Israel under attack from Hamas

[Marvin the Martian]

We "tried" not to do much damage but we utterly destroyed both Germany and Japan. Allied strategic bombing is thought to have killed 350-500,000 Germans and 330-900,000 Japanese plus an additional 112,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I don't think the Israelis are going total destruction either. I am saying that if you put the missiles that are shooting at my country on the roof of a hospital, I am blowing up the missiles. The fact the hospital gets destroyed along with it isn't my fault. If you set up your terrorist offices in a mosque, I am bombing the mosque. Also not my fault. If I have intelligence that a high value leader of your group is in an apartment building, I am taking him out.

You know when they will stop using things like hospitals, schools, and mosques as shields for their terrorists? About the time they realize we don't view that as a shield anymore.

I get it, and I agree. At the same point, I recall Jesse Ventura saying that if America were occupied you could sure bet he would hide weapons in churches if that is what it took. Sadly that is the nature of the rules of war, the stronger force wants rules, and the weaker doesn't want them and won't abide. But at some point, the lack of food and medicine in Gaza is going to surpass the attack on Israel and Israel is going to lose their support.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I get it, and I agree. At the same point, I recall Jesse Ventura saying that if America were occupied you could sure bet he would hide weapons in churches if that is what it took. Sadly that is the nature of the rules of war, the stronger force wants rules, and the weaker doesn't want them and won't abide. But at some point, the lack of food and medicine in Gaza is going to surpass the attack on Israel and Israel is going to lose their support.

They have no choice though. Rockets are still flying into Israel. Instead of listening to others opinions, they need to make their own decisions that are in their people’s best interest.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

They have no choice though. Rockets are still flying into Israel. Instead of listening to others opinions, they need to make their own decisions that are in their people’s best interest.

Israel has to do what is in her interests. I've not opposed that. I just don't think time is completely on her side. The longer the bombardment phase goes on, the harder it will be for countries to stay with her. A country blind with rage might not see what is in their long-term interests, you know, they might decide to invade Iraq as an example.

I wonder if Israel's huge call-up, the movement to the border, the signals the invasion is imminent, are all a ruse? I don't think so, but I can't rule it out. Hamas clearly would have a plan to fight an Israeli incursion. Their forces would be stationed according to that plan. As long as Israel threatens, Hamas is more or less locked into place. Much like the fear of sabotage at Pearl locked our fighters into being clustered to be easily defended from a ground attack. If Israel has some knowledge of Hamas's plans, they can hit them based on those plans without coming in.

 

[stollcpa]

Israel has to do what is in her interests. I've not opposed that. I just don't think time is completely on her side. The longer the bombardment phase goes on, the harder it will be for countries to stay with her. A country blind with rage might not see what is in their long-term interests, you know, they might decide to invade Iraq as an example.

I wonder if Israel's huge call-up, the movement to the border, the signals the invasion is imminent, are all a ruse? I don't think so, but I can't rule it out. Hamas clearly would have a plan to fight an Israeli incursion. Their forces would be stationed according to that plan. As long as Israel threatens, Hamas is more or less locked into place. Much like the fear of sabotage at Pearl locked our fighters into being clustered to be easily defended from a ground attack. If Israel has some knowledge of Hamas's plans, they can hit them based on those plans without coming in.

It doesn’t matter what Israel does. Everyone including the US will be pressuring them to stop.

 

[BradStevens]

I’m certainly not downplaying the events, please correct me if you’ve seen me do that, but we’ve seen this play out so many times. Israel can’t punch back twice as hard and expect a different result. Not if it wants a seat at the table. The West will draw a line.

You keep writing as if "proportionality" means "punch back" at the same level. What do you think that means? Israel should butcher exactly 1,400 Palestinians? Exactly 100 babies? Rape the exact same number of women? Burn alive the same number of people?

Israel's "proportional" response needs to be proportional in relation to their military objective: ensuring this type of attack can never emanate from Gaza again and eradicating Hamas (as we did with Al Qaeda and tried to with the Taliban). Hamas is going to do everything in its power to make sure that as Israel attempts to achieve its objective, as many civilian Palestinians die as possible (something not even Al Qaeda or the Taliban would do). That was one of Hamas's goals in this attack in the first place--instigate a powerful Israeli response that Hamas hopes will galvanize the Arab and Muslim world against Israel.

 

[DANC]

View embedded media

Watch the video. What would be a "proportionate" response to that? If you lived in El Paso, TX and a bunch of narco terrorists who lived in a city that elected them to rule came across the border and did that to you and your family, what would be a "proportionate" response to that?

The idea that proportionate responses are required is utter naive bull shit thinking. You don't owe an enemy proportionality. War isn't about going tit for tat. It is about smashing your enemy into a bunch of tiny pieces until they are either dead or beg for mercy. "Proportionality" is what allows conflicts like this to drag on for decades.

If I knew you did this to mine and you had the will and capability to do it again, I would be willing to kill every last person you hold dear in order to eliminate you. That is the proportional response. And you know who would be to blame? You. Just like the people in those videos. They are to blame. They want a "proportionate" response, they should surrender. However the "from the river to the sea" mindset is pretty ubiquitous in Gaza. I feel for the kids, but the adults are the equivalent of 1944 Germans to me. Pummel them into submission.

****ing savages

 

[DANC]

I get it, and I agree. At the same point, I recall Jesse Ventura saying that if America were occupied you could sure bet he would hide weapons in churches if that is what it took. Sadly that is the nature of the rules of war, the stronger force wants rules, and the weaker doesn't want them and won't abide. But at some point, the lack of food and medicine in Gaza is going to surpass the attack on Israel and Israel is going to lose their support.

Let's not set our standards by what Jesse Ventura would do.

Did the South or North hide munitions or themselves in churches and hospitals?

Did the Continentals do that during the Revolutionary war?

There are no 'rules of war'. I laugh when I hear that term. There is civility vs cowardice.

 

[DANC]

Israel has to do what is in her interests. I've not opposed that. I just don't think time is completely on her side. The longer the bombardment phase goes on, the harder it will be for countries to stay with her. A country blind with rage might not see what is in their long-term interests, you know, they might decide to invade Iraq as an example.

I wonder if Israel's huge call-up, the movement to the border, the signals the invasion is imminent, are all a ruse? I don't think so, but I can't rule it out. Hamas clearly would have a plan to fight an Israeli incursion. Their forces would be stationed according to that plan. As long as Israel threatens, Hamas is more or less locked into place. Much like the fear of sabotage at Pearl locked our fighters into being clustered to be easily defended from a ground attack. If Israel has some knowledge of Hamas's plans, they can hit them based on those plans without coming in.

It could be a siege and they are trying to starve them out.

I'm sure they're gathering as much intelligence as they can right now in preparation for when they do go it - selecting specific spots and personnel.

 

[DANC]

“Old Testament”? I don’t think you’re having a serious discussion

Read the Old Testament sometime and educate yourself.

 

[GigGoo]

so I guess would you would support an Osage Nation uprising?

I get the sentiment of the cartoon. I really do but Israel does have to respond proportionally if it wants a full seat at the international table. Those are the rules.

Whose rules? And they’ll only lose western support because of people like you.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Smart people they are

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Let's not set our standards by what Jesse Ventura would do.

Did the South or North hide munitions or themselves in churches and hospitals?

Did the Continentals do that during the Revolutionary war?

There are no 'rules of war'. I laugh when I hear that term. There is civility vs cowardice.

In the Revolution, we did target British officers, which violated European civility. And there is this:

Some of these historical ruins remain standing today, like Sheldon Church in Beaufort County. The church was being used by Colonials to hide confiscated British ammunition and thousands of pounds of gunpowder. When a loyalist named Andrew Devoe informed the British General Augustine Prevost about this in 1779, they torched the church and destroyed the cache.​

Church burnings made Colonists fight Brits even harder

At the Nov. 21 meeting of the Darlington Kiwanis Club, guest speaker Bill Segars, a contractor, author and historian, gave a fascinating talk on the role of church burnings during the American Revo…

www.newsandpress.net

Lee made the decision not to go to ground at the end, had he elected to fight a guerilla war I suspect all bets would have been off.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

In the Revolution, we did target British officers, which violated European civility. And there is this:

Some of these historical ruins remain standing today, like Sheldon Church in Beaufort County. The church was being used by Colonials to hide confiscated British ammunition and thousands of pounds of gunpowder. When a loyalist named Andrew Devoe informed the British General Augustine Prevost about this in 1779, they torched the church and destroyed the cache.​

Church burnings made Colonists fight Brits even harder

At the Nov. 21 meeting of the Darlington Kiwanis Club, guest speaker Bill Segars, a contractor, author and historian, gave a fascinating talk on the role of church burnings during the American Revo…

www.newsandpress.net

Lee made the decision not to go to ground at the end, had he elected to fight a guerilla war I suspect all bets would have been off.

The whole Tarleton vs. Marion affair is a great lesson in the morality of war, or lack thereof, regardless of sides.

 

[DANC]

In the Revolution, we did target British officers, which violated European civility. And there is this:

Some of these historical ruins remain standing today, like Sheldon Church in Beaufort County. The church was being used by Colonials to hide confiscated British ammunition and thousands of pounds of gunpowder. When a loyalist named Andrew Devoe informed the British General Augustine Prevost about this in 1779, they torched the church and destroyed the cache.​

Church burnings made Colonists fight Brits even harder

At the Nov. 21 meeting of the Darlington Kiwanis Club, guest speaker Bill Segars, a contractor, author and historian, gave a fascinating talk on the role of church burnings during the American Revo…

www.newsandpress.net

Lee made the decision not to go to ground at the end, had he elected to fight a guerilla war I suspect all bets would have been off.

Targeting officers is not anything like targeting visitors. I didn't see anything about people being burned in the church.

What may happen in a few isolated instances is not like a policy, which is what Hamas follows.

And what Lee "could' have done is not what he did.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Lee made the decision not to go to ground at the end, had he elected to fight a guerilla war I suspect all bets would have been off.

Bushwhackers and Quantrill's group basically gave way to outlaw gangs like the James-Younger and Mason Henry gangs. That's fascinating stuff and I think provides a chilling peek into what could have been if Lee or any of the senior confederate leadership had decided to keep going after the surrender.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Targeting officers is not anything like targeting visitors. I didn't see anything about people being burned in the church.

What may happen in a few isolated instances is not like a policy, which is what Hamas follows.

And what Lee "could' have done is not what he did.

If America were occupied, would you violate the rules of war to win? I'm thinking full-on "Wolverines" here.

I am not defending Hamas, I support Israel's efforts though I worry that others will turn. Heck, people on turning on Ukraine and Ukraine is the one being occupied. But the history of guerilla warfare is one where the guerillas violate the rules with impunity. I can find it wrong and realize if my family's freedom were at stake I might do the same thing. But it would make churches and schools targets. I've not criticized Israel for hitting these targets.

I suspect much of what we did in the Western campaigns would run afoul of our idea of civility in warfare.

I firmly believe though day after day reporting of hospitals out of medicine, Gaza out of food, will wear on Israeli support. Now it won't stop Israel. But it also might result in more money going into Hamas.

 

[GigGoo]

It’s because they don’t care and we’re broke. The goal is to maintain control for the establishment. It’s why the borders will remain wide open, for example. Who cares if it’s good or bad for Americans. They printed too much money and need the bodies. Your government hates you. George Carlin was right.

Who is “the establishment” I’ve heard the establishment described as social liberals like Susan Collins as well as Social Conservatives like Mike Pence.

Fiscal Conservatives like Paul Ryan are establishment as well as big spenders like George Bush.

Is there any real criteria for “establishment”? Or is it just a slur used by Republicans on each other?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

The Hamas terrorists were all hopped up on "Jihad pills." They're a Godly lot, right?

The Jihad Pill

The Drug Used in the Hamas Terror Attack

www.justthefacts.media

 

[jet812]

so I guess would you would support an Osage Nation uprising?

I get the sentiment of the cartoon. I really do but Israel does have to respond proportionally if it wants a full seat at the international table. Those are the rules.

So they should kill 1,400 innocent Palestinians & call it a day?

If America were occupied, would you violate the rules of war to win? I'm thinking full-on "Wolverines" here.

I am not defending Hamas, I support Israel's efforts though I worry that others will turn. Heck, people on turning on Ukraine and Ukraine is the one being occupied. But the history of guerilla warfare is one where the guerillas violate the rules with impunity. I can find it wrong and realize if my family's freedom were at stake I might do the same thing. But it would make churches and schools targets. I've not criticized Israel for hitting these targets.

I suspect much of what we did in the Western campaigns would run afoul of our idea of civility in warfare.

I firmly believe though day after day reporting of hospitals out of medicine, Gaza out of food, will wear on Israeli support. Now it won't stop Israel. But it also might result in more money going into Hamas.

are people turning on Ukraine, or on our financial support of Ukraine?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

are people turning on Ukraine, or on our financial support of Ukraine?

How can you differentiate the two? What happens to Ukraine if there is no military aid?

 

[BradStevens]

The Hamas terrorists were all hopped up on "Jihad pills." They're a Godly lot, right?

The Jihad Pill

The Drug Used in the Hamas Terror Attack

www.justthefacts.media

I find this fascinating. I'd never heard of this drug.

I always forget how much of human history and warfare involves using drugs to hop up soldiers to kill.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

How can you differentiate the two? What happens to Ukraine if there is no military aid?

Zsky can go back to speaking Rus.

 

[dbmhoosier]

What an idiot.

 

[snarlcakes]

Who is “the establishment” I’ve heard the establishment described as social liberals like Susan Collins as well as Social Conservatives like Mike Pence.

Fiscal Conservatives like Paul Ryan are establishment as well as big spenders like George Bush.

Is there any real criteria for “establishment”? Or is it just a slur used by Republicans on each other?

The establishment would be the Republicans who have resided over the endless spending the past several decades. Bush would be a good example. At some point fiscal responsibility should be part of the platform.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

What an idiot.

View embedded media

Diversity hire

 

[DANC]

Diversity hire

2-for-1

 

[IUINSB]

Diversity hire

You and I spell dimwit differently.

 

[jet812]

How can you differentiate the two? What happens to Ukraine if there is no military aid?

Maybe they lose. That doesn’t mean people are turning on them, turning on them I would see as pulling for them to lose. I don’t give money to IU anymore, does that mean I’ve turned on them or just that I am unable or unwilling to pay for their cause or have other causes that take priority? I still root enthusiastically for them But have turned on them?

 

[IUCrazy2]

The more that comes out, the more hardened my position against Gaza becomes.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Joe Biden.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Joe Biden.

View embedded media

Any attack should be met by ending their oil industry.

 

[dbmhoosier]

This will not end well.

 

[hookyIU1990]

This will not end well.

View embedded media

Good thing that cop was there to take the victim's statement.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Any attack should be met by ending their oil industry.

Some good stuff here.

 

[jet812]

Joe Biden.

View embedded media

China is licking its chops, no doubt.

 

[TomEric4756]

10/23 https://www.understandingwar.org/

Iranian officials and media are continuing their attempts to deter an Israeli ground operation into the Gaza Strip while also attempting to reassure their domestic and Axis of Resistance audiences that such an operation will fail. IRGC-affiliated Tasnim News Agency outlined the “significant challenges” that Israel will face in conducting a ground operation into the Gaza Strip, highlighting Hamas’ anti-tank capabilities. Iranian state media similarly argued that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s senior advisers fear Hamas and further outlined several “challenges” facing Israeli ground operations into the strip, including declining public support, weakened relations with the Arab world, a high military death toll, and the potential for a geographic expansion of the conflict. IRGC Deputy Commander Brigadier General Ali Fadavi similarly warned that Israel would suffer a “disgraceful” defeat at the hands of the Palestinian resistance were it to enter the Gaza Strip during an interview IRGC-affiliated Fars News Agency.

ISW also published a map showing a military exclusion zone around Gaza, and a second showing the US bases attacked in Syria.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-october-23-2023

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Israel has to do what is in her interests. I've not opposed that. I just don't think time is completely on her side. The longer the bombardment phase goes on, the harder it will be for countries to stay with her. A country blind with rage might not see what is in their long-term interests, you know, they might decide to invade Iraq as an example.

I wonder if Israel's huge call-up, the movement to the border, the signals the invasion is imminent, are all a ruse? I don't think so, but I can't rule it out. Hamas clearly would have a plan to fight an Israeli incursion. Their forces would be stationed according to that plan. As long as Israel threatens, Hamas is more or less locked into place. Much like the fear of sabotage at Pearl locked our fighters into being clustered to be easily defended from a ground attack. If Israel has some knowledge of Hamas's plans, they can hit them based on those plans without coming in.

Israel’s enemies are not only those who fire rockets and slaughter people in their homes. Their enemies have also perfected and manipulated public opinion against Israel with lies. Anti-iIsrael and pro--Hamas demonstrations are in our streets, colleges and in the United States Capitol. They are all over the world. I am astounded about how our media had a fit over so-called Russian misinformation in 2016, yet it amplifies pro-Hamas orchestrated misinformation. It seems as though the media is pissed because Israel didn’t bomb the hospital.

Israel didn’t wake up the morning of October 7 and decide to bomb Gaza. Israel‘s violent actions have a,ways been in response to terror. That simple fact is missing and instead we hear lies about apartheid, colonialism and more. This is all deliberate. Israel would pull back in a nano-second if Iran would say Israel can exist and it will live in peace. The Palestinian and Iranian interest is perpetual Jew hate. Unfortunately their messaging finds sympathetic ears in the United States and elsewhere. It’s insidious.

 

[TomEric4756]

What an idiot.

View embedded media

Yes, I heard there are thousands more hate crimes targeting Jews than targeting Muslims in the US.

Responses are a necessary fact of an asymmetric warfare with declared terrorists. If there is no ‘loss function’ there can be no moderation of the terrorists ambitions.

 

[DANC]

Israel’s enemies are not only those who fire rockets and slaughter people in their homes. Their enemies have also perfected and manipulated public opinion against Israel with lies. Anti-iIsrael and pro--Hamas demonstrations are in our streets, colleges and in the United States Capitol. They are all over the world. I am astounded about how our media had a fit over so-called Russian misinformation in 2016, yet it amplifies pro-Hamas orchestrated misinformation. It seems as though the media is pissed because Israel didn’t bomb the hospital.

Israel didn’t wake up the morning of October 7 and decide to bomb Gaza. Israel‘s violent actions have a,ways been in response to terror. That simple fact is missing and instead we hear lies about apartheid, colonialism and more. This is all deliberate. Israel would pull back in a nano-second if Iran would say Israel can exist and it will live in peace. The Palestinian and Iranian interest is perpetual Jew hate. Unfortunately their messaging finds sympathetic ears in the United States and elsewhere. It’s insidious.

This is the attitude toward Jews pre-WWII. And we wonder how the concentration camps ever were allowed to happen.

 

[BradStevens]

Some good stuff here.

View embedded media

Interesting guest. A few things:

(1) The colonel says Biden is being too belligerent towards Iran. CoH previously was saying Biden is too weak with Iran.

(2) Is he really saying we need to worry about a military conflict with Iran? We toppled Iraq in just a few months. Is Iran now much stronger than Iraq was in 2003?

(3) He says we need to fear Iranian cyber hackers. Really? Our cyber geeks can't throttle theirs? That seems unlikely. (Ive heard the same re NKorea, though).

(4) He speculates Russia would get involved. They want a two-front war, with us on one of those fronts? They are dumb, but not that dumb. I'd be much more worried about China's response.