Long-Term View

[DANC]

Of course I did. His senior year was my Freshman year. I remember Woodson using the glass a lot too, but remember he was out for a lot of his senior year. I saw Kitchel play a lot more since he graduated same year as I did so he made a bigger impression on me as far as banking in his jumpers. Loved to watch both of them play.

Both great players, for sure. I used to watch Ted in high school and I never thought he'd be the shooter he was at IU, since he mainly played Center for Lewis Cass. Not only was he a great shooter, but he had a killer attitude - he was very tough mentally.

Woody was just steady as a rock all 4 years. Big Ten POY, even though he missed 6 games to back surgery. I would say 70% of his shots were off the glass. He was really a remarkable shooter.

Those were the days.....

PS I thought you were younger than that. Did you know Kitch has Parkinson's?

 

[turney333]

Yes, we need players that relish that last second shot (see Harper jr. In our game)

Doesn't even need to be last second shots, just willingness to shoot in the last 2-3 minutes outside of forcing something to beat the shot clock

 

[DANC]

Doesn't even need to be last second shots, just willingness to shoot in the last 2-3 minutes outside of forcing something to beat the shot clock

I'm trying to remember the last guy we had who would shoot the clutch shot and be counted on to make it.

Jordy Hulls?

 

[turney333]

I'm trying to remember the last guy we had who would shoot the clutch shot and be counted on to make it.

Jordy Hulls?

Yogi

 

[B1G_Fan]

I'm trying to remember the last guy we had who would shoot the clutch shot and be counted on to make it.

Jordy Hulls?

JBJ

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Both great players, for sure. I used to watch Ted in high school and I never thought he'd be the shooter he was at IU, since he mainly played Center for Lewis Cass. Not only was he a great shooter, but he had a killer attitude - he was very tough mentally.

Woody was just steady as a rock all 4 years. Big Ten POY, even though he missed 6 games to back surgery. I would say 70% of his shots were off the glass. He was really a remarkable shooter.

Those were the days.....

PS I thought you were younger than that. Did you know Kitch has Parkinson's?

I didn't know that about Kitch and I hate hear about him having Parkinson's. He was tough as nails and one of my favorite players along with Woodson, Thomas, Cheaney, Henderson, Alford, Bailey, . . . hell, too many to list.

 

[Hoosier Clarion]

Woodson from early on coached good defensive play results. Even better D from upperclassmen who Coach Miller couldn't coach the best out of. 2nd in line progressing positively was turnovers and game total #'s remaining solidly acceptable. Now better #'s indicate FT shooting is trending better. I add that to noted player development; Race, TG, X, TJD's "D", and Durr, Bates, Geronimo possessing some promise tells me Coach Woodson and his staff are making a favorable impact with the program. A lot in play as far as personnel for 2k22-23 but I have nothing but confidence this HC and staff can produce improved results.
Go HOOSIERS!!
Whip Meatchicken!!!

 

[DANC]

Woodson from early on coached good defensive play results. Even better D from upperclassmen who Coach Miller couldn't coach the best out of. 2nd in line progressing positively was turnovers and game total #'s remaining solidly acceptable. Now better #'s indicate FT shooting is trending better. I add that to noted player development; Race, TG, X, TJD's "D", and Durr, Bates, Geronimo possessing some promise tells me Coach Woodson and his staff are making a favorable impact with the program. A lot in play as far as personnel for 2k22-23 but I have nothing but confidence this HC and staff can produce improved results.
Go HOOSIERS!!
Whip Meatchicken!!!

X has made a marked improvement over the season. Thompson has been a solid player - he just needs to cut out the mental mistakes. TJD is solid, but I can't say I've seen a marked improvement this year.

Other than those 3, I haven't seen much improvement in the offense. I've seen promise, but not much improvement over the course of the year.

Defense is a different story - it's been very good, and excellent at times. I would expect nothing more from Woodson and Fife, having learned defense at the feet of the master.

Kudos to the players and staff, though, for MUCH improved Free Throw shooting that last 4 or 5 games. This has to be worth 8 to 10 points a game, which is huge.

Outside shooting..... bleh. Still.

Get this team to cut out the mental mistakes and they could be very good. When they really focus, as they obviously did both games with Purdue - they can play with anybody.

I also noted Fife has been in players' ears during Time Outs more lately than he was the first of the year - I hope that continues.

I'm not happy with how this year went, but Woody is definitely not Archie 2.0.

 

[IUNorth]

There’s something to that point.

a sports psychologist might help (and I am serious). It’s been an issue for years. Whether they expect to lose, are relieved to lose, etc.., it’s clearly an issue.

I remember when the Cubs lost that playoff game when Bartman (fan in stands) caught that foul ball. I told a bunch of Cubs fans that I thought the Cubs were relieved to have had that happen, that it gave them an excuse to lose. Of course they thought I was nuts, but who knows. The mind is a powerful thing: for good or bad.

My opinion on this is "winning" is baked into the cake. Its foundational. Obviously you can help your cause by recruiting "winners". In basketball, a singular player can have a much larger impact on whether a team wins or loses, than team sports like football or baseball. So you can win ball games in basketball, without a winning culture being baked into your cake. But its rare, and its not repeatable or reliable.

Tom Crean is a prime example of this. I don't think he does, basically anything, for a basketball program that's trying to create long term, reliable success. When he hits on recruits, he has success. Dwayde, Cody, Vic, Yogi, Bryant, Troy Williams...when he hasn't had kids like that, he hasn't had success. Heck, even when he has had kids like that, he's had bad years...Anthony Edwards as a prime example.

The question I'm asking myself right now...is Woodson establishing a winning culture? Did that start at his first team meeting? Did he lay out expectations that day that lead to reliable, repeatable success? Always being on time, competing at 100 percent on every rep, focusing on your own duties and jobs, not being o.k. with mental laziness and/or mistakes...etc... Programs like Wisconsin, Kansas, Baylor now seemingly, Duke, Purdue lately...they're all VERY different in their approach. There's a wide difference in talent levels, types of players, styles of play. So why are they all consistently very successful? I think its because those programs focus on foundational things that expect/demand their players to pay attention to, and are held accountable to, on a daily basis...heck on an individual rep basis. And that practice and mindset becomes so engrained into their basketball DNA, that when they're on the road, late in February, and find themselves needing to make winning plays late in a game...they're relying on them to execute habitual things that they've all done literally thousands of times, over and over and over again. They're not relying on kids to "get hot", or "rise to the occasion"...just do your job the way you've done it countless times before, and we'll be fine.

The things above can take some time. There are countless examples of great coaches that didn't have great years in their first seasons...or even first couple seasons. So I hope Woodson is building a winning culture. It doesn't appear that he is, from the results we're seeing on the court. From some of the off the court issues this team has had. Many people lauded Coach Woodson for the NW games suspensions. Saying he's "building a culture"... My comeback to that would be...He should have had a culture built before that, starting back in July when they all got together for Bahamas...that would have created an environment where those kids wouldn't have made those decisions in the first place that night.

There are improvements though. So despite the visual evidence to the contrary. I'm hanging on a few things to keep me optimistic about the direction of Woody's program. Defense, turnovers, free throws, and creating and taking good shots. I don't think there's any question all of these things have improved as the season has wore on. Visually they look like they have. I'm sure the numbers back that up, mostly, though I haven't really looked closely at them.

So maybe with a full offseason, and a year under his belt, Woody will be able to build on these improvements, make them become more foundational, and repeatable, and continue to establish new "floors".

I'm MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less worried about who stays, and who he gets to replace who leaves, than I am about the things I wrote about above.

 

[turney333]

My opinion on this is "winning" is baked into the cake. Its foundational. Obviously you can help your cause by recruiting "winners". In basketball, a singular player can have a much larger impact on whether a team wins or loses, than team sports like football or baseball. So you can win ball games in basketball, without a winning culture being baked into your cake. But its rare, and its not repeatable or reliable.

Tom Crean is a prime example of this. I don't think he does, basically anything, for a basketball program that's trying to create long term, reliable success. When he hits on recruits, he has success. Dwayde, Cody, Vic, Yogi, Bryant, Troy Williams...when he hasn't had kids like that, he hasn't had success. Heck, even when he has had kids like that, he's had bad years...Anthony Edwards as a prime example.

The question I'm asking myself right now...is Woodson establishing a winning culture? Did that start at his first team meeting? Did he lay out expectations that day that lead to reliable, repeatable success? Always being on time, competing at 100 percent on every rep, focusing on your own duties and jobs, not being o.k. with mental laziness and/or mistakes...etc... Programs like Wisconsin, Kansas, Baylor now seemingly, Duke, Purdue lately...they're all VERY different in their approach. There's a wide difference in talent levels, types of players, styles of play. So why are they all consistently very successful? I think its because those programs focus on foundational things that expect/demand their players to pay attention to, and are held accountable to, on a daily basis...heck on an individual rep basis. And that practice and mindset becomes so engrained into their basketball DNA, that when they're on the road, late in February, and find themselves needing to make winning plays late in a game...they're relying on them to execute habitual things that they've all done literally thousands of times, over and over and over again. They're not relying on kids to "get hot", or "rise to the occasion"...just do your job the way you've done it countless times before, and we'll be fine.

The things above can take some time. There are countless examples of great coaches that didn't have great years in their first seasons...or even first couple seasons. So I hope Woodson is building a winning culture. It doesn't appear that he is, from the results we're seeing on the court. From some of the off the court issues this team has had. Many people lauded Coach Woodson for the NW games suspensions. Saying he's "building a culture"... My comeback to that would be...He should have had a culture built before that, starting back in July when they all got together for Bahamas...that would have created an environment where those kids wouldn't have made those decisions in the first place that night.

There are improvements though. So despite the visual evidence to the contrary. I'm hanging on a few things to keep me optimistic about the direction of Woody's program. Defense, turnovers, free throws, and creating and taking good shots. I don't think there's any question all of these things have improved as the season has wore on. Visually they look like they have. I'm sure the numbers back that up, mostly, though I haven't really looked closely at them.

So maybe with a full offseason, and a year under his belt, Woody will be able to build on these improvements, make them become more foundational, and repeatable, and continue to establish new "floors".

I'm MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less worried about who stays, and who he gets to replace who leaves, than I am about the things I wrote about above.

One major caveat has been injuries. While to some extent, injuries are a part of the game and its next man up. But at least this year, no other BT is even close to IU in injuries. Looking at middle of the pack BT teams and their primary rotation absences during the conference schedule: A lot of these aren't even injuries, just illnesses that probably weren't much of an issue to rebound from. Phin has technically been back the last 3 games, but was nowhere near 100%

MSU hasn't had a single primary rotation player miss a conference game.
Rutgers had Baker miss 2 games - they did beat Pur, but then got destroyed by Ill
OSU had Key miss 2 games and Wheeler 1 - they did win 2 of those (Minnesota and a solid win against MSU), but they also had a terrible loss to Nebraska
Iowa had C McCaff miss 2 (both wins against Minn), P McCaff missed 2 (win against NW loss to Ill), and Keegan missed a loss to Purdue
Mich seemed to do the best despite injuries - Diabate missed wins against Neb and Rutgers and Dickinson missed win against OSU and loss against Ill

Some of those absences (eg Keegan Murray and Dickinson) were certainly much more of a loss than Phin/Galloway for IU, but they also weren't out for prolonged periods of time.

Its no surprise that IU's 2 best wins of the season happened during the short span when IU had both Phin and Galloway.

 

[MikeHoncho69]

My opinion on this is "winning" is baked into the cake. Its foundational. Obviously you can help your cause by recruiting "winners". In basketball, a singular player can have a much larger impact on whether a team wins or loses, than team sports like football or baseball. So you can win ball games in basketball, without a winning culture being baked into your cake. But its rare, and its not repeatable or reliable.

Tom Crean is a prime example of this. I don't think he does, basically anything, for a basketball program that's trying to create long term, reliable success. When he hits on recruits, he has success. Dwayde, Cody, Vic, Yogi, Bryant, Troy Williams...when he hasn't had kids like that, he hasn't had success. Heck, even when he has had kids like that, he's had bad years...Anthony Edwards as a prime example.

The question I'm asking myself right now...is Woodson establishing a winning culture? Did that start at his first team meeting? Did he lay out expectations that day that lead to reliable, repeatable success? Always being on time, competing at 100 percent on every rep, focusing on your own duties and jobs, not being o.k. with mental laziness and/or mistakes...etc... Programs like Wisconsin, Kansas, Baylor now seemingly, Duke, Purdue lately...they're all VERY different in their approach. There's a wide difference in talent levels, types of players, styles of play. So why are they all consistently very successful? I think its because those programs focus on foundational things that expect/demand their players to pay attention to, and are held accountable to, on a daily basis...heck on an individual rep basis. And that practice and mindset becomes so engrained into their basketball DNA, that when they're on the road, late in February, and find themselves needing to make winning plays late in a game...they're relying on them to execute habitual things that they've all done literally thousands of times, over and over and over again. They're not relying on kids to "get hot", or "rise to the occasion"...just do your job the way you've done it countless times before, and we'll be fine.

The things above can take some time. There are countless examples of great coaches that didn't have great years in their first seasons...or even first couple seasons. So I hope Woodson is building a winning culture. It doesn't appear that he is, from the results we're seeing on the court. From some of the off the court issues this team has had. Many people lauded Coach Woodson for the NW games suspensions. Saying he's "building a culture"... My comeback to that would be...He should have had a culture built before that, starting back in July when they all got together for Bahamas...that would have created an environment where those kids wouldn't have made those decisions in the first place that night.

There are improvements though. So despite the visual evidence to the contrary. I'm hanging on a few things to keep me optimistic about the direction of Woody's program. Defense, turnovers, free throws, and creating and taking good shots. I don't think there's any question all of these things have improved as the season has wore on. Visually they look like they have. I'm sure the numbers back that up, mostly, though I haven't really looked closely at them.

So maybe with a full offseason, and a year under his belt, Woody will be able to build on these improvements, make them become more foundational, and repeatable, and continue to establish new "floors".

I'm MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less worried about who stays, and who he gets to replace who leaves, than I am about the things I wrote about above.

Very, very well said. Obviously, none of us on this board are able to be firsthand witnesses to what goes on within the program on a daily basis. To your point, my hope is that Woodson has established a culture where discipline is key and that the little things are done right by each player day in and day out. That seems to be the expectation at programs such as Wisconsin and Purdue.

With Woodson being a product of Knight's school of hard knocks, it wouldn't surprise me to see a very similar culture being implemented by Woodson. What's important to keep in mind is that a culture is not instilled overnight. It is developed gradually over the course of time. Transitioning from whatever the culture was under Archie (I would love for someone to define what it even was) to Woodson's culture is going to take time. I believe patience from the fans will eventually pay off.

 

[iueyedoc99]

25% * 3 = 0.75 Pts/Shot << 45% * 2 = 0.9 PTs/shot < 35% * 3 = 1.05 PTs/shot.
With our performances some games, there were games IU should have never taken a 3 pt shot,
considering the expected value of the results.

Seeing X playing under control for a whole season should be amazing next year.

I love using a “Moneyball” (ie statistical) approach to improving sports results, I will just point out that for your formula to be fully accurate you have to account for some other factors…first, the extra FT on tres improves the expected production slightly, also on most teams tres result in more offensive rebounds per attempt. The downside is that most 2 pointers are shots in the post/paint or dunks/layups all of which typically result in more fouls and get you in the bonus quicker than tres.

Having said all that it’s hard to find highly successful basketball teams at any level past elementary school that don’t shoot it well from three.

 

[Al Bino]

I think the Big Ten has pretty much always had parity far beyond that of the other major conferences. Individual seasons might lack parity at times, but there is a historic ebb and flow of teams rising and falling.

Over the weekend, I was looking at sports-reference and found some interesting historical stats. If you go back to the 1949 season (first for the AP Poll), then take out the Knight years (1972-2000) IU only comes in 6th in the conference (ahead of Iowa, Michigan, Minny and NW), but only OSU, Illinois and MSU have more than a 5 game lead over IU.

Since Bobby Leonard hit the free throw to take down the Jayhawks in 53, IU is only 338-337 vs Big Ten opponents (BTT included) after you take out the Knight years.

This is just an historically tough league, which I think can make it difficult to evaluate a coach based on one year. Most nights you are facing teams with pretty well established cultures/identities. Year 1 for a new staff is baptism by fire in the Big 10. It helps if you are stepping into a good situation where you are going to build on an already established culture.

That said, I'm super disappointed with the way this year turned out so far, but I'm still more optimistic than pessimistic about the future

Just goes to show how important the coach. Also sadly backs up what one poster said years ago - "There is nothing special in the water in Bton".
We just have to find that next "coach" because there is nothing inherently basketball elite about IU. Sucks to type that but.....

 

[IUNorth]

One major caveat has been injuries. While to some extent, injuries are a part of the game and its next man up. But at least this year, no other BT is even close to IU in injuries. Looking at middle of the pack BT teams and their primary rotation absences during the conference schedule: A lot of these aren't even injuries, just illnesses that probably weren't much of an issue to rebound from. Phin has technically been back the last 3 games, but was nowhere near 100%

MSU hasn't had a single primary rotation player miss a conference game.
Rutgers had Baker miss 2 games - they did beat Pur, but then got destroyed by Ill
OSU had Key miss 2 games and Wheeler 1 - they did win 2 of those (Minnesota and a solid win against MSU), but they also had a terrible loss to Nebraska
Iowa had C McCaff miss 2 (both wins against Minn), P McCaff missed 2 (win against NW loss to Ill), and Keegan missed a loss to Purdue
Mich seemed to do the best despite injuries - Diabate missed wins against Neb and Rutgers and Dickinson missed win against OSU and loss against Ill

Some of those absences (eg Keegan Murray and Dickinson) were certainly much more of a loss than Phin/Galloway for IU, but they also weren't out for prolonged periods of time.

Its no surprise that IU's 2 best wins of the season happened during the short span when IU had both Phin and Galloway.

Injuries have hurt us more than most other peer schools, to be sure. My "flip side" to that would be we haven't really lost any of our starters due to injury. And while it obviously would have helped to have Rob and Trey for every game, we put ourselves in a good position to win nearly all of the games they missed, and couldn't close those games out...similarly to how we couldn't close out some games when everyone was healthy.

We have to take the good with the bad, I guess. This years team, quite obviously, is more complete and more competitive than last years team was. So there likely are aspects of Woody's program, that are improving the culture and competitiveness. Somehow, Woody and his staff need to figure out what's causing our late 2nd half woes, and really dig in to improve in those areas, and hammer those improvements home, with thousands of reps, reminders, etc... between now and the start of next year.

Just think how different we'd all be talking and feeling right now had we closed out Syracuse, Wisconsin twice, OSU, Rutgers, and the 2nd Purdue game. Whatever Woodson worked on within his program, it did produce a team that had ALL those games in hand late in the game...or at least all very winnable if basic, good basketball plays and decisions continue to be made through the ends of those games.

If he can now push that to the next step, and flush out the mistakes or mentality that's leading to those mistakes...we'll be alright.

 

[ams66]

Very, very well said. Obviously, none of us on this board are able to be firsthand witnesses to what goes on within the program on a daily basis. To your point, my hope is that Woodson has established a culture where discipline is key and that the little things are done right by each player day in and day out. That seems to be the expectation at programs such as Wisconsin and Purdue.

With Woodson being a product of Knight's school of hard knocks, it wouldn't surprise me to see a very similar culture being implemented by Woodson. What's important to keep in mind is that a culture is not instilled overnight. It is developed gradually over the course of time. Transitioning from whatever the culture was under Archie (I would love for someone to define what it even was) to Woodson's culture is going to take time. I believe patience from the fans will eventually pay off.

Also Woodson spent a career in the NBA, where some guys are no doubt prima donnas but they are also more mature, grown men, professionals, and every one of them more talented than the average player even at Kansas, Baylor, or Duke. He will need to adjust and figure out what he needs to do to instill discipline into college players, some just out of high school, who may not have ever really be held to a high standard in that regard. Hopefully he remembers and falls back on how his college coach ran things, but it will still be an adjustment for him, being on the other side of it now.

 

[Al Bino]

Both great players, for sure. I used to watch Ted in high school and I never thought he'd be the shooter he was at IU, since he mainly played Center for Lewis Cass. Not only was he a great shooter, but he had a killer attitude - he was very tough mentally.

Woody was just steady as a rock all 4 years. Big Ten POY, even though he missed 6 games to back surgery. I would say 70% of his shots were off the glass. He was really a remarkable shooter.

Those were the days.....

PS I thought you were younger than that. Did you know Kitch has Parkinson's?

Yes, very sad about Ted. Terrible disease.

Your recollection is different than mine in regards to where Ted played in HS. I remember sitting in the stands bitching because he was always outside instead of on the block! The outside part served him well at IU.

 

[turney333]

Injuries have hurt us more than most other peer schools, to be sure. My "flip side" to that would be we haven't really lost any of our starters due to injury. And while it obviously would have helped to have Rob and Trey for every game, we put ourselves in a good position to win nearly all of the games they missed, and couldn't close those games out...similarly to how we couldn't close out some games when everyone was healthy.

We have to take the good with the bad, I guess. This years team, quite obviously, is more complete and more competitive than last years team was. So there likely are aspects of Woody's program, that are improving the culture and competitiveness. Somehow, Woody and his staff need to figure out what's causing our late 2nd half woes, and really dig in to improve in those areas, and hammer those improvements home, with thousands of reps, reminders, etc... between now and the start of next year.

Just think how different we'd all be talking and feeling right now had we closed out Syracuse, Wisconsin twice, OSU, Rutgers, and the 2nd Purdue game. Whatever Woodson worked on within his program, it did produce a team that had ALL those games in hand late in the game...or at least all very winnable if basic, good basketball plays and decisions continue to be made through the ends of those games.

If he can now push that to the next step, and flush out the mistakes or mentality that's leading to those mistakes...we'll be alright.

Games we couldn't close out when everyone was healthy

Iowa

End of list

Our only other loss when everyone was healthy was Mich, which was the let down game after the Purdue win

Losses to Wisconsin (both games), PSU, OSU, Rutgers, Purdue, Syracuse that IU didn't close out all had either Galloway or Phin out (OSU had both out)

Also, Galloway had worked in his way into the starting lineup the last 4 or 5 games before his injury and both Phin and Galloway were on the floor more Kopp/Stewart the last 7-8 minutes if they were healthy, and were a lock to be on the floor the last 2 minutes. They were as close to "starters" as you can get and were viewed as more critical than 2 actual starters down the stretch

Should we have still managed to win a few of those? Sure, but its not just that injuries hurt IU more than most peer schools - injuries hurt us more than several of our peer schools COMBINED

 

[IUNorth]

Games we couldn't close out when everyone was healthy

Iowa

End of list

Our only other loss when everyone was healthy was Mich, which was the let down game after the Purdue win

Losses to Wisconsin (both games), PSU, OSU, Rutgers, Purdue, Syracuse that IU didn't close out all had either Galloway or Phin out (OSU had both out)

Also, Galloway had worked in his way into the starting lineup the last 4 or 5 games before his injury and both Phin and Galloway were on the floor more Kopp/Stewart the last 7-8 minutes if they were healthy, and were a lock to be on the floor the last 2 minutes. They were as close to "starters" as you can get and were viewed as more critical than 2 actual starters down the stretch

Should we have still managed to win a few of those? Sure, but its not just that injuries hurt IU more than most peer schools - injuries hurt us more than several of our peer schools COMBINED

Good points. I hadn't realized one of them was out for ALL of those games you listed. We probably haven't had very many meaningful games all year then where they've both been healthy.

 

[DANC]

Just goes to show how important the coach. Also sadly backs up what one poster said years ago - "There is nothing special in the water in Bton".
We just have to find that next "coach" because there is nothing inherently basketball elite about IU. Sucks to type that but.....

The water used to be special.

It just got polluted.

 

[DANC]

Yes, very sad about Ted. Terrible disease.

Your recollection is different than mine in regards to where Ted played in HS. I remember sitting in the stands bitching because he was always outside instead of on the block! The outside part served him well at IU.

You might be thinking about his cousin, Jon, who played forward and was a good outside shooter.

Ted played Center.

 

[papawboog]

About 2/3 of the way through the season, I heard TJD doing an interview the day after a tough loss. He was essentially asked "What do you guys need to do to finish games?'. He said something like 'Well it's tough because this group of players has never won anything'. He wasn't upset or being snarky....just matter of fact. Yikes.

A lot of truth in that statement. Part of the problem I see with this team is they don't know how to win close games. A coach can put them in a position to win but it takes the players to accomplish it. JMO, but this team doesn't have a player that wants the ball when the game is on the line, like J Davis or Harper Jr.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Early in the season, FTs did cost us some games, but interestingly, over the last 4 losses, IU was shooting 78% from the line

FTs and TOs are two areas of strong improvement

 

[Al Bino]

You might be thinking about his cousin, Jon, who played forward and was a good outside shooter.

Ted played Center.

Not at the games I went to. At least he didn't exclusively play center. Ben Golden played a lot inside. Ted shot a LOT outside.

 

[DANC]

Not at the games I went to. At least he didn't exclusively play center. Ben Golden played a lot inside. Ted shot a LOT outside.

Interesting. I didn't see him shooting outside much, but maybe it depended on the opponent.

 

[turney333]

Good points. I hadn't realized one of them was out for ALL of those games you listed. We probably haven't had very many meaningful games all year then where they've both been healthy.

Also, while a decent team should probably be expected to overcome injuries setbacks better than IU did this year, it’s hard to fault Woodson since he didn’t have much control over building the roster and was scrambling to add what he did. A scenario like this year definitely falls at the feet of a coach with a more established tenure at a school

 

[TomEric4756]

I love using a “Moneyball” (ie statistical) approach to improving sports results, I will just point out that for your formula to be fully accurate you have to account for some other factors…first, the extra FT on tres improves the expected production slightly, also on most teams tres result in more offensive rebounds per attempt. The downside is that most 2 pointers are shots in the post/paint or dunks/layups all of which typically result in more fouls and get you in the bonus quicker than tres.

Having said all that it’s hard to find highly successful basketball teams at any level past elementary school that don’t shoot it well from three.

[ 25% * 3 = 0.75 Pts/Shot << 45% * 2 = 0.9 PTs/shot < 35% * 3 = 1.05 PTs/shot.]
… was more about illustrating how poor 3-pt FG% was in several games this year, Saturday’s included.
Often, it only takes two or three makes in a row to get above the Mendoza line, so teams keep shooting.
It often comes down to the catch, muff the catch - out of rhythm, pass it on … don’t shoot anyway.

 

[MikeHoncho69]

Also Woodson spent a career in the NBA, where some guys are no doubt prima donnas but they are also more mature, grown men, professionals, and every one of them more talented than the average player even at Kansas, Baylor, or Duke. He will need to adjust and figure out what he needs to do to instill discipline into college players, some just out of high school, who may not have ever really be held to a high standard in that regard. Hopefully he remembers and falls back on how his college coach ran things, but it will still be an adjustment for him, being on the other side of it now.

Right. While the game is the same, the NBA is a completely different animal than the college game. NBA assistants are tasked with breaking down film and scouting the next opponent. Instilling a culture, developing young people, building a program, etc. are all new for Mike Woodson. That's not to say he's not capable of doing it. In fact, I believe he's more than capable. However, I always felt as if his first season would be a major learning curve for Woodson. If anything, Dane Fife should have been and continue to be a tremendous resource for Woodson, having been Tom Izzo's right hand man in East Lansing for 10 years.

It will be interesting to see what the program looks like next season, both from an on-court perspective and culture perspective.

 

[DANC]

Right. While the game is the same, the NBA is a completely different animal than the college game. NBA assistants are tasked with breaking down film and scouting the next opponent. Instilling a culture, developing young people, building a program, etc. are all new for Mike Woodson. That's not to say he's not capable of doing it. In fact, I believe he's more than capable. However, I always felt as if his first season would be a major learning curve for Woodson. If anything, Dane Fife should have been and continue to be a tremendous resource for Woodson, having been Tom Izzo's right hand man in East Lansing for 10 years.

It will be interesting to see what the program looks like next season, both from an on-court perspective and culture perspective.

I think we'll see a mentally tougher team next year. I see signs of it this year, but I think it will really come out next year.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Right. While the game is the same, the NBA is a completely different animal than the college game. NBA assistants are tasked with breaking down film and scouting the next opponent. Instilling a culture, developing young people, building a program, etc. are all new for Mike Woodson. That's not to say he's not capable of doing it. In fact, I believe he's more than capable. However, I always felt as if his first season would be a major learning curve for Woodson. If anything, Dane Fife should have been and continue to be a tremendous resource for Woodson, having been Tom Izzo's right hand man in East Lansing for 10 years.

It will be interesting to see what the program looks like next season, both from an on-court perspective and culture perspective.

Your comment about the importance of Fife makes me ever more concerned about the rumors of the relationship between the 2. Dakich, who communicates regularly with Fife, lamented on Monday something to the effect of, “Yeah, I don’t think Woody is all that into Dane”.

 

[DANC]

Your comment about the importance of Fife makes me ever more concerned about the rumors of the relationship between the 2. Dakich, who communicates regularly with Fife, lamented on Monday something to the effect of, “Yeah, I don’t think Woody is all that into Dane”.

You would think Thad Matta would provide some direction.

Woody might be concerned Fife would be 'next man up' if he doesn't get results.

 

[Brewskie]

[ 25% * 3 = 0.75 Pts/Shot << 45% * 2 = 0.9 PTs/shot < 35% * 3 = 1.05 PTs/shot.]
… was more about illustrating how poor 3-pt FG% was in several games this year, Saturday’s included.
Often, it only takes two or three makes in a row to get above the Mendoza line, so teams keep shooting.
It often comes down to the catch, muff the catch - out of rhythm, pass it on … don’t shoot anyway.

Ding Ding, yes, it seems way too often our passes to our shooters are not good. At their feet, above their head, to the side, we don't seem to be good at giving our shooters good passes that keeps them in rhythm.

 

[Hoosier Clarion]

Also, while a decent team should probably be expected to overcome injuries setbacks better than IU did this year, it’s hard to fault Woodson since he didn’t have much control over building the roster and was scrambling to add what he did. A scenario like this year definitely falls at the feet of a coach with a more established tenure at a school

Congrats, a most appropriate analysis. That's been my outlook since the Bahamas trip.

 

[turney333]

Your comment about the importance of Fife makes me ever more concerned about the rumors of the relationship between the 2. Dakich, who communicates regularly with Fife, lamented on Monday something to the effect of, “Yeah, I don’t think Woody is all that into Dane”.

Meh, you always have to take Dakich with a grain of salt. He does have connections, but he also throws out vague semi-provocative off-handed comments like that because he's knows it will circulate and get him clicks.

 

[Hoosier Clarion]

Your comment about the importance of Fife makes me ever more concerned about the rumors of the relationship between the 2. Dakich, who communicates regularly with Fife, lamented on Monday something to the effect of, “Yeah, I don’t think Woody is all that into Dane”.

There is no way a class character like DF says anything disparaging about his boss. To anyone. Let alone a garbage salesman. He understands what undertones do to a program. I don't buy the gossip 1 iota. ZIP!

 

[MikeHoncho69]

There is no way a class character like DF says anything disparaging about his boss. To anyone. Let alone a garbage salesman. He understands what undertones do to a program. I don't buy the gossip 1 iota. ZIP!

Agreed. Sure, Woodson and Fife may have had disagreements over the course of a season, but is that a sign of dysfunction? Not if you ask me. I'm sure losing games is frustrating for all involved, and any disagreements likely stem from the same burning desire to win in both Woodson and Fife.

 

[susyq]

Indiana had plenty of talent this year, we should have made the tournament this year. Played a 30-game schedule only 2x all season where we beat handily, problem is those 2 teams stand in front of us. Woodson lost 3 or 4 games this year at the 12-8-minute marks in the game. Too often he had Durr out there with 2 or 3 other non-scores and race and Tracye on the bench together. There is no way in hell next year's roster will have more talent than this years, So how do you expect better results?

Seriously? Not starting Kopp and Stewart and putting two freshman (JHS and Banks) or Bates/JG has to be big time improvement. They clearly all have more skill sets than Kopp/Stewart debacle.

 

[MikeHoncho69]

Seriously? Not starting Kopp and Stewart and putting two freshman (JHS and Banks) or Bates/JG has to be big time improvement. They clearly all have more skill sets than Kopp/Stewart debacle.

Depending on who stays and leaves after the season, I'd like to see a starting five next season of:

- Xavier Johnson
- Tamar Bates
- Jalen Hood-Schifino
- Race Thompson (assuming he stays based on his comments earlier this week)
- Michael Durr

The only issue with that lineup is whether the outside shooting would be consistent. I would need to bank on Bates (28.6%) and Thompson (24.4%) improving from three in the off-season. Additionally, Hood-Schifino would need to be consistent from day one...

 

[B1G_Fan]

Depending on who stays and leaves after the season, I'd like to see a starting five next season of:

- Xavier Johnson
- Tamar Bates
- Jalen Hood-Schifino
- Race Thompson (assuming he stays based on his comments earlier this week)
- Michael Durr

The only issue with that lineup is whether the outside shooting would be consistent. I would need to bank on Bates (28.6%) and Thompson (24.4%) improving from three in the off-season. Additionally, Hood-Schifino would need to be consistent from day one...

That’s an awful lineup.

Bates will improve, but Thompson is already a 5th year Senior. JHS is shooting 27% from 3 in high school.

 

[turney333]

Depending on who stays and leaves after the season, I'd like to see a starting five next season of:

- Xavier Johnson
- Tamar Bates
- Jalen Hood-Schifino
- Race Thompson (assuming he stays based on his comments earlier this week)
- Michael Durr

The only issue with that lineup is whether the outside shooting would be consistent. I would need to bank on Bates (28.6%) and Thompson (24.4%) improving from three in the off-season. Additionally, Hood-Schifino would need to be consistent from day one...

While consistent outside shooting this year (and for next year) is the most glaring limitation of this team, ability to drive the basketball can overcome that to some degree and coupled with solid defense like we have seen would produce a decent team. Maybe the bigger issue with Kopp/Stewart isn't actually their lack of production behind the arc, but the fact that they mostly just stand around waiting to get passed the ball and aren't effective driving to the basket.

IU's offense has generally looked its best when Phin and Galloway have been playing instead of Kopp/Stewart because of their ability to take their man off the dribble and they don't stand around outside the arc because they know 3-point shooting isn't their strength. So even if they aren't scoring, they shake up opposing defenses more which creates better looks for X, Race, and TJD. Unfortunately, injuries got in the way of using that lineup more.

 

[Hatchets7times]

Also, while a decent team should probably be expected to overcome injuries setbacks better than IU did this year, it’s hard to fault Woodson since he didn’t have much control over building the roster and was scrambling to add what he did. A scenario like this year definitely falls at the feet of a coach with a more established tenure at a school

Didn't have control?
He begged a bunch to come back...