Knowing what you know now, what would you have done 2 years ago

[mushroomgod_1]

This is a very good post, and contains very fair and valid criticisms...and all without a single "He has failed us!!!! We are a laughingstock!!!"

Well, I knew Archie was stepping into a pile of s*** when I saw HH in Nov. '17. It was obvious from a 15 minute scrimmage that the roster was a disaster. What I didn't anticipate was how resistant Smith & Green would be to coaching. I know Archie can coach. However, I'm generally pessimistic right now, especially about next year, especially because it seems unlikely to me that Green & Smith are going to turn it around. It seems more likely that they are going to drag things down 1 more year. That's based on what I've seen from them the last 2 years. IF that happens, Archie loses credibility and recruiting will suffer. It feels like we're already feeling the effects of the last 2 years with Brooks and our transfer prospects/remaining '19 recruits.

I agree Archie has had really bad luck with Hunter's injury, Romeo's hand, and the other injuries. However, that's beside the point right now. Somehow, he's gotta turn this ship around, and it needs to happen next year. If Hunter's back, he's got a decent chance. If not, yikes, imo.

 

[hgdownunder]

I wouldn't have wasted so much time watching this basketball team. It is two years of bitter disappointment that I will never get back. I have been broken since the Nebraska game. After 40 years, Apathy has set in, unfortunately.

Did you live through the Crean era?

 

[Ksteph]

People who really know basketball wouldn't agree with him. People who really know basketball see the situation for what it is instead of responding like spoiled children who can't have what they think they are entitled to have right now.

People who know basketball (like RMK) know Archie can coach and are willing to be patient enough to let that play out. I'm sorry, but those on here screaming for Archie's head, or even those on here suggesting he's underachieved, don't know basketball.

Ha man you are so very wrong. I want Archie to succeed and I like Archie and love iubball. But, he’s underachieved and people are starting to seriously wonder if he’ll make it past year 3, let alone 4. One of my best friends is a coach of a very successful high school team in the state. His exact words to me right after we beat MSU for the second time was “iu is a joke and will be for at least the next few years”. This guy is the most knowledgeable b-ball guy I know and understood that that game changed nothing. Some people think everything is rainbows and butterflies and are overly optimistic. I prefer to be a realist and call it as I see it, which most people on here can’t handle

 

[ams66]

One of my best friends is a coach of a very successful high school team in the state. His exact words to me right after we beat MSU for the second time was “iu is a joke and will be for at least the next few years”. This guy is the most knowledgeable b-ball guy I know and understood that that game changed nothing.

I'll see your high school coach and raise you a HoF college coach:

“Patience is not something a lot of fans have,” Knight said. “But this kid (Miller) is going to do a good job. Why? Because he can coach. Most of the coaches I’ve known, can’t coach. You folks are going to appreciate him, but it ain’t gonna happen in a year.”

 

[trailrunner]

b/c he has a different opinion than you? a lot of people that know bball would agree with him and some wouldn't. this year will tell us a lot about archie..but you'll still be a fn dbag

People who really know basketball wouldn't agree with him. People who really know basketball see the situation for what it is instead of responding like spoiled children who can't have what they think they are entitled to have right now.

People who know basketball (like RMK) know Archie can coach and are willing to be patient enough to let that play out. I'm sorry, but those on here screaming for Archie's head, or even those on here suggesting he's underachieved, don't know basketball.

That is the exact rationale many Crean supporters used. Interesting

 

[oldcougar77]

That is the exact rationale many Crean supporters used. Interesting

People who know basketball also know Crean couldn't coach. He could recruit talented and athletic players, and when he had enough of them he had good teams. When his teams weren't as talented as the opponent, or weren't allowed to dictate pace of play, or struggled with shooting they had no chance to win.

 

[Al Bino]

That is the exact rationale many Crean supporters used. Interesting

Links please because I don't remember anyone suggesting that Crean was a good coach especially when it came to X's and O's.

And RMK never endorsed any coach at IU until Archie.

 

[Al Bino]

People who know basketball also know Crean couldn't coach. He could recruit talented and athletic players, and when he had enough of them he had good teams. When his teams weren't as talented as the opponent, or weren't allowed to dictate pace of play, or struggled with shooting they had no chance to win.

Beat me to it!!

 

[oldcougar77]

Ha man you are so very wrong. I want Archie to succeed and I like Archie and love iubball. But, he’s underachieved and people are starting to seriously wonder if he’ll make it past year 3, let alone 4. One of my best friends is a coach of a very successful high school team in the state. His exact words to me right after we beat MSU for the second time was “iu is a joke and will be for at least the next few years”. This guy is the most knowledgeable b-ball guy I know and understood that that game changed nothing. Some people think everything is rainbows and butterflies and are overly optimistic. I prefer to be a realist and call it as I see it, which most people on here can’t handle

You need to hang around better coaches.

 

[Al Bino]

His exact words to me right after we beat MSU for the second time was “iu is a joke and will be for at least the next few years”.

And what was his rational for making such a statement.

Specifics please.

 

[hgdownunder]

Ha man you are so very wrong. I want Archie to succeed and I like Archie and love iubball. But, he’s underachieved and people are starting to seriously wonder if he’ll make it past year 3, let alone 4. One of my best friends is a coach of a very successful high school team in the state. His exact words to me right after we beat MSU for the second time was “iu is a joke and will be for at least the next few years”. This guy is the most knowledgeable b-ball guy I know and understood that that game changed nothing. Some people think everything is rainbows and butterflies and are overly optimistic. I prefer to be a realist and call it as I see it, which most people on here can’t handle

Jeez, good thing we’ve only had 27 of your messages to “not handle.”

 

[82hoosier]

For what it’s worth, Bobby Knight qualified army for the NCAA tournament but he refused to except a bid.. And instead he played in the NIT.

 

[gulcherboy]

17-8 is pretty good for first year. Only 32 teams went to the tourney and I think you had to actually win your conference. Then he made it to final four the 2nd year. Also, freshmen couldnt play varsity so he was entirely relying on somebody elses players. If we brought in a coach and he made final four in year 2 heck we might put up a statue of them.

Branch McCracken won the national championship in his second year and we have not put up a statue of him. So, apparently, we don't do that ...

 

[Harry Hondo]

Do you know for a fact that RMK was chosen by a committee?

My admitted sketchy memory recalls that it was the AD that chose him.

And he was NOT the first choice ...
Imagine what we would have said, had the Internet existed at the time, after his first year of 17-8 and no tournament appearance -- much less not winning a title that year.

And Knight wanted the ND job, but they hired Digger and he “settled” for IU. Digger had decent teams, but needless to say, ND fu*ked that one up (although, I can’t imagine RMK settling for always being second to football, not to mention, ND dealing with Knight’s personality).

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It's really hard to overstate how ****ing stupid you are.

That is all.

He’d have to be a whole lot smarter to be stupid.

 

[fpeaugh]

Links please because I don't remember anyone suggesting that Crean was a good coach especially when it came to X's and O's.

And RMK never endorsed any coach at IU until Archie.

Then you weren’t around then. Crean was literally the 2nd coming on here for his first 5 years. That’s not even up for debate.

 

[fpeaugh]

Really - please enlighten us. Give specifics to how he has failed.

Have you not heard how the last 2 seasons went?

Are you ignoring our recruiting debacle?

What more do you need to see? I don’t think the last 2 years could’ve gone much worse?

 

[cryano]

He’d have to be a whole lot smarter to be stupid.

riveting info - thanks for adding to the discussion

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Then you weren’t around then. Crean was literally the 2nd coming on here for his first 5 years. That’s not even up for debate.

Yes it is

 

[RowdyHoosier]

Well, I knew Archie was stepping into a pile of s*** when I saw HH in Nov. '17. It was obvious from a 15 minute scrimmage that the roster was a disaster. What I didn't anticipate was how resistant Smith & Green would be to coaching. I know Archie can coach. However, I'm generally pessimistic right now, especially about next year, especially because it seems unlikely to me that Green & Smith are going to turn it around. It seems more likely that they are going to drag things down 1 more year. That's based on what I've seen from them the last 2 years. IF that happens, Archie loses credibility and recruiting will suffer. It feels like we're already feeling the effects of the last 2 years with Brooks and our transfer prospects/remaining '19 recruits.

I agree Archie has had really bad luck with Hunter's injury, Romeo's hand, and the other injuries. However, that's beside the point right now. Somehow, he's gotta turn this ship around, and it needs to happen next year. If Hunter's back, he's got a decent chance. If not, yikes, imo.

Great points about Smith and Green. Smith drives me nuts, when he is good he can be really, really good. The problem is that guy doesn't show up very often. I have hope for Green, I think he showed sings, late, of turning a corner. I think next year is a very critical year for CAM. IMO he impressed his first year and not so much this past year. Luck has not been on his side but he wasn't on top of his game this year, either. I have him at an "A" for first year and a "C" last year.

 

[cryano]

Great points about Smith and Green. Smith drives me nuts, when he is good he can be really, really good. The problem is that guy doesn't show up very often. I have hope for Green, I think he showed sings, late, of turning a corner. I think next year is a very critical year for CAM. IMO he impressed his first year and not so much this past year. Luck has not been on his side but he wasn't on top of his game this year, either. I have him at an "A" for first year and a "C" last year.

An A? Do you recall that he lost in the exact same manner to two state schools as we watched them make 3 after 3 w no adjustments, and then laid an egg vs Rutgers in the B10 tourney...w those 3 games preventing IU from making the tourney.

I agree w your ‘C’ for this current season.

Unfortunately a ‘C’ season, followed up w losing your 2 A players and 6 or 7 more, only being replaced w 1 A player, and a few other lowers...sets up for a D or F headed into next season.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Have you not heard how the last 2 seasons went?

Are you ignoring our recruiting debacle?

What more do you need to see? I don’t think the last 2 years could’ve gone much worse?

Again, spell things out specifically that are Archie’s fault.

 

[RowdyHoosier]

An A? Do you recall that he lost in the exact same manner to two state schools as we watched them make 3 after 3 w no adjustments, and then laid an egg vs Rutgers in the B10 tourney...w those 3 games preventing IU from making the tourney.

I agree w your ‘C’ for this current season.

Unfortunately a ‘C’ season, followed up w losing your 2 A players and 6 or 7 more, only being replaced w 1 A player, and a few other lowers...sets up for a D or F headed into next season.

Early on, I don't think the players were buying into his system, even Morgan. Once they committed, they were a different team. I surely was worried about CAM after those defeats, but then the Duke game happened and we saw the potential. The team got worn out late in the season as they were short handed and Rutgers got hot. Yes, I think Archie milked everything he possible could out of that team. I told my friends we were a player short before I saw Colin Hartman's condition, then DD went down. Morgan worked his ass off at the 5 and Freddie McSwain gave it everything he had, it just wasn't enough.

 

[fpeaugh]

Again, spell things out specifically that are Archie’s fault.

What are you talking about?

Archie is “specifically” 100% responsible for missing the tournament two straight years. This year with two all conference players including a lottery pick and 8 four or five star recruits.

Archie is “specifically” responsible for having the 40th ranked recruiting class this year.

What do you think he’s not responsible for?

 

[iubirdman]

What are you talking about?

Archie is “specifically” 100% responsible for missing the tournament two straight years. This year with two all conference players including a lottery pick and 8 four or five star recruits.

Archie is “specifically” responsible for having the 40th ranked recruiting class this year.

What do you think he’s not responsible for?

So we have a top 20 player Nationally and arguably 2 of the top 3 in state kids with, at the time, only 2 scholarships available and that is bad? You realize so much for class rankings are based on QUANTITY and quality. You realize the class is maybe only 40% full and has a chance to make a decent jump.

Would you have been happy with a 5 man class signed in November with only 2 spots open, or would you have been on here complaining about all the oversigns?

 

[snarlcakes]

What are you talking about?

Archie is “specifically” 100% responsible for missing the tournament two straight years. This year with two all conference players including a lottery pick and 8 four or five star recruits.

Archie is “specifically” responsible for having the 40th ranked recruiting class this year.

What do you think he’s not responsible for?

You’re on a board where half of the posters would still hire Archie over Holtmann and Mack. Even though Archie is the only coach of the 3 that hasn’t had any success outside of a mid-major and barely won half of his games the last two years.

Also, of the three schools Indiana has the least amount of talent coming back, next year, and the lowest rank recruiting class of the 3. Logic and reasoning isn’t a strong suit on here. Also, IU has the 33 ranked class on rivals.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

No.

But a guy is not allowed to build his program? None of the injuries of this year or losing your 3 best players from the year before he was hired doesn't matter?

What specifically should have Archie done differently this part season? Give examples of how in his coaching he failed.

You’re responding to a mental midget. “Duh, you don’t think Archie has failed, duh, so you must think he’s been a 100% success, duh”. There’s no in between for mental midgets. It’s either one thing, or it’s the other. You’re wasting your time.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

17-8 is pretty good for first year. Only 32 teams went to the tourney and I think you had to actually win your conference. Then he made it to final four the 2nd year. Also, freshmen couldnt play varsity so he was entirely relying on somebody elses players. If we brought in a coach and he made final four in year 2 heck we might put up a statue of them.

Mike Davis called, he’s wondering where his statue is.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

What are you talking about?

Archie is “specifically” 100% responsible for missing the tournament two straight years. This year with two all conference players including a lottery pick and 8 four or five star recruits.

Archie is “specifically” responsible for having the 40th ranked recruiting class this year.

What do you think he’s not responsible for?

WHY is he responsible?

You seem to think winning - or losing - just happens. What EXACTLY was it he did to cause what you claim?

Btw - I’d stay away from that “100%” phrase if I were you. It’s not worked well for you in the past.

 

[fpeaugh]

So we have a top 20 player Nationally and arguably 2 of the top 3 in state kids with, at the time, only 2 scholarships available and that is bad? You realize so much for class rankings are based on QUANTITY and quality. You realize the class is maybe only 40% full and has a chance to make a decent jump.

Would you have been happy with a 5 man class signed in November with only 2 spots open, or would you have been on here complaining about all the oversigns?

I’ve never complained about oversigning. And I guess we’ll see how it finishes out. But right now it’s very underwhelming considering what we lose and how we did last year.

 

[fpeaugh]

You’re on a board where half of the posters would still hire Archie over Holtmann and Mack. Even though Archie is the only coach of the 3 that hasn’t had any success outside of a mid-major and barely won half of his games the last two years.

Also, of the three schools Indiana has the least amount of talent coming back, next year, and the lowest rank recruiting class of the 3. Logic and reasoning isn’t a strong suit on here. Also, IU has the 33 ranked class on rivals.

It’s pure sunshine and rainbow land around here. Hard to believe.

 

[fpeaugh]

WHY is he responsible?

You seem to think winning - or losing - just happens. What EXACTLY was it he did to cause what you claim?

Btw - I’d stay away from that “100%” phrase if I were you. It’s not worked well for you in the past.

He’s the Head Coach, the CEO, the Owner, the everything of the program. Everything, good and bad, is on his shoulders.

He’s in charge of getting his players, he’s in charge of developing them, motivating them, coaching them. This isn’t the pros where you have a GM and a coach. Archie is everything for IU. And he’s failed so far. You can’t get away from that.

 

[ufo33]

Mack was the most successful. I really liked the way Holtmann's Butler teams played grind it out defense and ran a patient fundamental half court offense. Archie took Dayton (Dayton!!) to the Elite 8 in only a few years. Archie teams played very hard, and Archie's Packline Defense works with the right personnel, knowledge, and effort. Archie was the youngest of the 3 coaches with the most upside, and likely the highest ceiling.
If IU could not get Brad Stevens, Billy Donovan, Tony Bennett, Greg Marshall, it would have been between Archie and Holtmann to recruit Indiana HS players, play solid defense to keep you in every game, and make in game adjustment to win close games. Given time, i still think Archie has the most upside and highest ceiling, and being good is not the goal at IU, being great is the goal by winning National Championships. So IU rolled the dice on the youngest coach with the perceived highest upside. It is that upside thst warrents more patience from the IU fanbase whose patience is running out after after 2 decades after RMK. Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson's sanctions, and 9 years of roller coaster, mediocre, turnover prone Crean.

 

[Al Bino]

Then you weren’t around then. Crean was literally the 2nd coming on here for his first 5 years. That’s not even up for debate.

Not up for debate in your mind but it is in the real world.

 

[Al Bino]

And Knight wanted the ND job, but they hired Digger and he “settled” for IU. Digger had decent teams, but needless to say, ND fu*ked that one up (although, I can’t imagine RMK settling for always being second to football, not to mention, ND dealing with Knight’s personality).

I have never heard that RMK wanted the ND job.

I do know that he accepted the Wisconsin job until they let the cat out of the bag when he had told them to keep it quiet. That ended that negotiation.

 

[ufo33]

He’s the Head Coach, the CEO, the Owner, the everything of the program. Everything, good and bad, is on his shoulders.

He’s in charge of getting his players, he’s in charge of developing them, motivating them, coaching them. This isn’t the pros where you have a GM and a coach. Archie is everything for IU. And he’s failed so far. You can’t get away from that.

Tom Crean's left behind upperclass recruits did not perform as high as expected, or lead. Archie has had 1 class that he originally recruited.

 

[MrBing]

Hiring Archie 2 years ago is not the problem...
Keeping Archie is the problem...

Archie has failed the IU basketball program.


Ive said prior that at the time, Mack, Holtman, Marshall and Archie were the hot names for the next big coaches...and even talked w UK and UL fans during our search and said if Cal or Pitino left, what hire would you be confident in or excited about, outside of Donovan or Stevens, and they all mentioned those same names.
Archie wasnt a bad hire, and it wasnt a mistake to hire him, even with hindsight.

However, Archie has grossly underperformed in almost every category I can think of. For optics, I understand the need to give him year 3. People lose their jobs everyday...I dont wish Archie to fail, because I love IU basketball, but Archie has been a failure to date.

= the expression on the faces of 90 percent of the posters on the forum!

 

[Stuffshot]

Well, I knew Archie was stepping into a pile of s*** when I saw HH in Nov. '17. It was obvious from a 15 minute scrimmage that the roster was a disaster. What I didn't anticipate was how resistant Smith & Green would be to coaching. I know Archie can coach. However, I'm generally pessimistic right now, especially about next year, especially because it seems unlikely to me that Green & Smith are going to turn it around. It seems more likely that they are going to drag things down 1 more year. That's based on what I've seen from them the last 2 years. IF that happens, Archie loses credibility and recruiting will suffer. It feels like we're already feeling the effects of the last 2 years with Brooks and our transfer prospects/remaining '19 recruits.

I agree Archie has had really bad luck with Hunter's injury, Romeo's hand, and the other injuries. However, that's beside the point right now. Somehow, he's gotta turn this ship around, and it needs to happen next year. If Hunter's back, he's got a decent chance. If not, yikes, imo.

I think there were signs that Green adjusted to something late in the season, because Green ended the season by being the only player on our roster that I wanted to see shooting a 3-pointer. His interviews sounded like he didn't resent that he had been suspended and that he was happy coming back and contributing next year.

Nonetheless, I hope Miller tells Green, Phinisee and Durham, "I want you three to shoot no fewer than 2,000 jump shots per day from no closer than 12 feet from all over the floor, before the NCAA rules later in the year permit me to have the rest of the team come out on the floor and defend you aggressively while you're trying to shoot." Next year, I'd like to see at least two of those three become virtually-automatic three-point and midrange shooters.

Why do I suggest this? Because we are losing two bigs to transfer and right now I don't see anyone other than Davis being an effective frontline player next year. We need both size and shooting. We can improve shooting by practice.

 

[cryano]

= the expression on the faces of 90 percent of the posters on the forum!

that is some funny math… As 57% of people only voted to hire Archie…and I was one of them...

 

[MrBing]

that is some funny math… As 57% of people only voted to hire Archie…and I was one of them...

It wasn't about the nonscientific poll it was about your posts.