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Israel under attack from Hamas

Partisanship would be the reflexive recoil from the likes of you and Zeke the moment anyone deigns to criticize Saint Barack.

What would it take to convince Democrats that the Obama/ Biden foreign policy establishment have f*cked the ME six ways from Sunday? Clearly the compare/ contrast between the Trump admin isn't enough for them.
You could start by offering a genuine criticism, instead of this nonsense CO.H is offering. Hint: if you are implying that your guy was doing it all right, and then the other guy came in and changed it all to be wrong, you're probably full of shit. Foreign policy doesn't work like that.
 
You could start by offering a genuine criticism, instead of this nonsense CO.H is offering. Hint: if you are implying that your guy was doing it all right, and then the other guy came in and changed it all to be wrong, you're probably full of shit. Foreign policy doesn't work like that.
How does it work? Our foreign policy unfortunately operates on 4-8 year horizons. Pretending like we maintain consistent foreign policy across multiple administrations is ridiculous. This is particularly true in regards to Iran.

COH and my criticism is genuine. You just don't like it.
 
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How does it work? Our foreign policy unfortunately operates on 4-8 year horizons. Pretending like we maintain consistent foreign policy across multiple administrations is ridiculous. This is particularly true in regards to Iran.

COH and my criticism is genuine. You just don't like it.
90% of it is consistent and nonpartisan. CO.H is taking minor differences in approach and pretending they represent vast ideological gulfs. A lot of you guys have been doing this since the day Obama took office. There's no longer and nuance, any depth. It's just Dems bad, Repubs good.
 
90% of it is consistent and nonpartisan. CO.H is taking minor differences in approach and pretending they represent vast ideological gulfs. A lot of you guys have been doing this since the day Obama took office. There's no longer and nuance, any depth. It's just Dems bad, Repubs good.
Okay but that's not the case with Iran. And you can point to concrete examples that I know your familiar with from the refusal to apply and enforce oil sanctions, killing Soleimani, unfreezing assets, cutting nuclear deals, that show just how far off the Obama/ Biden vision for Iran was from Trump. These are not "minor differences" like you pretend.

The full arc of history hasn't played out yet, but it would be hard to say at this point that Trump admins vision of isolating and degrading Iran's economy wasn't the correct course of action.
 
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So as long as you agree with what's on Google, that's acceptable material.

Don't trust everything else though.

Got it.
I never use Google. But if it's on Google it must be pretty well known. I can't count the times Google says information changing at a rapid pace and then i roll in using another search and viola a boat load of info.
 
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I never use Google. But if it's on Google it must be pretty well known. I can't count the times Google says information changing at a rapid pace and then i roll in using another search and viola a boat load of info.
What search engine are you using?
 

No amount of letter writing is going to save the “journalists” who accompanied terrorists….nor should it
And letter writing didn’t save Ernie Pyle in the Pacific Theater either.

The journalists may not have known of plans to commit war crimes.

If they did, and did nothing about it, ….

They did document the war crimes.
Claims IDF is conducting genocide, after what happened, are beyond disappointing.

Regardless, journalists in war zones know they can get shot, should they stand shoulder to shoulder with combatants. Their editor’s know this too.
 
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Meanwhile… there have been reports yesterday and today that Hamas is no longer in control in Gaza.

On my island … it’s perhaps the end of the beginning …

IDF seems to be exceeding many perceptions with their efficiency

Were Hezbolla really planning to attack … it seem to be too late now.
 
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What level of partisanship does it take to believe Trump encouraged the J6 riot when he told his followers to go peacefully
His attorneys probably made him add that. He wanted to hang Mike Pence, he wanted to take the weapon detectors down, ( because they weren’t there for him) and he’d been warned repeatedly about violence for days.
 
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Actual policies changed a lot. Obama coddled Iran like no president ever did before. Trump did an abrupt about face, and it was working. Along comes Biden and not only puts us back on Obama’s mistaken course, but uses Putin and Russia as our agent for reopening the JCPOA. He then relaxes enforcement of sanctions, without ever lifting them, allowing Iran to collect billions in oil revenue. A significant portion of that money want to Iranian Jew hating surrogates in Yemen, Gaza, and Lebanon. Then Biden inexplicably allows Qatar to “oversee” distribution of sanctioned funds for the benefit iof Iran. Qatar being the home of Hamas leadership and the funding source for terror groups.

Cause and effect is never certain, but it is much more likely than not that Obama with his bad people on both sides nonsense, and Biden with his Obama inspired boneheaded Iranian policy directly led to the October 7 slaughter and ongoing war. Like Neville Chamberlain, Biden and his handlers don’t see what is plain to see.

that's a pretty simplistic read on it. The JCPOA was a good deal. Iran will have a bomb sooner without it but they were on that path whether we sanctioned them or not, whether Israel were to bomb them or not. It was a delay tactic. Ironically, the STUXNET worm, originated during a Democratic presidency, set their nuke development back further than sanctions. sure, embargoes hurt but it's not like they stopped Iran from wreaking havoc in the region. their ruling regime will always find resources to stay relevant; it's what they do.

one could just as easily blame Trump's disengagement as a cause for 10/7, as long as we're just seeing what sticks. I get it, this board is about trashing the other team. yay! but US foreign policy is much bigger than a single president. it take decades to develop. it's wildly complicated, insanely layered. again, the US stance and goals in the ME haven't changed much in 30 years.
 
that's a pretty simplistic read on it. The JCPOA was a good deal. Iran will have a bomb sooner without it but they were on that path whether we sanctioned them or not, whether Israel were to bomb them or not. It was a delay tactic. Ironically, the STUXNET worm, originated during a Democratic presidency, set their nuke development back further than sanctions. sure, embargoes hurt but it's not like they stopped Iran from wreaking havoc in the region. their ruling regime will always find resources to stay relevant; it's what they do.

one could just as easily blame Trump's disengagement as a cause for 10/7, as long as we're just seeing what sticks. I get it, this board is about trashing the other team. yay! but US foreign policy is much bigger than a single president. it take decades to develop. it's wildly complicated, insanely layered. again, the US stance and goals in the ME haven't changed much in 30 years.
I endorse this. You said it better than I did.
 
that's a pretty simplistic read on it. The JCPOA was a good deal. Iran will have a bomb sooner without it but they were on that path whether we sanctioned them or not, whether Israel were to bomb them or not. It was a delay tactic. Ironically, the STUXNET worm, originated during a Democratic presidency, set their nuke development back further than sanctions. sure, embargoes hurt but it's not like they stopped Iran from wreaking havoc in the region. their ruling regime will always find resources to stay relevant; it's what they do.

one could just as easily blame Trump's disengagement as a cause for 10/7, as long as we're just seeing what sticks. I get it, this board is about trashing the other team. yay! but US foreign policy is much bigger than a single president. it take decades to develop. it's wildly complicated, insanely layered. again, the US stance and goals in the ME haven't changed much in 30 years.
Whole lot of wrong in this post. Let's eat the elephant one bite at a time.

The JCPOA was a farce. In the most charitable view it kicked the can down the road. In the real view it placated an enemy that continued to kill U.S. service people through their proxies.

Stuxnet was a Mossad operation that you're attributing to an American Democratic presidency for some reason that is inconceivable. By all accounts. The Obama administration was not on board with that.

Trump was engaged. He just didn't engage the Mullah's fantasies like 44.
 
I cannot fathom the level of partisanship one had to achieve to believe nonsense like this.
I know that.

Partisanship isn’t really required. Just objectivity. Biden can barely bring himself to say “Iran” in the last couple of weeks. But go on believing Israel are even partly the bad guys and Iran are mostly good faith actors. Nothing will change.
 
that's a pretty simplistic read on it. The JCPOA was a good deal. Iran will have a bomb sooner without it but they were on that path whether we sanctioned them or not, whether Israel were to bomb them or not. It was a delay tactic. Ironically, the STUXNET worm, originated during a Democratic presidency, set their nuke development back further than sanctions. sure, embargoes hurt but it's not like they stopped Iran from wreaking havoc in the region. their ruling regime will always find resources to stay relevant; it's what they do.

one could just as easily blame Trump's disengagement as a cause for 10/7, as long as we're just seeing what sticks. I get it, this board is about trashing the other team. yay! but US foreign policy is much bigger than a single president. it take decades to develop. it's wildly complicated, insanely layered. again, the US stance and goals in the ME haven't changed much in 30 years.
I don't think it’s simplistic at all. Iran pays for weapons all over the Middle East for the sole purpose of Provoking, damaging, and eventually destroying Israel. Iran is financing barbarism and there is no equivalency with Israel or the “bad people on both sides” nonsense. The most important FP objective is to stop Iran‘s receipt of funds. Trump got this and used his maximum pressure policy to limit Irans income. In addition to that, he dropped a Hellfire on the head of the individual in charge of disbursing those terror funds throughout the Middle East. Iran can’t issue bonds like us, it must convert it’s oil to cash to finance terror. . Obama and Biden don’t get that and have directly, and indirectly, provided billions of cash and oil revenue to Iran. That is a gigantic mistake.

Yeah, a cogent Iran policy has many dimensions in time and place. But it is undeniable that Iran is the head of the terrorist snake and it is further undeniable that Obama and Biden have been more lenient towards Iran than any president in the last several decades.
 
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Don’t get preachy with me, jack. Write a serious post and respond in like kind like I’ve done with manichi.
This is what he does now days. He floats around the periphery of an issue all while being snide as ****. Then he accuses you of misrepresenting his viewpoint or not understanding the issue when you try and engage him.

A complete zero and value detractor from the board.
 
Whole lot of wrong in this post. Let's eat the elephant one bite at a time.

The JCPOA was a farce. In the most charitable view it kicked the can down the road. In the real view it placated an enemy that continued to kill U.S. service people through their proxies.

Stuxnet was a Mossad operation that you're attributing to an American Democratic presidency for some reason that is inconceivable. By all accounts. The Obama administration was not on board with that.

Trump was engaged. He just didn't engage the Mullah's fantasies like 44.

"The JCPOA was a farce. In the most charitable view it kicked the can down the road. In the real view it placated an enemy that continued to kill U.S. service people through their proxies."

The whole point was to kick the can down the road. welcome to geopolitics. don't think of it as backyard brawlers looking to one-shot each other, but chess players buying time while another plan comes together. most of the time it's a draw

while I appreciate the idealism, I'm not sure you guys are getting that Iran can't just be stricken from the map, or coaxed into Western thinking. no matter our stance, their strategic imperatives will clash with those of our regional partners, and ultimately our regional preferences. keep in mind only recently have Republicans taken the aggressive approach and Democrats the diplomatic one. Reagan illegally sold them arms (which may or may not have been used to kill US servicemen) and wisely kept channels open as a Democratic congress beat the war drum. then Clinton enacted a complete trade embargo. Neither approach has been working. The rifts are much deeper than can be explained by American domestic political preferences. the US continues to believe the Iranian people are more moderate, sophisticated than their leaders. both sides of our aisle will continue to foment internal discord and revolutionary machinations with economic pressure, while beefing up our regional partners. that's the playbook.

"Stuxnet was a Mossad operation that you're attributing to an American Democratic presidency for some reason that is inconceivable. By all accounts. The Obama administration was not on board with that."

No one has ever proven who did it (basically meaning it was the US), though it was certainly a nation-state. There is a 0% chance Israel does that without clear US approval, if they did it at all. no way. end of story. it's certainly not a knock on Israel that they rely so heavily on the US as a patron but they do. their strategic imperatives are currently unachievable without a deeper relationship with a superpower, even as powerful and dynamic as they are.
 
"The JCPOA was a farce. In the most charitable view it kicked the can down the road. In the real view it placated an enemy that continued to kill U.S. service people through their proxies."

The whole point was to kick the can down the road. welcome to geopolitics. don't think of it as backyard brawlers looking to one-shot each other, but chess players buying time while another plan comes together. most of the time it's a draw

while I appreciate the idealism, I'm not sure you guys are getting that Iran can't just be stricken from the map, or coaxed into Western thinking. no matter our stance, their strategic imperatives will clash with those of our regional partners, and ultimately our regional preferences. keep in mind only recently have Republicans taken the aggressive approach and Democrats the diplomatic one. Reagan illegally sold them arms (which may or may not have been used to kill US servicemen) and wisely kept channels open as a Democratic congress beat the war drum. then Clinton enacted a complete trade embargo. Neither approach has been working. The rifts are much deeper than can be explained by American domestic political preferences. the US continues to believe the Iranian people are more moderate, sophisticated than their leaders. both sides of our aisle will continue to foment internal discord and revolutionary machinations with economic pressure, while beefing up our regional partners. that's the playbook.

"Stuxnet was a Mossad operation that you're attributing to an American Democratic presidency for some reason that is inconceivable. By all accounts. The Obama administration was not on board with that."

No one has ever proven who did it (basically meaning it was the US), though it was certainly a nation-state. There is a 0% chance Israel does that without clear US approval, if they did it at all. no way. end of story. it's certainly not a knock on Israel that they rely so heavily on the US as a patron but they do. their strategic imperatives are currently unachievable without a deeper relationship with a superpower, even as powerful and dynamic as they are.
True or false: Stuxnet would likely have happened no matter who won the presidential election in 2008.
 
This is what he does now days. He floats around the periphery of an issue all while being snide as ****. Then he accuses you of misrepresenting his viewpoint or not understanding the issue when you try and engage him.

A complete zero and value detractor from the board.
He is misrepresenting my viewpoint, and he's doing it in a reprehensible way.
 
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He is misrepresenting my viewpoint, and he's doing it in a reprehensible way.
shocked the princess bride GIF

Dws
 
I don't think it’s simplistic at all. Iran pays for weapons all over the Middle East for the sole purpose of Provoking, damaging, and eventually destroying Israel. Iran is financing barbarism and there is no equivalency with Israel or the “bad people on both sides” nonsense. The most important FP objective is to stop Iran‘s receipt of funds. Trump got this and used his maximum pressure policy to limit Irans income. In addition to that, he dropped a Hellfire on the head of the individual in charge of disbursing those terror funds throughout the Middle East. Iran can’t issue bonds like us, it must convert it’s oil to cash to finance terror. . Obama and Biden don’t get that and have directly, and indirectly, provided billions of cash and oil revenue to Iran. That is a gigantic mistake.

Yeah, a cogent Iran policy has many dimensions in time and place. But it is undeniable that Iran is the head of the terrorist snake and it is further undeniable that Obama and Biden have been more lenient towards Iran than any president in the last several decades.

not wanting US dollars to fund terrorism would be noble it if weren't hypocritical. man. Clinton and Trump agreed, embargo the hell out of them. didn't work. same way it's not working with russia. these aren't "it's the economy, dummy" societies/ governments. takes nuance. diplomacy and cruise missiles a la Kissinger.
 
Don't accuse me of being some sort of Iran defender.
I didn’t say you were an Iranian defender. I said ( implied) you agree with Biden treating Iran like a normal negotiating partner as you wrote my strong criticism of Biden’s Iranian policies was unbelievably partisan.
 
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Many observers say Trumps maximum pressure was working.

Council on Foreighn Relations:

Isn't true that there are many examples of terrorist organizations and insurgencies that operate military on an extremely limited budget? North Korea has become a barren wasteland from sanctions, it has the bomb, it is building ICBMs, it is supplying Russia with artillery.
 
Many observers say Trumps maximum pressure was working.

Council on Foreighn Relations:

to what end did it work? 10/7? are you suggesting Iran needed any recently released money to assist Hamas? how does that explain their activity during Clinton? we clearly agree to disagree, the futility of Northern Ireland keeps coming back to me as a reference. also thinking of Paul Newman's line in Road to Perdition here: "There are only murderers in this room"
 
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100% true

this is a pretty surreal read on how it all went down, how Bush handed off the nascent cyber attack programs to Obama. jeebus, presidents used to share this information directly. hopefully we can get back to that.

Yep. JFK regularly consulted with Ike. Don’t know when the wheels fell off, but now presidential candidates hate each other. I think a large part of the problem is the presidents are largely driven by consultants and polling data.
 
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Yep. JFK regularly consulted with Ike. Don’t know when the wheels fell off, but now presidential candidates hate each other. I think a large part of the problem is the presidents are largely driven by consultants and polling data.
Media social media. Making everything worse
 
Are you suggesting Iran needed any recently released money to assist Hamas?
No. I’m suggesting the huge revenues from oil sales to China which Biden tacitly approved was the problem. As the article noted, Iran was on the ropes, Biden backed off. As I said before, cause and effect can never be certain, but I think it’s very fair to say Biden’s blunders substantially increased the probability of October 7.
 
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If someone smears feces all over the wall and tries to tell me it's art, I can respond with "No, it isn't" and shouldn't have to explain why.
Just stop. Nobody forced you to respond at all. You chose to do that. You didn’t touch the merits while claiming there are no merits. I bet you think you’ve added value here. You are just wasting everybody’s time.
 
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