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Look before you leap! NATO.

eh -- we're basically asking them to pay more, which I do agree with, but still let us dictate all NATO policies. that's where it gets sticky and nuanced. shockingly, Europe isn't entranced with US leadership after our latest forays in the ME. Europe also seems to now have a cultural aversion to big militaries. I've heard it described as decadence but with their history of killing neighbors and being killed by neighbors, it seems more like societal PTSD. they know good intentions can go bad quickly, whether we think they are cheap cowards or not.
Europe should be paying us directly for our continued military presence in their country.

Without us, they would go back to their factional squabbling and, eventually war among themselves once again.

Deep down, they know this. They want us on that wall. But they should be made to pay. You notice not one of them told Trump to stick it - they all agreed to his demands. They will again, if Trump is elected. But they know Biden would never enforce that kind of responsibility on them.

I disagree with your contention that 'Europe' doesn't have the combat experience Russia has. We've had allies on all our wars, from Korea on. Their militaries may not be large, but they are professional and, by all accounts, good. Together, under one command, they could be formidable and more than a challenge to Russia, especially with their airpower.

And they would be motivated, something Russian troops certain are not.
 
It's testable. All we have to do is elect Trump, and we will be testing it.
maybe trump is doing good things. maybe trump's threats and eliminating the tacit approval of biden whether it be nato or WHO with funding will have the impact of getting countries to do more for themselves and organizations to be more accountable. it's almost no different than the welfare state teh dems create with minorities/poor etc. maybe it is time to do more. sounds to me like europe is beginning to get the message. haven't done enough fast enough. 2% is probably outmoded etc
@Marvin the Martian tag you as well as the artice is timely
 
I believe that we need to have a "discussion" about what we are willing to defend and what that defense means. In a situation like Ukraine, we have given $70 billion in assistance already (with a request for $60 billion more) and the EU has given *$96 billion (they asterisk it themselves which leads me to believe that figure is being inflated and the DOD puts the military assistance at around $35 billion). Our allies in Europe don't have the military equipment but they do have money.

You know who doesn't have money right now? The country with a $34 Trillion debt that has added another $500 billion to that debt with FY24 deficit spending already (FY24 began on Oct 1). That is a pace to add more than another trillion to that debt by the end of September. This aid package we are debating to send Ukraine is another $60 billion in unfunded debt. Those saying that some American kids will have to fight Russia in the future have it all wrong. We won't be able to go and fight them because we won't have the economic wherewithal to support that.

Everyone clamoring to fund Ukraine's fight with Russia needs to get on the horn with their representatives and tell them it is time to raise revenue in the US or decide the one trillion and 60 billion worth of programs that they are going to cut so that we aren't heaping even more debt on ourselves.


I don't want the Russians to win in Ukraine but I am also put out by the Europeans not caring about things going on in their own backyard as much as we do from thousands of miles away. The Russians aren't going to invade North America. I don't think they have the power to make it past Poland in a land invasion whether we were involved or not. Not based on their anemic attack on Ukraine. And if the Europeans are willing to run to China at the first hint that we won't bankrupt ourselves to provide a defense for them that they aren't bothered to provide for themselves, then this is a shitty alliance built on sand.

Finally, what I do know is that the dollar is our biggest weapon and our spending is threatening its future value. If these things we do are truly important, we should be funding them. And I don't mean that by taxing the rich. I mean a regressive tax like a national sales tax that EVERYONE has to pay. I mean a significant decrease in government benefits paid out to able bodied people when there are jobs available everywhere. If we want to be the world police, we need to get our fiscal house in order. Both parties need to tax us for the things they say we need and then, when we are paying what this truly costs, we can have a real discussion about what we want our government to do.

In the case of Ukraine, I think we have the equipment and Europe has the money. Let them go into a little debt to provide for their own common defense by buying our gear.
I don't disagree with anything you said. But I'm not willing to walk away from Ukraine if Europeans don't pony up. And I think they are getting used to the idea that they need to do that.

I believe we have the political power to force them to up their contributions significantly. And that's what Trump attempts to do. Sure, he looks like a bully doing it, but that's the only way to move countries like France, Italy, and Spain to step up.
 
These increases have been in the works for a couple of years and have nothing to do with Trump’s threats to abandon allies to Russia if they don’t meet spending targets
Maybe not the last couple years, but Trump was saying it 7 years ago.
 
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maybe trump is doing good things. maybe trump's threats and eliminating the tacit approval of biden whether it be nato or WHO with funding will have the impact of getting countries to do more for themselves and organizations to be more accountable. it's almost no different than the welfare state teh dems create with minorities/poor etc. maybe it is time to do more. sounds to me like europe is beginning to get the message. haven't done enough fast enough. 2% is probably outmoded etc
@Marvin the Martian tag you as well as the artice is timely
One thing this article doesn't go into that I mentioned yesterday is that China is there actively involved and is going on a little European tour the next couple weeks. To be honest (and for better or worse) many European countries would be happy with some closer ties to China.

It's too politically risky for most right now, but there is definitely interest and willingness to talk.

 
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One thing this article doesn't go into that I mentioned yesterday is that China is there actively involved and is going on a little European tour the next couple weeks. To be honest (and for better or worse) many European countries would be happy with some closer ties to China.

It's too politically risky for most right now, but there is definitely interest and willingness to talk.

is europe as tethered to china for products as the US?
 
Maybe not the last couple years, but Trump was saying it 7 years ago.
NATO expenditures, in dollars and as a percent of GDP, have been increasing since 2015, and the rate of increase doesn’t support Trump’s claim that he was responsible for the increase.
 
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NATO expenditures, in dollars and as a percent of GDP, have been increasing since 2015, and the rate of increase doesn’t support Trump’s claim that he was responsible for the increase.
Got a link for that?
 
China is the EU's largest trading partner in terms of goods (industrial and manufactured goods), even more so than the US.

The US is the biggest partner when services are included.
Cheap shit. Like crack. I think something like 85 percent of the products in Walmart are manufactured in china
 

You can click on the years.

Look for defence expenditure as a percentage of GDP NATO total and NATO Europe.

You can also go to OECD it will give an annual report for defense spending

The bump in 2020 is due to the UK and France increasing their budgets, but only 10 hit the 2% target
It didn't go down in 2015 as a percent of GDP:


2016 doesn't give a NATO aggregate of GDP percentage, but total spending went up.


2017 looks like it remains flat (Graph 5)


2018 looks like percentage and spending actually went down


2019 expenditures remained about the same and GDP increased a little.


2020 - I see an uptick in total expenditures but no graph for GDP percentage


2021 - Graph 6 may be your best argument, but the graph doesn't line up with the previous years. In any event, by 2021, contributions had reached height way above what it was previous to Trump.
 
It didn't go down in 2015 as a percent of GDP:


2016 doesn't give a NATO aggregate of GDP percentage, but total spending went up.


2017 looks like it remains flat (Graph 5)


2018 looks like percentage and spending actually went down


2019 expenditures remained about the same and GDP increased a little.


2020 - I see an uptick in total expenditures but no graph for GDP percentage


2021 - Graph 6 may be your best argument, but the graph doesn't line up with the previous years. In any event, by 2021, contributions had reached height way above what it was previous to Trump.
The increases are driven by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and the realization in most of NATO that a Putin success there will inevitably lead to him using the same justification to attempt to reclaim other areas of the Russian Empire
 
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If the US we're not in Taiwan, do you think China would have taken it by now? Would North Korea have tried South Korea? The North attacked the first time because our SoS gave a speech drawing our line in the sand and didn't draw it through Korea. So we know of one case it specifically happened.

Mind you, it should fall to the UN but we created a spineless entity.
I don't know.

I don't get this paragraph, how are we paying for Europe's defense and not Qatar's or South Korea's? Nothing NATO stops us from cutting to 2%. That article showed Germany spent a lot modernizing our bases, does that count toward their defense? I don't know.

A large part of our expense is naval, keeping shipping lanes open. US corps are very dependent on the world's resources. We saw problems in our supply chains when the Suez closed when the cargo ships ran aground.

If we want to pull back, let's cut to 2% or less and come home. I have argued for defense cuts in the past, it wasn't liberals telling me it is dangerous. If we want out, let us pass a 2% budget and come home. Or pass 2% and stay in NATO . I am not sure, how many conservatives want the defense budget lowered to 2%?
I'm all for lowering our defense budget. That's part of what drives my questions.
 
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I don't know.


I'm all for lowering our defense budget. That's part of what drives my questions.

Which raises the question, why can't we lower it and stay in NATO?

Germany allied with 1.6% of their budget (they spend more) is still more firepower than us by ourselves.

Having allies is better than not. In WW1 Germany's partnership with Austria was called "shackled to a corpse". As bad as Austria and Turkey were as allies, and they were pathetic, they occupied a lot of Russian and Western troops. Troops that would have been fighting Germans.
 
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NATO expenditures, in dollars and as a percent of GDP, have been increasing since 2015, and the rate of increase doesn’t support Trump’s claim that he was responsible for the increase.

US Presidents have been harping on this issue since GWB (maybe before). But I know that both Bush and Obama had both been pushing for Euros to increase their defense spending.

 
I just don’t agree. I think Russia was built up as this great power and they’ve demonstrated over the last two years they were a paper tiger. I think many haven’t adapted their defense/geopolitical views to this new data.
I agree. Its economy is about the size of Florida’s economy. And they have terrible demographics. They’re f#cked moving forward.
 
We should have looked before we leapt with Turkish addition to NATO.

They are full on Islamist now. Maybe we should stop extending NATO invitations to every self-proclaimed Democracy in Europe.

had to have Turkey in NATO. they keep Russia's only warm water port in check and the black sea as a whole bottled up. we're patient with them for that strategic reason.
 
As a E-4 I hung out at the Club Istanbul.
Loved the EM clubs. You could drink in them before you were 21 and the food was usually pretty good and the drinks cheap. They also used to have some good bands.

As an 18 year old PFC, I was introduced to Singapore Slings at the Presidio of Monterey. That was my introduction to the evils of alcohol.
 
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Loved the EM clubs. You could drink in them before you were 21 and the food was usually pretty good and the drinks cheap. They also used to have some good bands.

As an 18 year old PFC, I was introduced to Singapore Slings at the Presidio of Monterey. That was my introduction to the evils of alcohol.
The Istanbul was 2 miles walking distance one way, Hippie German chicks.
 
Trump does. He’s discussed doing it with his senior military advisors.
I discussed banging Scarlet Johansson with my buddies. This does not mean I would, could, or should do it. We’d better have a CIC & admin willing & able to discuss any & all possibilities. Your TDS is clouding your judgement again.
 
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I discussed banging Scarlet Johansson with my buddies. This does not mean I would, could, or should do it. We’d better have a CIC & admin willing & able to discuss any & all possibilities. Your TDS is clouding your judgement again.
No. He specifically said he wanted to pull out of NATO. He was talked into waiting until after the election before taking steps to do it. This is not TDS, it’s real and it’s dangerous. And stop with that TDS bull shit. I’m objective on Trump. Not supporting him is logical, not deranged.
 
No. He specifically said he wanted to pull out of NATO. He was talked into waiting until after the election before taking steps to do it. This is not TDS, it’s real and it’s dangerous. And stop with that TDS bull shit. I’m objective on Trump. Not supporting him is logical, not deranged.
The first step towards the cure is acceptance. 2nd admit your Trumpaholism to others.
We are all here to accept your start if it’s in Ernest!
Just say you need help Republican. You shall be received.
 
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No. He specifically said he wanted to pull out of NATO. He was talked into waiting until after the election before taking steps to do it. This is not TDS, it’s real and it’s dangerous. And stop with that TDS bull shit. I’m objective on Trump. Not supporting him is logical, not deranged.
Oh, I was simply going directly off of your post that stated “he discussed it.” I did enjoy the unintentional humor regarding your Trump objectivity.🤣
 
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