, 2001
"
- It is time to set the record straight. Too many times the IU championships of 1940 and 1953 have been attempted to be minimized as a less than true championship. Here is the info on the two NCAA championships that mathboy and other broilees plus at least one uniformed IU fan, have tried to minimize and demean over the years:
1940 NIT:
The 1940 NIT had 6 teams in the tournament. Those teams were Colorado, Duquesne, Oklahoma A&M., Long Island, St. John's and DePaul. Colorado defeated Duquesne 51-40 to win the tournament.
The 1940 NCAA:
The 1940 NCAA tournament had 8 teams, including the 1940 NIT champion and runnerup in the tournament. Colorado(17-2), Duquesne(19-2), Indiana(17-3), Kansas(17-5), Springfield(16-2), Rice(21-2), WesternKy(24-5), and USC(19-2).
Note that the 1940 NIT champion(Colorado) and runnerup(Duquesne) are also both in the 1940 NCAA tournament. Indiana beat Duquesne in its opening game, 39-30. USC beat Colorado 38-32 in the second round. Rice then beat Colorado in the consolation game. The 1940 NIT champion, Colorado, finished fourth in the 1940 NCAA tournament. The runnerup in the NIT Dusquesne, lost handily to the NCAA Champion - Indiana. Indiana beat blueblood Kansas in the championship game 60-42.
Mathboy and other broilees are also way off on the 1953 Indiana National Championship:
The 1953 NIT Tournament:
The 1953 NIT had 12 entries, dominated by New York and east coast schools. The participants were Duquesne, Georgetown, LaSalle, Manhattan, Niagara, St. John's, Seton Hall, BYU, Louisville, St.Louis, Tulsa and Western Kentucky. Seton Hall beat another NYC team, St. John's 58-52, to win the NIT.
The 1953 NCAA Tournament had 22 teams, including Indiana, Kansas, LSU, Washington, Notre Dame, Oklahoma A&M, and DePaul. Indiana defeated Kansas for the championship, after defeating DePaul, Notre Dame and LSU along the way
I guess it's fun for some to somehow minimize IU's first two championships. It is clear that the NCAA tournament was the prestigious tournament in 1940 and 1953. IU won on the court, beating the best in the nation. No bakery shop declared it seven years after the season -IU won it on the court. FYI, the 1953 IU team ENTERED the tourney as the #1 ranked team in the nation by both the AP and UPI polls. #1, prior to the tourney start, so I'm of the opinion that IU was thought to be and PROVED that it was the best team in the country in 1953.
In 1940, both the NIT Champion and the runnerup also played in the NCAA. IU beat the runnerup in the opening game. The NIT champ was beaten twice in the NCAA tourney and ended up in fourth place in the NCAA tourney. The 1953 IU team began the NCAA tournament as the #1 ranked team in the country, by both the AP and UPI polls, and preceded to live up to their ranking by winning the 1953 NCAA Championship. It is evident that all FIVE of IU's championships were proved on the court, against the best teams in the country."
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No one cares who won 70-80 years ago. Sorry...they just don’t. Especially not recruits.O, here is the original post. Where is the "era" addressed. Everything in this post, the original, is about 1940 and 1953. "Get your head out of the sand, you're embarrassing yourself, not good at this, etc.." Oh, you wrote that about other posters, does it apply to you, just maybe?
The FACTS about IU and the 1940 and 1953 NCAA Championships...
Discussion in 'TheHoosier.com IU Hoop Forum' started by jimmygoiu, Saturday at 11:01 PM.
O, also please reread the original and subsequent posts on this thread from the middle of page 5 on. NOWHERE is an "era" brought up by me-only the years 1940 and 1953. You tried to turn this into an "era" debate, despite our protests, but subsequent data/info/facts that HoosierJimbo, brianiu and I researched proved you were not correct in your opinions/statements.
jimmygoiu All-American
Joined:
Sep 5, 2001
"
- It is time to set the record straight. Too many times the IU championships of 1940 and 1953 have been attempted to be minimized as a less than true championship. Here is the info on the two NCAA championships that mathboy and other broilees plus at least one uniformed IU fan, have tried to minimize and demean over the years:
1940 NIT:
The 1940 NIT had 6 teams in the tournament. Those teams were Colorado, Duquesne, Oklahoma A&M., Long Island, St. John's and DePaul. Colorado defeated Duquesne 51-40 to win the tournament.
The 1940 NCAA:
The 1940 NCAA tournament had 8 teams, including the 1940 NIT champion and runnerup in the tournament. Colorado(17-2), Duquesne(19-2), Indiana(17-3), Kansas(17-5), Springfield(16-2), Rice(21-2), WesternKy(24-5), and USC(19-2).
Note that the 1940 NIT champion(Colorado) and runnerup(Duquesne) are also both in the 1940 NCAA tournament. Indiana beat Duquesne in its opening game, 39-30. USC beat Colorado 38-32 in the second round. Rice then beat Colorado in the consolation game. The 1940 NIT champion, Colorado, finished fourth in the 1940 NCAA tournament. The runnerup in the NIT Dusquesne, lost handily to the NCAA Champion - Indiana. Indiana beat blueblood Kansas in the championship game 60-42.
Mathboy and other broilees are also way off on the 1953 Indiana National Championship:
The 1953 NIT Tournament:
The 1953 NIT had 12 entries, dominated by New York and east coast schools. The participants were Duquesne, Georgetown, LaSalle, Manhattan, Niagara, St. John's, Seton Hall, BYU, Louisville, St.Louis, Tulsa and Western Kentucky. Seton Hall beat another NYC team, St. John's 58-52, to win the NIT.
The 1953 NCAA Tournament had 22 teams, including Indiana, Kansas, LSU, Washington, Notre Dame, Oklahoma A&M, and DePaul. Indiana defeated Kansas for the championship, after defeating DePaul, Notre Dame and LSU along the way
I guess it's fun for some to somehow minimize IU's first two championships. It is clear that the NCAA tournament was the prestigious tournament in 1940 and 1953. IU won on the court, beating the best in the nation. No bakery shop declared it seven years after the season -IU won it on the court. FYI, the 1953 IU team ENTERED the tourney as the #1 ranked team in the nation by both the AP and UPI polls. #1, prior to the tourney start, so I'm of the opinion that IU was thought to be and PROVED that it was the best team in the country in 1953.
In 1940, both the NIT Champion and the runnerup also played in the NCAA. IU beat the runnerup in the opening game. The NIT champ was beaten twice in the NCAA tourney and ended up in fourth place in the NCAA tourney. The 1953 IU team began the NCAA tournament as the #1 ranked team in the country, by both the AP and UPI polls, and preceded to live up to their ranking by winning the 1953 NCAA Championship. It is evident that all FIVE of IU's championships were proved on the court, against the best teams in the country."
I’m all about bashing recruits but we surely have better ammo than 1940 championships.
Obviously, from my avatar, I'm trying to diminish IU's 1940 and 1953 NatiChampi's.O, here is the original post. Where is the "era" addressed. Everything in this post, the original, is about 1940 and 1953. "Get your head out of the sand, you're embarrassing yourself, not good at this, etc.." Oh, you wrote that about other posters, does it apply to you, just maybe?
The FACTS about IU and the 1940 and 1953 NCAA Championships...
Discussion in 'TheHoosier.com IU Hoop Forum' started by jimmygoiu, Saturday at 11:01 PM.
O, also please reread the original and subsequent posts on this thread from the middle of page 5 on. NOWHERE is an "era" brought up by me-only the years 1940 and 1953. You tried to turn this into an "era" debate, despite our protests, but subsequent data/info/facts that HoosierJimbo, brianiu and I researched proved you were not correct in your opinions/statements.
jimmygoiu All-American
Joined:
Sep 5, 2001
"
- It is time to set the record straight. Too many times the IU championships of 1940 and 1953 have been attempted to be minimized as a less than true championship. Here is the info on the two NCAA championships that mathboy and other broilees plus at least one uniformed IU fan, have tried to minimize and demean over the years:
1940 NIT:
The 1940 NIT had 6 teams in the tournament. Those teams were Colorado, Duquesne, Oklahoma A&M., Long Island, St. John's and DePaul. Colorado defeated Duquesne 51-40 to win the tournament.
The 1940 NCAA:
The 1940 NCAA tournament had 8 teams, including the 1940 NIT champion and runnerup in the tournament. Colorado(17-2), Duquesne(19-2), Indiana(17-3), Kansas(17-5), Springfield(16-2), Rice(21-2), WesternKy(24-5), and USC(19-2).
Note that the 1940 NIT champion(Colorado) and runnerup(Duquesne) are also both in the 1940 NCAA tournament. Indiana beat Duquesne in its opening game, 39-30. USC beat Colorado 38-32 in the second round. Rice then beat Colorado in the consolation game. The 1940 NIT champion, Colorado, finished fourth in the 1940 NCAA tournament. The runnerup in the NIT Dusquesne, lost handily to the NCAA Champion - Indiana. Indiana beat blueblood Kansas in the championship game 60-42.
Mathboy and other broilees are also way off on the 1953 Indiana National Championship:
The 1953 NIT Tournament:
The 1953 NIT had 12 entries, dominated by New York and east coast schools. The participants were Duquesne, Georgetown, LaSalle, Manhattan, Niagara, St. John's, Seton Hall, BYU, Louisville, St.Louis, Tulsa and Western Kentucky. Seton Hall beat another NYC team, St. John's 58-52, to win the NIT.
The 1953 NCAA Tournament had 22 teams, including Indiana, Kansas, LSU, Washington, Notre Dame, Oklahoma A&M, and DePaul. Indiana defeated Kansas for the championship, after defeating DePaul, Notre Dame and LSU along the way
I guess it's fun for some to somehow minimize IU's first two championships. It is clear that the NCAA tournament was the prestigious tournament in 1940 and 1953. IU won on the court, beating the best in the nation. No bakery shop declared it seven years after the season -IU won it on the court. FYI, the 1953 IU team ENTERED the tourney as the #1 ranked team in the nation by both the AP and UPI polls. #1, prior to the tourney start, so I'm of the opinion that IU was thought to be and PROVED that it was the best team in the country in 1953.
In 1940, both the NIT Champion and the runnerup also played in the NCAA. IU beat the runnerup in the opening game. The NIT champ was beaten twice in the NCAA tourney and ended up in fourth place in the NCAA tourney. The 1953 IU team began the NCAA tournament as the #1 ranked team in the country, by both the AP and UPI polls, and preceded to live up to their ranking by winning the 1953 NCAA Championship. It is evident that all FIVE of IU's championships were proved on the court, against the best teams in the country."
Or maybe not.
Well, it is an era debate, and as much data as you provided, I provided equally as much data from people that actually coached and played the game at the highest level of college hoops (including a guy with the initials RMK) that stated categorically that, in the early days (say the 1940's and early 1950's), the NIT was the preeminent postseason tournament in comparison to the NCAA. There's a reason the NCAA waited until the NIT was complete in those days - they didn't want to compete with the NIT.
You're still not doing well.
At all.
If you did a little research you would know that the NCAA primarily involved conference champions while most of the Eastern schools were independents. The was no Big East, A10, etc. As such, the NIT did invite a lot of Northeast schools. You dismiss the power of the Northeast schools in those days. For example, CCNY, the only school to win both tournament in the same year did not give athletic scholarships, or any scholarships for that matter. The reason: CCNY was part of the City University of NY (CUNY) and at that time and until the 1980s CUNY charged no tuition.
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