Look before you leap! NATO.
- Thread starter Rockport Zebra
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I just learned that JFK THREATEND to leave NATO if Europe didn't buy more American Chickens.
JFK new America First before ...well you know the rest.
Hey Europe, 1776... When Men new how to say FU and mean it. Of course we had men back then, not politicians like mittens. .. The REAL republicans, of course.
JFK new America First before ...well you know the rest.
Hey Europe, 1776... When Men new how to say FU and mean it. Of course we had men back then, not politicians like mittens. .. The REAL republicans, of course.
I will be glad too. If we default on Ukraine and Nato and Russia over runs several former Sovit Republics our youth may be required to fight.
You didn't study history at Kentucky Wesleyan with a PHD professor. Too bad for you. I will condescend and call you a rookie.
Yep, lessons are soon forgotten. The same talk about foreign entanglements was going on pre-WWII.
One country taking over another may not mean that much to Main Street today, but put enough of those instances together and you've got Pearl Harbor.
Whether we like it or not, we are the protectors of Western values. Like Rome was the protector of Pax Romana. The time after Rome fell? "The Dark Ages".....
My grandkids get up at the crack of dawn..... good thing grandma is an early riser.
Our 'active adults' community has an indoor pool - it's awesome for a couple hours of entertainment for them and wears them out at the same time. Win-Win.
Russia hasn’t been able to overrun Ukraine. Why do you think they could overrun a unified European army? Do you believe Europe incapable of defending itself? I find that ludicrous based on what we now know.
Expecting NATO to live up to its obligations with the Bear right next door is not understanding history?
I beg to differ.
I never said we shouldn’t. I’m asking about the continued unquestioning support for NATO. Maybe it has run its course.
Not that we shouldn’t have mutual defense or friendly treaties with nations who share our values. I’m all for that. I just don’t know why we need to pay for the defense of Europe, which has about the same GDP as we do.
Re Ukraine, sell them everything they want. Don’t sell anything to Russia. Try to put together alliances and sanctions against Russia for its aggressive, illegal behavior. Loan them money to pay us back.
Well, he's not alone in that. General Bonespurs was equaled in deferments with the current CiC, Captain Asthma.
I don't have to love Trump to agree with his policies and I happen to agree with him that we are taken as suckers by European governments who don't want to pay for their own protection.
Yes, we do. Next question?
Also greatly reduces the possibility of a future world war when we control such a preponderance of worldwide military capability.
Bitch he used hegemon!! That’s our political science equivalent of robust!!
Russia doesn't need to overrun Ukraine to win and it doesn't need to be able to beat all European armies at once to reorder Europe and, in turn, the world. they've accomplished their main objective: Ukraine is not a member of NATO and won't be anytime soon. deposing Zelensky and installing a puppet govt would have been a "nice to have" but the "must have" is what they've been fighting for. sadly, an agreement is coming and Ukraine having deep ties with the west won't be a part of it.
and in reality, Europe might actually be incapable of defending itself without US involvement and leadership. two world wars and a Cold War might prove that. just too many divergent interests on that continent. to boot, russia has done a lot of fighting lately while the major European powers, minus lesser roles in our ME coalitions, haven't fought significant wars in three generations now. that matters.
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eh -- we're basically asking them to pay more, which I do agree with, but still let us dictate all NATO policies. that's where it gets sticky and nuanced. shockingly, Europe isn't entranced with US leadership after our latest forays in the ME. Europe also seems to now have a cultural aversion to big militaries. I've heard it described as decadence but with their history of killing neighbors and being killed by neighbors, it seems more like societal PTSD. they know good intentions can go bad quickly, whether we think they are cheap cowards or not.
Here is what is wrong with your logic. You believe we would spend less outside of MATO. We won't. NATO "requires" 2%. We spend over 3%. We do it because our doctrine is to engage in, and win, 2 wars simultaneously. Without NATO the odds of that increases. Where the money is being spent changes, sure, but not the amount. Americans love having an unparalleled military. That is not going to change. Having bases around the world allows us to deploy far faster. If we want to hit Iran, those European bases are close. We have bases in Japan and the Philippines to offset China.
We have a great navy, we do not know if aircraft carriers are obsolete. Some believe they are as battleships were in WW2. So we like to know we have unsinkable bases
To illustrate, this article calls Germany "the hub' for US operations in the Africa and the Middle East.
No NATO, are we still going to conduct operations in Africa and the Middle East?
Do you think Russia would have without massive support from the west? This war would have been over long ago.
The US is the unifying power for Europe. Turkey is Muslim and completely different than Finland. France is naturally hostile to anyone that doesn't accept them as the cultural elite. Poland and the Baltic States would never expect the French and Germans to come riding to their rescue. Heck, the idea of German tanks coming across their border is probably still viewed as much as a nightmare as Russian.
Germany spent over $1B to cover costs linked to US troops
The German government has paid more than $1 billion over the past decade to cover costs related to the stationing of U.S. troops in Germany, according to the finance ministry in Berlin.
www.militarytimes.com
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Because American military and economic might keeps everyone from blowing it all the f*ck up. I suppose we could turtle, if you want. Hard close the borders and create a little haven of peace surrounded by disaster. But outside our walls, the world burns.
Look, no one likes America. They either hate us or they grudgingly accept us as their protector, but they don't like us. But because we do what we do, the world keeps spinning. It's a joke that we spend more on the military than the next X countries combined, but there's a get for that. China doesn't invade Taiwan because of that. Russia keeps it's Russian ambitions relatively local because of that. Muslim countries play nice (and even help us against their more violent citizens) because of that.
Being the world's policeman isn't a point of pride. It's a job. It's a responsibility. Someone has to do it, so we do. It sucks. It makes people hate us and it costs a lot of money. But millions upon millions of people live because of it.
Don't forget the important aspect that foreigners own about $8 Trillion in US debt. They may not like us, but they still are happy to fund us and keep the US$ stable. It's like teenagers bitching about their parents that make the rules. You may not like it, but deep down you know that anarchy is a lot worse.
Yes I know that Europe is incapable of defending itself. It has no substantial defense industrial base. The UK does, but not a hell of a lot beyond that.
We want it that way. We've wanted it that way ever since the the end of two European based World Wars. For good reason. We don't trust they won't again turn them on each other if we allow them to ramp up a full scale war machine.
We've also never let Japan and Germany even think of re- militarizing. Two of the most advanced countries in the world technologically and economically.
Russia hasn't been to overrun Ukraine for one reason only, the US has provided immense amount of defense support. And it didn't start in the last 2 years.
A unified European army? WTF world does that exist in?
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Germany has quietly been ramping up it's defense spending and if you check the latest budget is heavily investing in it's industrial base. This years defense budget is seeing the largest increase in spending since WWII with more expected to come.
This is not only to bolster their defenses, but also to become a significant supplier of arms to Europe and a way to bolster their struggling economy.
Germany Says Its Defense Spending Could Increase to 3.5% of GDP
Germany could increase military spending to as much as 3.5% of economic output as it ramps up investment to reverse years of neglect of the armed forces, according to Defense Minister Boris Pistorius.
www.bloomberg.com
Germany's defense minister says NATO's 2% target is just the start: 'We'll probably need more'
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said that spending 2% of GDP on defense "can only be the start of it."
The other aspect that people seem to ignore is the absolute killing the US is making on defense sales. They are encouraging Eastern countries to give all their older equipment to Ukraine and replacing them with US equipment and all the maintenance contracts. The US stands to make Billions on these new contracts.
America is exporting more arms than ever. Here’s why.
Record arms exports are a sign of America’s commitment to Europe — and its foreign policy failures.
www.vox.com
Germany wants a piece of this pie and sees the investment in defense spending paying off huge down the line. Should be interesting to watch.
I believe that we need to have a "discussion" about what we are willing to defend and what that defense means. In a situation like Ukraine, we have given $70 billion in assistance already (with a request for $60 billion more) and the EU has given *$96 billion (they asterisk it themselves which leads me to believe that figure is being inflated and the DOD puts the military assistance at around $35 billion). Our allies in Europe don't have the military equipment but they do have money.
You know who doesn't have money right now? The country with a $34 Trillion debt that has added another $500 billion to that debt with FY24 deficit spending already (FY24 began on Oct 1). That is a pace to add more than another trillion to that debt by the end of September. This aid package we are debating to send Ukraine is another $60 billion in unfunded debt. Those saying that some American kids will have to fight Russia in the future have it all wrong. We won't be able to go and fight them because we won't have the economic wherewithal to support that.
Everyone clamoring to fund Ukraine's fight with Russia needs to get on the horn with their representatives and tell them it is time to raise revenue in the US or decide the one trillion and 60 billion worth of programs that they are going to cut so that we aren't heaping even more debt on ourselves.
US deficit to soar to $2.6tn in 10 years, says congressional watchdog
Budget office points to surge in government debt costs after pandemic-era fiscal splurge to prop up economies
I don't want the Russians to win in Ukraine but I am also put out by the Europeans not caring about things going on in their own backyard as much as we do from thousands of miles away. The Russians aren't going to invade North America. I don't think they have the power to make it past Poland in a land invasion whether we were involved or not. Not based on their anemic attack on Ukraine. And if the Europeans are willing to run to China at the first hint that we won't bankrupt ourselves to provide a defense for them that they aren't bothered to provide for themselves, then this is a shitty alliance built on sand.
Finally, what I do know is that the dollar is our biggest weapon and our spending is threatening its future value. If these things we do are truly important, we should be funding them. And I don't mean that by taxing the rich. I mean a regressive tax like a national sales tax that EVERYONE has to pay. I mean a significant decrease in government benefits paid out to able bodied people when there are jobs available everywhere. If we want to be the world police, we need to get our fiscal house in order. Both parties need to tax us for the things they say we need and then, when we are paying what this truly costs, we can have a real discussion about what we want our government to do.
In the case of Ukraine, I think we have the equipment and Europe has the money. Let them go into a little debt to provide for their own common defense by buying our gear.
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These increases have been in the works for a couple of years and have nothing to do with Trump’s threats to abandon allies to Russia if they don’t meet spending targetsGermany has quietly been ramping up it's defense spending and if you check the latest budget is heavily investing in it's industrial base. This years defense budget is seeing the largest increase in spending since WWII with more expected to come.
This is not only to bolster their defenses, but also to become a significant supplier of arms to Europe and a way to bolster their struggling economy.
Germany Says Its Defense Spending Could Increase to 3.5% of GDP
Germany could increase military spending to as much as 3.5% of economic output as it ramps up investment to reverse years of neglect of the armed forces, according to Defense Minister Boris Pistorius.
Germany's defense minister says NATO's 2% target is just the start: 'We'll probably need more'
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said that spending 2% of GDP on defense "can only be the start of it."www.cnbc.com
The other aspect that people seem to ignore is the absolute killing the US is making on defense sales. They are encouraging Eastern countries to give all their older equipment to Ukraine and replacing them with US equipment and all the maintenance contracts. The US stands to make Billions on these new contracts.
America is exporting more arms than ever. Here’s why.
Record arms exports are a sign of America’s commitment to Europe — and its foreign policy failures.
Germany wants a piece of this pie and sees the investment in defense spending paying off huge down the line. Should be interesting to watch.
When was the last time Article 5 was invoked and who came to who's help? Look that up and get back to us before you start spouting about who pays what.
History repeats itself. Always has. Always will. The US will have another 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc. I sure hope we haven't pissed away all of our alliances by then.
History repeats itself. Always has. Always will. The US will have another 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc. I sure hope we haven't pissed away all of our alliances by then.
Then tell our foot soldiers and the public that’s why we risk their lives. Fair?
I just don’t agree. I think Russia was built up as this great power and they’ve demonstrated over the last two years they were a paper tiger. I think many haven’t adapted their defense/geopolitical views to this new data.
The Military Industrial Intelligence Complex is prepared to let Ukraine be destroyed and 'allied' nations be plunged into grinding poverty to achieve it's bloody war needs
Is it unreasonable to think maybe we shouldn’t want to, or don’t necessarily need to, conduct “operations” in Africa and the Middle East to defend our nation? Is it really true that the peace and stability of the entire world is dependent on our military might being able to reach every corner of the globe? How do we test that hypothesis? Do we just assume it’s true? (I’m good at asking questions. Not good at answering any of these.)
Qatar isn’t in NATO. We have bases there. Ditto S. Korea, etc. Why do we need to pay for Europe’s defense in order to have bases there? Wouldn’t they welcome them as a deterrent from attacks by Russia, et al?
I want to believe that narrative. But I’m skeptical of it because it is (1) the narrative all superpowers might tell themselves to make them feel good about themselves, and (2) untestable.
Israel answers your rhetorical question.
It is all in Israel's national interest.
Without Israel, the US would have a much more difficult task projecting military power.
And in the absence of Israel, the US has no interest in the ME, therefore no reason to project military power.
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Actually, they are both very typical personalities of many officers I knew in the military.
A lot of them were blustery and full of self-importance. Others were glad-handing ass kissers who schmoozed their way up through the ranks. I'll let you decide which one relates to each. lol
The military, in peace time, is not much different than any other large, decentralized organization. There are fiefdoms and power grabs all the time. People move up to their level of incompetence.
But when hostilities break out and lives are on the line, those types are quickly bounced out or sent to the rear. The real 'doers' move up and it's the closest thing to a meritocracy there is.
I don't get this paragraph, how are we paying for Europe's defense and not Qatar's or South Korea's? Nothing NATO stops us from cutting to 2%. That article showed Germany spent a lot modernizing our bases, does that count toward their defense? I don't know.
A large part of our expense is naval, keeping shipping lanes open. US corps are very dependent on the world's resources. We saw problems in our supply chains when the Suez closed when the cargo ships ran aground.
If we want to pull back, let's cut to 2% or less and come home. I have argued for defense cuts in the past, it wasn't liberals telling me it is dangerous. If we want out, let us pass a 2% budget and come home. Or pass 2% and stay in NATO . I am not sure, how many conservatives want the defense budget lowered to 2%?
You raise a good point: what does it even mean to claim we are paying for Europe's defense?
...absolute killing....Germany has quietly been ramping up it's defense spending and if you check the latest budget is heavily investing in it's industrial base. This years defense budget is seeing the largest increase in spending since WWII with more expected to come.
This is not only to bolster their defenses, but also to become a significant supplier of arms to Europe and a way to bolster their struggling economy.
Germany Says Its Defense Spending Could Increase to 3.5% of GDP
Germany could increase military spending to as much as 3.5% of economic output as it ramps up investment to reverse years of neglect of the armed forces, according to Defense Minister Boris Pistorius.
Germany's defense minister says NATO's 2% target is just the start: 'We'll probably need more'
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said that spending 2% of GDP on defense "can only be the start of it."
The other aspect that people seem to ignore is the absolute killing the US is making on defense sales. They are encouraging Eastern countries to give all their older equipment to Ukraine and replacing them with US equipment and all the maintenance contracts. The US stands to make Billions on these new contracts.
America is exporting more arms than ever. Here’s why.
Record arms exports are a sign of America’s commitment to Europe — and its foreign policy failures.
Germany wants a piece of this pie and sees the investment in defense spending paying off huge down the line. Should be interesting to watch.
Even a blind sow finds an acorn.....
If the US we're not in Taiwan, do you think China would have taken it by now? Would North Korea have tried South Korea? The North attacked the first time because our SoS gave a speech drawing our line in the sand and didn't draw it through Korea. So we know of one case it specifically happened.
Mind you, it should fall to the UN but we created a spineless entity.
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