M*A*S*H*, TV, and morality

[CO. Hoosier]

In searching for Modern Family pics to poke at McMurtry66,* I saw this link regarding MASH:

Why MASH's Finale Is Still The Most Watched TV Episode Of All Time

Iconic comedy M*A*S*H ran for eleven seasons and its 1983 finale still holds the record for the most watched scripted episode in TV history.

screenrant.com

It brought me back. I was born a year before the first episodes of MASH aired and grew up on the show. My parents weren't preachy, weren't particularly interested in teaching me moral lessons, and were quite satisfied with plopping me down in front of a TV for hours and hours on end as a child--I connected with Martin Tupper from HBO's Dream On.

The show I probably watched the most was MASH. Back in the day--late 70's/early 80s--you could watch a new MASH each week along with about 3 or 4 a day in re-runs between 5-7 on a few local channels in Northern Indiana. Hawkeye was kinda my hero/role model. I think my view of morality is pretty much all gleaned from that show's later years--it tackled racism, homophobia, tolerance, anti-semitism, kindness, etc.

How much did that show affect Generation X and today's more liberal views on all of these subjects? Has that disappeared now, I wonder? In 1983, over 1/3 of the country watched the finale (over 100 million); compared to GoT's less than 10% (19 million).

It seems like a lot of people here might also be in this MASH generation. Did you all watch it too? Do you have fond memories of it?

Confession: I never really found it very funny.

*McMurtry66 gets his balls busted more than almost anyone based on his transparent personal life. He takes it as well as anyone could, and with a lot of self-deprecating humor. He deserves praise for that. Also, he's going through a tough time right now, and I just want you to know, that I sincerely hope you and your family can weather this storm and come out of it with the least emotional pain possible.

I always saw MASH as a left-wing protest. It was part of the beginning of our overwhelming self-loathing we see today. That said, I thought the writing was terrific and I enjoyed the show.

My morality came from the Lone Ranger, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, Leave it to Beaver, and many others.. Clear-cut lines between right and wrong and good and evil were helpful when growing up. I Love Lucy, Burns and Allen, and others were hilarious without being preachy.

TV and the performing arts in general began its long trek to the bottom when it decided entertaining the audience was less important than delivering a message about politics, society, or what have you.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

And it was appt television. That doesn't exist anymore really. Somebody posted earlier that MASH got 100 million viewers for the finale opposed to GOTs 19 million. GOT was appt television for a lot of people but nowhere near the level of broadcast television.

I suppose in some ways it mirrors the further diminishment of community we felt with one another. It's really too bad the national conversations now are almost solely centered on sports and politics.

I agree that we have lost some of our sense of community, and there are a host of reasons. I am going to start a thread on this because I am curious and don't want to hijack this.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I always saw MASH as a left-wing protest. It was part of the beginning of our overwhelming self-loathing we see today. That said, I thought the writing was terrific and I enjoyed the show.

My morality came from the Lone Ranger, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, Leave it to Beaver, and many others.. Clear-cut lines between right and wrong and good and evil were helpful when growing up. I Love Lucy, Burns and Allen, and others were hilarious without being preachy.

TV and the performing arts in general began its long trek to the bottom when it decided entertaining the audience was less important than delivering a message about politics, society, or what have you.

Your post highlights one of my questions. I didn’t know as a child I was being taught left wing stuff and you didn’t know as a child you were being taught right wing stuff.

As for entertainment or art sending a message, I think that’s as old as theater itself.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Your post highlights one of questions. I didn’t know as a child I was being taught left wing stuff and you didn’t know as a child you were being taught right wing stuff.

As for entertainment or art sending a message, I think that’s as old as theater itself.

I think you are right, I think art has ALWAYS sent a message. And I think you are right that we just ignored that there was a message being sent. So many of our old westerns, which I love, were definitely sending a political message. Heck, Norman Rockwell was political (and a liberal one at that).

Why Norman Rockwell Matters | Artsy

The quintessential painter of American life didn’t always get the respect he deserved—but his depictions of the country’s hopes, dreams, and struggles are iconic.

www.artsy.net

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I think you are right, I think art has ALWAYS sent a message. And I think you are right that we just ignored that there was a message being sent. So many of our old westerns, which I love, were definitely sending a political message. Heck, Norman Rockwell was political (and a liberal one at that).

Why Norman Rockwell Matters | Artsy

The quintessential painter of American life didn’t always get the respect he deserved—but his depictions of the country’s hopes, dreams, and struggles are iconic.

www.artsy.net

Lysistrata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Peace (play) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[larsIU]

Lysistrata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Peace (play) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This has been going on a long time apparently.

Candide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Courtsensetwo]

It is the most watched episode because there was less to do back then and the country made it into a holiday with watch parties at homes, bars, hotels, etc. Seinfeld and newhart had better finales.

The Mash episode that did strike me was the one where Pierce relived a woman on a bus under fire who had to smother he crying child.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It is the most watched episode because there was less to do back then and the country made it into a holiday with watch parties at homes, bars, hotels, etc. Seinfeld and newhart had better finales.

The Mash episode that did strike me was the one where Pierce relived a woman on a bus under fire who had to smother he crying child.

That was Goodbye, Farewell, and Amen. That incident was why Hawkeye had to see the shrink.

I wasn't a big fan of the finale. All good sitcoms go through this evolution. They start out humous, end up nostalgic. So much of MASH's later year success is that people loved tuning in to see their "friends'. The last couple years of Cheers were that way, same for Big Bang. The MASH finale was very much just nostalgia.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Your post highlights one of my questions. I didn’t know as a child I was being taught left wing stuff and you didn’t know as a child you were being taught right wing stuff.

As for entertainment or art sending a message, I think that’s as old as theater itself.

Yes. Sending a message through theater is old stuff. A Christmas Carol provides a message about life, but it isn’t political. Those who suggest it’s political are of the ilk that forces politics into everything.

But there is art that is there only for entertainment. That’s often the best.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

That was Goodbye, Farewell, and Amen. That incident was why Hawkeye had to see the shrink.

I wasn't a big fan of the finale. All good sitcoms go through this evolution. They start out humous, end up nostalgic. So much of MASH's later year success is that people loved tuning in to see their "friends'. The last couple years of Cheers were that way, same for Big Bang. The MASH finale was very much just nostalgia.

I was young, and didn't even remember it was the finale but that hit me squarely.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think you are right, I think art has ALWAYS sent a message. And I think you are right that we just ignored that there was a message being sent. So many of our old westerns, which I love, were definitely sending a political message. Heck, Norman Rockwell was political (and a liberal one at that).

Why Norman Rockwell Matters | Artsy

The quintessential painter of American life didn’t always get the respect he deserved—but his depictions of the country’s hopes, dreams, and struggles are iconic.

www.artsy.net

High Noon obviously delivered a political message. What others? Shane? Maybe. Hondo? That was good v evil. Most of the old westerns were about that.

Old war movies fostered patriotism. (Defined as Love of Country). Is that political? I don’t think so. Norway is one of the most patriotic countries around and it is very left politically.

 

[Circlejoe]

I always saw MASH as a left-wing protest. It was part of the beginning of our overwhelming self-loathing we see today. That said, I thought the writing was terrific and I enjoyed the show.

My morality came from the Lone Ranger, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, Leave it to Beaver, and many others.. Clear-cut lines between right and wrong and good and evil were helpful when growing up. I Love Lucy, Burns and Allen, and others were hilarious without being preachy.

TV and the performing arts in general began its long trek to the bottom when it decided entertaining the audience was less important than delivering a message about politics, society, or what have you.

You’re really fvcking old.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

That was Goodbye, Farewell, and Amen. That incident was why Hawkeye had to see the shrink.

I wasn't a big fan of the finale. All good sitcoms go through this evolution. They start out humous, end up nostalgic. So much of MASH's later year success is that people loved tuning in to see their "friends'. The last couple years of Cheers were that way, same for Big Bang. The MASH finale was very much just nostalgia.

I love nostalgia. Loved the finale. It stuck with me, too.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

High Noon obviously delivered a political message. What others? Shane? Maybe. Hondo? That was good v evil. Most of the old westerns were about that.

Old war movies fostered patriotism. (Defined as Love of Country). Is that political? I don’t think so. Norway is one of the most patriotic countries around and it is very left politically.

Take a look at Josey Wales, an honorable man hunted down by the evil government.

1930s had bankers in disrepute in the US. How many westerns are a banker, or big landowner, the evil-doer stopped by the lone-wolf (a very populist message)? I love Ford westerns, but Fort Apache was sending a message

The Democratic Virtues of Fort Apache – Adam M. Carrington

One of the best films ever made, Fort Apache shows that the modern world is still capable of virtue.

lawliberty.org

As were his others.

Since this came up about MASH, MASH never said "Vote Democratic". It did mention Truman a couple times, once where Hawkeye sent him a telegram asking "who's responsible" and once where Potter is trying to trick a racist officer by blaming Truman for the desegregation of the army. Largely of course MASH was on Vietnam and couldn't blame the GOP for Vietnam and didn't try. But it did tackle racism, It certainly tackled the loneliness of service personnel. It certainly taught respect for everyone. Are those not fairly universal?

 

[larsIU]

Yes. Sending a message through theater is old stuff. A Christmas Carol provides a message about life, but it isn’t political. Those who suggest it’s political are of the ilk that forces politics into everything.

But there is art that is there only for entertainment. That’s often the best.

Would "It's a Wonderful Life" be construed as sending a political message? Say it came out this year. Same movie.


PS. I 100% think "It's a Wonderful Life" sends a pretty ham fisted political message and I'm ok with that.

 

[DANC]

I almost said MASH was my favorite show, but there are several shows that could claim that title. You name many of them. Barney Miller may be the most underrated show of all time, it never seems to come up in the conversation about the greatest TV show but it deserves to be mentioned.

For some reason, I never got into Soap. I should try it again as I loved Benson.

Sometimes I hear people talk about today as a golden age of TV. And it is great. But look at CBS Saturday in 1974 starting at 8 PM; All in the Family, Jeffersons, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Carol Burnett. That's a discussion of all-time great shows right there on one network on one night.

All In The Family and the Jeffersons would never be made today.

 

[DANC]

And it was appt television. That doesn't exist anymore really. Somebody posted earlier that MASH got 100 million viewers for the finale opposed to GOTs 19 million. GOT was appt television for a lot of people but nowhere near the level of broadcast television.

I suppose in some ways it mirrors the further diminishment of community we felt with one another. It's really too bad the national conversations now are almost solely centered on sports and politics.

I remember in 8th grade, we all talked about the latest episode of Laugh In. It was radical back in the day. "Sock it to me?" "You bet your bippy". Classics

 

[larsIU]

I remember in 8th grade, we all talked about the latest episode of Laugh In. It was radical back in the day. "Sock it to me?" "You bet your bippy". Classics

I remember Candace Bergen being a single mother was a big deal. And the first lesbian kiss on some show I don't remember.

And Woody on Cheers being from Indiana

 

[DANC]

I remember Candace Bergen being a single mother was a big deal. And the first lesbian kiss on some show I don't remember.

And Woody on Cheers being from Indiana

When Kirk kissed Uhura on Star Trek, that was a pretty big deal at the time.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I watched all of the Andy Griffith's many times, as well. I tried to make my kids watch them, but they are just too slow for them.

I might institute a new rule in the house: you stay home sick and want to watch TV, you have 4 options: MASH, Andy Griffith, Magnum PI (original, obvs), or Love Boat.

Love Boat? Be honest, when did you first start hating your children?

 

[larsIU]

Love Boat? Be honest, when did you first start hating your children?

I bought the first season of the A Team and made the wife watch it. It's so campy and fantastic.

 

[Indianaftw]

I almost said MASH was my favorite show, but there are several shows that could claim that title. You name many of them. Barney Miller may be the most underrated show of all time, it never seems to come up in the conversation about the greatest TV show but it deserves to be mentioned.

For some reason, I never got into Soap. I should try it again as I loved Benson.

Sometimes I hear people talk about today as a golden age of TV. And it is great. But look at CBS Saturday in 1974 starting at 8 PM; All in the Family, Jeffersons, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Carol Burnett. That's a discussion of all-time great shows right there on one network on one night.

Watched all those. They all had great characters. Barney Miller had a great cast.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Love Boat? Be honest, when did you first start hating your children?

Always had a thing for Charo:

 

[larsIU]

Always had a thing for Charo:

View embedded media

Well, we all have one.


Edit for fairness. Mine is Kathy Bates. I cannot explain it. Probably Oedipal so I'll just continue to refrain from putting too much thought into it.

 

[Indianaftw]

Always had a thing for Charo:

View embedded media

Ohhh man my wife and I used to eat at this restaurant in Scottsdale called Such is Life. An upscale Mexican (Vera Cruz) style restaurant. They did a lot of table side cooking and even Cafe Diablo. The owner used to come out and sit with us and she was Charo's twin, not really but same bubbly personality and looks. We loved her.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

All In The Family and the Jeffersons would never be made today.

Have you ever watched "The Neighborhood"? I love it.

 

[SqueakyClean]

When Kirk kissed Uhura on Star Trek, that was a pretty big deal at the time.

And I think this is a correct important point. Entertainment media has always pushed the boundaries. The 80's and 90's saw TV trying to tackle racism and women empowerment. While those concepts certainly still exist and can be woven into current day stories, alot of is has been covered already. My belief is that the 10's and early 20's TV have now moved on to the LGBQT because that was "virgin territory" to push the boundaries again. It's kind of a gradual flow where gay characters were introduced into stories in the '90's, but were never really the focus of the stories. Now that the viewers have seen a decade of LGBQT characters in their shows, the "taboo-ness" (?) of it has worn off, so now they are free to dive into exploring the stories there.

The problem is, alot of it is a little too ham-fisted, IMO. Maybe it's because the options have increased to the point where anybody can write a screenplay and you have to sift through the 90% of the garbage to find the good ones, but it seems that the message has become more important than the story. At the end of the day, people watch TV to get a little escapism from their daily drudgery. We want to be entertained, not preached to. Great stories make you enjoy the experience and then search for the meaning, not the other way around.

 

[SqueakyClean]

I watched all of the Andy Griffith's many times, as well. I tried to make my kids watch them, but they are just too slow for them.

I might institute a new rule in the house: you stay home sick and want to watch TV, you have 4 options: MASH, Andy Griffith, Magnum PI (original, obvs), or Love Boat.

You do know that they rebooted the Love Boat, right? So, I'm assuming you meant the original on that one as well.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

You do know that they rebooted the Love Boat, right? So, I'm assuming you meant the original on that one as well.

Obvs.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Well, we all have one.


Edit for fairness. Mine is Kathy Bates. I cannot explain it. Probably Oedipal so I'll just continue to refrain from putting too much though into it.

This is the most disturbing thing I've ever read on the internet.

 

[IUclover]

As a kid with no cable growing up in the 90s, I watched it from about 10-14 years old. It was one of those shows on later at night (after the news) or mid-morning after other kids' shows. I don't think the show shaped my political views in any way, much like playing GTA didn't shape my behavior.

 

[SqueakyClean]

This is the most disturbing thing I've ever read on the internet.

Dude, I read a couple of weeks ago how someone was hot for Rosie O'donnel after watching Escape to Eden. Trust me, there be some weeeeeeiiiiiirrrrrd people out there.

 

[larsIU]

This is the most disturbing thing I've ever read on the internet.

There's a certain scene in About Schmidt............

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

There's a certain scene in About Schmidt............

Great. I just looked it up and now have Ashley Madison ads popping up all over my computer.

 

[Harry Hondo]

In searching for Modern Family pics to poke at McMurtry66,* I saw this link regarding MASH:

Why MASH's Finale Is Still The Most Watched TV Episode Of All Time

Iconic comedy M*A*S*H ran for eleven seasons and its 1983 finale still holds the record for the most watched scripted episode in TV history.

screenrant.com

It brought me back. I was born a year before the first episodes of MASH aired and grew up on the show. My parents weren't preachy, weren't particularly interested in teaching me moral lessons, and were quite satisfied with plopping me down in front of a TV for hours and hours on end as a child--I connected with Martin Tupper from HBO's Dream On.

The show I probably watched the most was MASH. Back in the day--late 70's/early 80s--you could watch a new MASH each week along with about 3 or 4 a day in re-runs between 5-7 on a few local channels in Northern Indiana. Hawkeye was kinda my hero/role model. I think my view of morality is pretty much all gleaned from that show's later years--it tackled racism, homophobia, tolerance, anti-semitism, kindness, etc.

How much did that show affect Generation X and today's more liberal views on all of these subjects? Has that disappeared now, I wonder? In 1983, over 1/3 of the country watched the finale (over 100 million); compared to GoT's less than 10% (19 million).

It seems like a lot of people here might also be in this MASH generation. Did you all watch it too? Do you have fond memories of it?

Confession: I never really found it very funny.

*McMurtry66 gets his balls busted more than almost anyone based on his transparent personal life. He takes it as well as anyone could, and with a lot of self-deprecating humor. He deserves praise for that. Also, he's going through a tough time right now, and I just want you to know, that I sincerely hope you and your family can weather this storm and come out of it with the least emotional pain possible.

MASH was a dramedy so it wasn’t supposed be that funny. The producers didn’t want a laugh track, but the network insisted. When the show became a huge hit the producers had more clout and did several episodes sans laugh track. The operating room scenes never had a laugh track.

 

[Harry Hondo]

I always saw MASH as a left-wing protest. It was part of the beginning of our overwhelming self-loathing we see today. That said, I thought the writing was terrific and I enjoyed the show.

My morality came from the Lone Ranger, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, Leave it to Beaver, and many others.. Clear-cut lines between right and wrong and good and evil were helpful when growing up. I Love Lucy, Burns and Allen, and others were hilarious without being preachy.

TV and the performing arts in general began its long trek to the bottom when it decided entertaining the audience was less important than delivering a message about politics, society, or what have you.

Actually, I think TV did a 180 in the 80’s and was filled with meaningless action shows (Night Rider, The A Team, Miami Vice) and it’s number one show was a non political morality lesson, The Cosby Show.. Gone were the brilliance of MASH and All in the Family. The 90’s then had Seinfeld as the top show and it didn’t have a political stance or commentary about society. Now it’s filled with reality TV crap.

Do you really think TV shows continued to be political after the 70’s? Films did, but TV got a lot more conservative compared to earlier shows from the late 60’s thru the 70’s. I think the Vietnam war was a big reason and by the 80’s it was over and Reagan ushered in a new perspective.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Actually, I think TV did a 180 in the 80’s and was filled with meaningless action shows (Night Rider, The A Team, Miami Vice) and it’s number one show was a non political morality lesson, The Cosby Show.. Gone were the brilliance of MASH and All in the Family. The 90’s then had Seinfeld as the top show and it didn’t have a political stance or commentary about society. Now it’s filled with reality TV crap.

Do you really think TV shows continued to be political after the 70’s? Films did, but TV got a lot more conservative compared to earlier shows from the late 60’s thru the 70’s. I think the Vietnam war was a big reason and by the 80’s it was over and Reagan ushered in a new perspective.

I agree with much of this. MASH was one of a kind in many different ways.

TV drama today seems to be mostly about f*cked up people. I guess that is what some consider real. I think the best TV is the historical period stuff.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I agree with much of this. MASH was one of a kind in many different ways.

TV drama today seems to be mostly about f*cked up people. I guess that is what some consider real. I think the best TV is the historical period stuff.

Real people are screwed up.

 

[DANC]

Have you ever watched "The Neighborhood"? I love it.

Is that the one with Cedric the Entertainer?

I have not. The white couple really annoys me.

 

[Crayfish57]

Is that the one with Cedric the Entertainer?

I have not. The white couple really annoys me.

I havent watched that but Beth Behrs on 2 Broke Girls was worth the watch for her in the diner miniskirt.