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Loss of civility leaves America in a pickle

None of this is new to this generation. It's just now captured on video.

Instead of fighting on pickle ball courts, they fought on racquetball courts, even tennis courts. They certainly fought on basketball courts. Ever had an argument about who has next?

Two weeks ago there was a fight in my goto over a dart board. Men in their 40s and 50s.
If it's over poor parenting, it was parenting done a long time ago.


32 years of coaching:
I had a parent in 1993 tell me his grandmother could win with my team (I guess that meant I could really recruit), but that was because I ranked another kid on team at his son's position higher than his son in Hoop Scoop, even though he started for me.

In 2005, I had a death threat from a parent. I didn't take it seriously, but there were plenty of witnesses. Today, someone would've called the cops on him.

Same summer, 2005, I had to tell another dad he was no longer welcome to our games. (He pulled his son...of course.)

In 2019, a dad had one too many blow ups in the stands, so again, I had to tell him he was no longer welcome.

In 32 years of coaching, the only evolution in parents I've seen is their attempt to micromanage the coverage they get, and even that is in only about 10% of them. They aren't problems. They just don't know what they don't know.


I haven't seen a mass change in parents. What I also haven't seen a change in is one generation blaming the ones below it. We dissect the impacts of social media, and there are many, but most of what it's done to parenting is captured more of the bad ones and added one more element of things to worry about with their children.

BTW...there were parents back in the day who let their child do whatever. I'm friends with parents who share their stories and views. I've effectively lived with two different women who had kids. Both great single mothers. I would say their boundaries are looser to some degree to mine, but I was also of generation that was left alone during the day in my youth. That's not really possible these days.

My mother had it easy. I couldn't threaten to go live with my dad. He lived too far away, and she knew I was bluffing.


Hyperbole.
I don't know. I see a lot of kids who think their opinion matters. It doesn't. I have no qualms telling my daughter at 15 that her opinion doesn't matter and that she should listen to people who are older and wiser. But, that's me. Far too many kids, possibly due to their unprecedented access to information and ability to participate in the cultural zeitgeist, feel like they are owed a seat at the table. They are not. And they should understand that until they have the experience to understand wtf they are talking about they should just do more listening. I call it the Greta Thunberg syndrome.

It's tough b/c I believe in discipline so maybe the lack of it so many households just perplexes me at an abnormal level. The shit I hear from my kid about her friends and their friends and randos at school is far different than when I was a kid. But, maybe it's just more out in the open.

Hyperbole.
Maybe, but not by much.
 
I don't know. I see a lot of kids who think their opinion matters. It doesn't. I have no qualms telling my daughter at 15 that her opinion doesn't matter and that she should listen to people who are older and wiser. But, that's me. Far too many kids, possibly due to their unprecedented access to information and ability to participate in the cultural zeitgeist, feel like they are owed a seat at the table. They are not. And they should understand that until they have the experience to understand wtf they are talking about they should just do more listening. I call it the Greta Thunberg syndrome.

It's tough b/c I believe in discipline so maybe the lack of it so many households just perplexes me at an abnormal level. The shit I hear from my kid about her friends and their friends and randos at school is far different than when I was a kid. But, maybe it's just more out in the open.


Maybe, but not by much.

I'm gonna push back here a little bit and say that I think we should value the opinions on SOME issues our kids have.

In my opinion, if they don't think their opinion matters, they might not be confident to confine in their parents, which isn't something I want in my kids. If my kids are passionate about something and have an opinion, I want to know what it is. I don't always agree with it, but it's a good way to talk and understand where they are coming from.

That's just my $.02.
 
I don't know. I see a lot of kids who think their opinion matters. It doesn't. I have no qualms telling my daughter at 15 that her opinion doesn't matter and that she should listen to people who are older and wiser. But, that's me. Far too many kids, possibly due to their unprecedented access to information and ability to participate in the cultural zeitgeist, feel like they are owed a seat at the table. They are not. And they should understand that until they have the experience to understand wtf they are talking about they should just do more listening. I call it the Greta Thunberg syndrome.

It's tough b/c I believe in discipline so maybe the lack of it so many households just perplexes me at an abnormal level. The shit I hear from my kid about her friends and their friends and randos at school is far different than when I was a kid. But, maybe it's just more out in the open.


Maybe, but not by much.
Shut yer yap, junior.
 
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I'm gonna push back here a little bit and say that I think we should value the opinions on SOME issues our kids have.

In my opinion, if they don't think their opinion matters, they might not be confident to confine in their parents, which isn't something I want in my kids. If my kids are passionate about something and have an opinion, I want to know what it is. I don't always agree with it, but it's a good way to talk and understand where they are coming from.

That's just my $.02.
I'll agree with you that things that affect them (school, friends, peer pressure), i'll listen. But you want to tell me about how I should live my life? GTFOH.

Whenever a child tells me I don't know what I'm talking about.......I'm just saying it's tough not to verbally bludgeon them to a pulp.
 
I'll agree with you that things that affect them (school, friends, peer pressure), i'll listen. But you want to tell me about how I should live my life? GTFOH.

Whenever a child tells me I don't know what I'm talking about.......I'm just saying it's tough not to verbally bludgeon them to a pulp.
Or hand down a sentence of capital punishment.
 
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Listen here old man........

Although, I do laugh when the millenials/zoomers talk about all the shit the boomers are doing to THEM and I laugh and think "To YOU, we were THEIR KIDS for chrissakes".
Screen-Shot-2023-09-14-at-9.27.18-AM.jpg
 
I'll agree with you that things that affect them (school, friends, peer pressure), i'll listen. But you want to tell me about how I should live my life? GTFOH.

Whenever a child tells me I don't know what I'm talking about.......I'm just saying it's tough not to verbally bludgeon them to a pulp.

Yeah, I'm 100% with you then.
 
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As a parent one thing that pisses me off is other parents who let their kids do whatever they want and try to be their bestie. That's not parenting but it's what passes for it around here (Carmel).

God forbid we talk about parenting in the poorer communities across America. Parents now yell at teachers and coaches. No ****ing way my parents (nor I) would ever conclude my child's shitty performance in school or on a field was the result of the teacher or coach. But that's the world we live in.

Everybody a victim. Backed up by everything they see on social media. Always somebody else's fault.
from about 30 yrs ago.

the great Mike Royko.....


Irresponsibility should be focus of next program

When the worried talk is about schools, the answers are always money and new programs. The politicians talk about money, where it will come from and how it will be spread around. The educational experts talk about programs and how they will be implemented. Where would they be without programs to implement?

When the worried talk about crime, the answers are always stricter gun control laws and, of course, the implementation of new drug programs.

When the worried talk about troubled families, the answers are new federal social service programs. Even now the White House is talking about new multibillion-dollar “family preservation” programs that will send out hordes of social workers to bring broken families together. Assuming, of course, that these programs are properly implemented.

And now that we have a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress, there will be a blizzard of new programs. If there is anything Democrats believe in, it is that for every problem, there should be a federal program. But there is something missing in the talk about the problems and the programs intended to solve these problems.

It is what I call the “Who, me?” factor. As in, “It is your responsibility,” followed by, “Who, me?”

Start with the schools. The problem isn’t money. We spend vast sums on schools. Nor is it a lack of programs. We have more educational programs than can be implemented in the next 100 years.

Where there are problem schools, the biggest source of the problem is the parent. The kind of parent who when told that she or he is responsible for her or his children, says: “Who, me?”

Show me the worst school districts in Chicago, Detroit, New York, Los Angeles, and I will show you parents who should not be raising a Chia Pet, much less a child.

These are places where the illegitimacy rates are jaw-dropping, where ignorance and illiteracy are handed down from generation to generation like family heirlooms.

What kind of program do we implement to persuade some dense teen-age girl that she should not couple with some street-swagger boyfriend? What program, if implemented, will make the young man understand that if he fathers children, it is his responsibility to live with those children and try to support them?

“Who, me?” They will answer with amazement. Isn’t that what school is for? Or the social workers? Isn’t there some program that does it?

The same applies to crime. Strict laws will only make a tiny dent in that problem. Thickheaded as the gun lobby can be, they are right about one thing: the gangbangers, grocer-killers and drug dealers aren’t deterred by registration or cooling- off laws. They don’t shop at sporting marts with the skeet-shooting crowd. Their gun suppliers deal out of car trunks or abandoned buildings.

And we can trace the rise in violent crime to the same source of the school ailments. The parts of the cities that produce the illegitimates and illiterates are giving us the greatest number of trigger-happy young felons. You don’t have to know how to parse a sentence, much less read one, to point a gun at a convenience store clerk or deliver a load of crack.

So now we are going to get the Family Preservation Act and more programs for social workers to implement. If it does some good, which I doubt, fine.

But what we need as much as a Family Preservation Act is a Family Prevention Act. There is not much point in trying to preserve families that weren’t families in the first place. If you go to a family court in a big city, what you see is some stupefied young woman, her physically or mentally abused kids and a slack-jawed boyfriend sitting in a back row. Since when has that been a family? And what is there to preserve? If the kids survive the abuse and neglect, they’ll be the next generation of social misfits and menaces.

And when they are told they are responsible for their own actions and for those of their children, they will look blank and say, “Who, me?”

If President Clinton intends to create public works jobs, the I suggest he do it this way: Round up the young fathers who breed and walk away. Give them a choice: Work and use your paycheck to support your family or go to jail.

If he wants to reform welfare, the apply the same standards as we do in our hunting and fishing laws. There is a limit. And what would be wrong with telling a woman: “Two is your limit and you have reached it. Any more than that and you support them yourselves.”

Is that hard-hearted and insensitive? Maybe. But for several decades, we have been good-hearted, bleeding-hearted and ultrasensitive. And what has it given us? The highest rates of illegitimacy, illiteracy, homicide and chronic dependency of any developed country.

And at the rate we’re going, it’s only going to get worse, not better.

So the social engineers and program implementers should start taking a new approach. Which used to be the old approach.

When someone says: “Who, me?” the answer should be, “Yes, you and don’t do it again.”
 
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from about 30 yrs ago.

the great Mike Royko.....


Irresponsibility should be focus of next program

When the worried talk is about schools, the answers are always money and new programs. The politicians talk about money, where it will come from and how it will be spread around. The educational experts talk about programs and how they will be implemented. Where would they be without programs to implement?

When the worried talk about crime, the answers are always stricter gun control laws and, of course, the implementation of new drug programs.

When the worried talk about troubled families, the answers are new federal social service programs. Even now the White House is talking about new multibillion-dollar “family preservation” programs that will send out hordes of social workers to bring broken families together. Assuming, of course, that these programs are properly implemented.

And now that we have a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress, there will be a blizzard of new programs. If there is anything Democrats believe in, it is that for every problem, there should be a federal program. But there is something missing in the talk about the problems and the programs intended to solve these problems.

It is what I call the “Who, me?” factor. As in, “It is your responsibility,” followed by, “Who, me?”

Start with the schools. The problem isn’t money. We spend vast sums on schools. Nor is it a lack of programs. We have more educational programs than can be implemented in the next 100 years.

Where there are problem schools, the biggest source of the problem is the parent. The kind of parent who when told that she or he is responsible for her or his children, says: “Who, me?”

Show me the worst school districts in Chicago, Detroit, New York, Los Angeles, and I will show you parents who should not be raising a Chia Pet, much less a child.

These are places where the illegitimacy rates are jaw-dropping, where ignorance and illiteracy are handed down from generation to generation like family heirlooms.

What kind of program do we implement to persuade some dense teen-age girl that she should not couple with some street-swagger boyfriend? What program, if implemented, will make the young man understand that if he fathers children, it is his responsibility to live with those children and try to support them?

“Who, me?” They will answer with amazement. Isn’t that what school is for? Or the social workers? Isn’t there some program that does it?

The same applies to crime. Strict laws will only make a tiny dent in that problem. Thickheaded as the gun lobby can be, they are right about one thing: the gangbangers, grocer-killers and drug dealers aren’t deterred by registration or cooling- off laws. They don’t shop at sporting marts with the skeet-shooting crowd. Their gun suppliers deal out of car trunks or abandoned buildings.

And we can trace the rise in violent crime to the same source of the school ailments. The parts of the cities that produce the illegitimates and illiterates are giving us the greatest number of trigger-happy young felons. You don’t have to know how to parse a sentence, much less read one, to point a gun at a convenience store clerk or deliver a load of crack.

So now we are going to get the Family Preservation Act and more programs for social workers to implement. If it does some good, which I doubt, fine.

But what we need as much as a Family Preservation Act is a Family Prevention Act. There is not much point in trying to preserve families that weren’t families in the first place. If you go to a family court in a big city, what you see is some stupefied young woman, her physically or mentally abused kids and a slack-jawed boyfriend sitting in a back row. Since when has that been a family? And what is there to preserve? If the kids survive the abuse and neglect, they’ll be the next generation of social misfits and menaces.

And when they are told they are responsible for their own actions and for those of their children, they will look blank and say, “Who, me?”

If President Clinton intends to create public works jobs, the I suggest he do it this way: Round up the young fathers who breed and walk away. Give them a choice: Work and use your paycheck to support your family or go to jail.

If he wants to reform welfare, the apply the same standards as we do in our hunting and fishing laws. There is a limit. And what would be wrong with telling a woman: “Two is your limit and you have reached it. Any more that that and you support them yourselves.”

Is that hard-hearted and insensitive? Maybe. But for several decades, we have been good-hearted, bleeding-hearted and ultrasensitive. And what has it given us? The highest rates of illegitimacy, illiteracy, homicide and chronic dependency of any developed country

And at the rate we’re going, it’s only going to get worse, not better.

So the social engineers and program implementers should start taking a new approach. Which used to be the old approach.

When someone says: “Who, me?” the answer should be, “Yes, you and don’t do it again.”
A lot to agree with there. It's generational and I have no idea how the hell we figure it out.

100 years from now we probably sterilize felons. I don't know.
 
I agree with the “self-obsessed little brat” comment and I think that is a huge issue. But it’s not just parenting. Our public education system encourages all of that. People find value in being a victim. We encourage that in k-12 though higher ed. Now we are in the second generation so we have self-obsessed brats raising more self-obsessed brats. Then people have learned to exploit victimhood for political and economic power, It’s a doom loop.
No, the education system does not encourage any of that.
 
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Did you mean "corporal" punishment, because I am totally with you on the "capital" kind being a little harsh?
Naw, I’m all in on capital punishment when kids act up. I might go back to teaching if I had a gallows or electric chair in my room! That‘ll teach em.
 
Query for the board. I dragged my daughter to my game last week. We were early and I was introducing her to one of my teammates I was saying this is Matt while he stuck his hand out and said I’m mr xxxx. I quickly threw in his last name to salvage the moment but I was going with his first name not mr so and so
Everyone is different on that one. A lot of my friends had their kids call me Miss my first name. I don’t care at all but some people do.
 
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Loss of civility leaves America in a pickle


What we have instead is a social sickness that seems to render people more willing to openly confront each other, when in the past the restraints of discretion and civility held sway.


the rich and investor class keeping the working class fighting each other, so they didn't and don't unite in fighting against the rich and investor class, has been a key strategy of the rich for centuries.

the last thing either branch of the Wall St Party wants, is the working class idiocracy politically uniting.

it's not personal. just business.
 
I love the term “motive attribution.” Part of this issue is our strong tendency to assign motives and attitudes to people based on their skin color or what color hat they wear. We don’t see individuals, we see only members of groups.

There is a simple passage of life that most go through:

Identity, then community and finally purpose.

The problem is that most people use external identifiers to define, associate and motivate themselves -- when as they mature they should be looking internally at who they are etc.

Unfortunately, most folks are still stuck on external identifiers defining 'who they are' and thus, stuck on that 'groups' stage.
 
the rich and investor class keeping the working class fighting each other, so they didn't and don't unite in fighting against the rich and investor class, has been a key strategy of the rich for centuries.

the last thing either branch of the Wall St Party wants, is the working class idiocracy politically uniting.

it's not personal. just business.

As mentioned before, I think a lot of this stems from the income disparity. The roots of that are well documented.

The productivity of the American workers/middle class has increased by 70+% since the late 70s. And yet real income has only gone up 17.4% over that same period. * The middle class isn't getting the financial benefits of that increased productivity. The 'few' are instead.

wagescompensation-1200x1093.jpg


This productivity/pay gap has caused people to work two or three jobs or both parents need to work just to pay the bills. And get by or spiral down.

Historically, the engine of the American economy has been the middle class having money to spend. But as this wage disparity has been consistently widening, the middle class has had to borrow to compensate for that gap. Leading to more stress, and having to work more jobs or borrow more.

And ultimately, less time for the family. Then the issues mentioned above.

Its also why so many Gen Zs who see what has happened -- and just don't want to get married, never mind want kids. They see what happened to their parents.

* And like Bidenomics, statistical data sometimes don't even reflect how much worse it is on Main Street.
 
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As mentioned before, I think a lot of this stems from the income disparity. The roots of that are well documented.

The productivity of the American workers/middle class has increased by 65% since the late 70s. And yet real income has only gone up 17.4% over that same period. The middle class isn't getting the financial benefits of that increased productivity. The 'few' are instead.

This productivity/pay gap has caused people to work two or three jobs or both parents need to work just to pay the bills. And get by or spiral down.

Historically, the engine of the American economy has been the middle class having money to spend. But as this wage disparity has been consistently widening, the middle class has had to borrow to compensate for that gap. Leading to more stress, and having to work more jobs or borrow more.

And ultimately, less time for the family. Then the issues mentioned above.

It’s also why so many Gen Zs who see what has happened -- and just don't want to get married, never mind want kids. They see what happened to their parents.
The government caused the issue when the U.S. went off the gold standard. The money is trash is the problem.
 
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But the gov't got off the gold standard in the 1930s.

This is the first article that popped up. There are numerous other articles. It’s what I was referring to. Once the dollar was no longer pegged to gold is when it all started. There was some inflation prior to the 70s, but it wasn’t anywhere near the level it has been the past 50 years.
 
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When did Fox News go on the air? Seems about the same time that we started seeing hate-filled old white guys everywhere.
Old white guys are leading the pack in murder, rioting, looting, burning, assault and all other crime.
 
shitter hates himself and white men. it's bizarre. like he and his family were centuries old slave owners and he can't figure out how to atone. very odd
He’s trying hard to get his wokeness bonafides. He doesn’t get the minorities he’s trying to pander to can’t stand white guys like him.
 
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incivility seems to be MOST on the rise NOT among the youth, but rather among angry old farts, usually white and usually male, and always playing the victim card.
You and your scientist buddies conduct studies to gather all these facts? Or are you just pulling it out of your ass?
 
Nice! Shitter is probably an old white man but seems to hate all other old white men.

Actually your OP was nicely done.
It was partly triggered by some discussions with my nieces who visited me a couple of weeks ago. (Still not sure how they can take 5 weeks off, coming over here then to Borneo to scuba dive and then to Korea and Japan with a bunch of their old college friends.)

Then coincidentally I read the article in the FT.

So much anger, outrage etc. going on. They are both tired of it.
 
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There is a simple passage of life that most go through:

Identity, then community and finally purpose.

The problem is that most people use external identifiers to define, associate and motivate themselves -- when as they mature they should be looking internally at who they are etc.

Unfortunately, most folks are still stuck on external identifiers defining 'who they are' and thus, stuck on that 'groups' stage.
The ideological commitment to external identifiers, particularly race and gender, is a product education, culture, politics, — everything. It was always present in the background but now it’s, as you said, the primary source of motivation. It’s now multigenerational and we are in a doom loop.
 
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Nice! Shitter is probably an old white man but seems to hate all other old white men.

Actually your OP was nicely done.
Some of my best friends are old white men.
Actually, old white guys are probably the demographic that is least likely to rely on external identifiers for legitimacy. Instead, all those who coalesce into groups impose OWG identifiers on us that we don’t use ourselves.
 
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Actually, old white guys are probably the demographic that is least likely to rely on external identifiers for legitimacy. Instead, all those who coalesce into groups impose OWG identifiers on us that we don’t use ourselves.
I think more and more you are right. The constant race baiting and lack of accountability on the part of Dems and the far left cult don’t make things better. Only worse. I know a black. Second wealthiest in either the country or the world. 35 years ago my friend went to collect his unpaid bill from him and the guy said look out the window. He was literally getting his car repossessed. Built himself up. Self made. Now a multibillionaire. And a Republican! POW!!! BANG!!!! blacks, some blacks, have it way way harder. Excusing and blaming others isn’t helping
 
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