Israel under attack from Hamas

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I understand why so many people died. But my point, which I backed up with an article that quoted IDF personnel, is still true: Israel has decided that a high civilian death rate is justified.

If it were you, I’d expect America to do the same. One Israeli life is worth far more than anything in Gaza to Israelis and the government. That’s how it should be.

This isn’t like Britney Griner. These people were taken, against their will, from their homeland.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If it were you, I’d expect America to do the same. One Israeli life is worth far more than anything in Gaza to Israelis and the government. That’s how it should be.

This isn’t like Britney Griner. These people were taken, against their will, from their homeland.

I would, as well. Do you see me condemning Israel? No. But I can still be honest about what we are witnessing.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I understand why so many people died. But my point, which I backed up with an article that quoted IDF personnel, is still true: Israel has decided that a high civilian death rate is justified.

And my assertion is they believe this because the whole civilian facade was turned on its head when "civilians" were the kidnappers on 10/7 and "civilians" are the hostage holders now. Every "civilian" like that deserves whatever is coming their way and those not like that ha e no one to blame but their neighbors and Hamas should they get caught in that crossfire.

The Palestinians are the largest offender of this, but those Middle Eastern/Islamic countries like to pull this shit all the time. Everything was "Allah be Praised" on 10/7 and throngs of people coming out to celebrate as bodies were literally drug through their streets. The "civilians" actively participating. Then when the people they attacked respond it is all Pikachu face and "How could you do this to us?" when they inevitably get their asses kicked.

I don't find it surprising in the least that Israel decided to be far less concerned about civilian deaths (real or otherwise) in the short term. Not after October 7. I think they will probably eventually get back to that point, but for now the gloves are clearly off.

 

[76-1]

When I first heard about this today I assumed it was some bad ass special operations shit. Get in. Get out. Smoke a few bad guys. Rescue the hostages.

Potentially 100’s dead? 100’s more wounded?

Real discretion that IDF has.

I know their obligation is not to Gazan’s, it’s to their own people. But I don’t want to hear about how Israel is trying to minimize civilians casualties.

They had a major problem during the exfile...

They did what they needed to do...

I don't shed any tears for people who support burning infants alive in an oven... F'em...

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Maybe those 5 Americans just aren’t real Americans because. . .

And they slaughtered 30 Americans on October 7.

Reagan bombed Libya when a Muslim attack killed one American and wounded more. Biden’s immediate response to 30 dead, more maimed, and more hostages :

1. We need a 2 State solution
2. We can’t piss anyone off by a military response
3. We must protect Gazans.

Weeks later Biden released additional sanctioned money to Iran. He should have given that money to the hurting American families.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I would, as well. Do you see me condemning Israel? No. But I can still be honest about what we are witnessing.

I don’t think you are being completely honest. You mentioned that Israel said a certain amount of civilian deaths is “acceptable”. Your omitted context is that Israel will also take all reasonable and appropriate measures to avoid civilian casualties.

 

[manichi]

And they slaughtered 30 Americans on October 7.

Reagan bombed Libya when a Muslim attack killed one American and wounded more. Biden’s immediate response to 30 dead, more maimed, and more hostages :

1. We need a 2 State solution
2. We can’t piss anyone off by a military response
3. We must protect Gazans.

Weeks later Biden released additional sanctioned money to Iran. He should have given that money to the hurting American families.

You cherry pick history and it's maddening for people who actually happen to know a little bit about this stuff.

An Iranian backed terrorist group killed 300+ in Beirut by truck bomb in 1983 (241 US service people died that day). a mere two years later Reagan illegally sold missiles to Iran to fund the Contras.

Please stop.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don’t think you are being completely honest. You mentioned that Israel said a certain amount of civilian deaths is “acceptable”. Your omitted context is that Israel will also take all reasonable and appropriate measures to avoid civilian casualties.

It's been a while, but the article said just the opposite. However, the sources quoted only blamed some things on Israeli leadership. Others were blamed on field commanders.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

An Iranian backed terrorist group killed 300+ in Beirut by truck bomb in 1983 (241 US service people died that day). a mere two years later Reagan illegally sold missiles to Iran to fund the Contras.

Please stop.

ya gotta to better than self-important irrelevance and “please stop”.

 

[manichi]

ya gotta to better than self-important irrelevance and “please stop”.

self-important irrelevance? other than sour grapes, not sure that you mean by that

you compared Reagan to Biden but then left out all the important details about Reagan. However, in your defense, it's because you don't know much about the ME or our involvement there.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

They had a major problem during the exfile...

They did what they needed to do...

I don't shed any tears for people who support burning infants alive in an oven... F'em...

I imagine something along the lines of a Mogadishu-like situation with a lot of “civilians” with guns shooting at the IDF as they were exiting the area with the hostages. I imagine many of those “civilians” were shot and surprised to be dying.

 

[DANC]

It's impressive that they can rescue anyone at all. I would think that the hostages would be held in such a fashion that, if Israeli soldiers were threatening to reach them, it would be someone's job to put a bullet in each of their heads on his way out the back door in retreat.

Probably too busy shitting themselves to remember to pull the trigger.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

And my assertion is they believe this because the whole civilian facade was turned on its head when "civilians" were the kidnappers on 10/7 and "civilians" are the hostage holders now. Every "civilian" like that deserves whatever is coming their way and those not like that ha e no one to blame but their neighbors and Hamas should they get caught in that crossfire.

The Palestinians are the largest offender of this, but those Middle Eastern/Islamic countries like to pull this shit all the time. Everything was "Allah be Praised" on 10/7 and throngs of people coming out to celebrate as bodies were literally drug through their streets. The "civilians" actively participating. Then when the people they attacked respond it is all Pikachu face and "How could you do this to us?" when they inevitably get their asses kicked.

I don't find it surprising in the least that Israel decided to be far less concerned about civilian deaths (real or otherwise) in the short term. Not after October 7. I think they will probably eventually get back to that point, but for now the gloves are clearly off.

The word "civilian" is almost always used as if it's binary. Hamas or Civilian. There's miles of grey in between Jihadist beheading people on 10/7 and newborn Palestinian baby.

 

[DANC]

You cherry pick history and it's maddening for people who actually happen to know a little bit about this stuff.

An Iranian backed terrorist group killed 300+ in Beirut by truck bomb in 1983 (241 US service people died that day). a mere two years later Reagan illegally sold missiles to Iran to fund the Contras.

Please stop.

Reagan did nothing after Beirut in 1983, other than turn tail and run.

The Libyan action took place after a nightclub in Berlin was bombed.

It's maddening that you would equate the 2.

 

[76-1]

The word "civilian" is almost always used as if it's binary. Hamas or Civilian. There's miles of grey in between Jihadist beheading people on 10/7 and newborn Palestinian baby.

There's zero "gray area" when it comes to this sort of thing:

An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

“They took the baby and put it, literally, in a kitchen oven,” Asher Moskowitz said in a video testimony.

www.jta.org

The bulk of the Gazans actively support those animals... F- em...

 

[IUCrazy2]

The word "civilian" is almost always used as if it's binary. Hamas or Civilian. There's miles of grey in between Jihadist beheading people on 10/7 and newborn Palestinian baby.

People holding a hostage are not civilians. People shooting at hostage rescuers are not civilians. Feel sorry for the kids because they can't help that their parents are idiots. Any deaths of children in a hostage rescue mission are 100% the fault of the hostage takers whose actions are the sole reason all of those people are coming together in that place and time and under those circumstances.

So Israel didn't kill anyone but terrorists and Hamas killed the rest.

 

[manichi]

Reagan did nothing after Beirut in 1983, other than turn tail and run.

The Libyan action took place after a nightclub in Berlin was bombed.

It's maddening that you would equate the 2.

when was I equating? COH tried to position Reagan, as opposed to Biden, as an example of strength and decisiveness in the ME. just an ignorant and/ or partisan claim. I'm guessing both.

ahhh, so Reagan turned tail? I think you think the US should treat every conflict like WW2. you dream big. I admire that, DANC!

 

[CO. Hoosier]

self-important irrelevance? other than sour grapes, not sure that you mean by that

you compared Reagan to Biden but then left out all the important details about Reagan. However, in your defense, it's because you don't know much about the ME or our involvement there.

If you are gonna quote a fable, you should know what it means.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

when was I equating? COH tried to position Reagan, as opposed to Biden, as an example of strength and decisiveness in the ME. just an ignorant and/ or partisan claim. I'm guessing both.

ahhh, so Reagan turned tail? I think you think the US should treat every conflict like WW2. you dream big. I admire that, DANC!

Pulling out of Lebanon without tit for tat retaliation was a decisive move fully supported by the military. Our deployment there was ill-advised and Reagan deserves criticism for that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

And my assertion is they believe this because the whole civilian facade was turned on its head when "civilians" were the kidnappers on 10/7 and "civilians" are the hostage holders now. Every "civilian" like that deserves whatever is coming their way and those not like that ha e no one to blame but their neighbors and Hamas should they get caught in that crossfire.

The Palestinians are the largest offender of this, but those Middle Eastern/Islamic countries like to pull this shit all the time. Everything was "Allah be Praised" on 10/7 and throngs of people coming out to celebrate as bodies were literally drug through their streets. The "civilians" actively participating. Then when the people they attacked respond it is all Pikachu face and "How could you do this to us?" when they inevitably get their asses kicked.

I don't find it surprising in the least that Israel decided to be far less concerned about civilian deaths (real or otherwise) in the short term. Not after October 7. I think they will probably eventually get back to that point, but for now the gloves are clearly off.

I don't find it surprising, either. At no point in this discussion was I attacking them for it. I was just offering a blunt and honest assessment of what it is.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

What we know about the raid that rescued 4 Israeli hostages from Gaza

Scores of hostages are believed to be held in densely populated areas or inside Hamas' labyrinth of tunnels, making such operations extremely complex and risky.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

What we know about the raid that rescued 4 Israeli hostages from Gaza

Scores of hostages are believed to be held in densely populated areas or inside Hamas' labyrinth of tunnels, making such operations extremely complex and risky.

www.cbsnews.com

I must say from the photos I've seen those hostages appeared to be in remarkable condition. I was expecting Auschwitz like husks of human beings who had been beaten, sexually assaulted and suffered every abuse imaginable mentally and physically. Granted it's tough to tell much from some photos but they all appear fairly okay.

Good on their caretakers.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I must say from the photos I've seen those hostages appeared to be in remarkable condition. I was expecting Auschwitz like husks of human beings who had been beaten, sexually assaulted and suffered every abuse imaginable mentally and physically. Granted it's tough to tell much from some photos but they all appear fairly okay.

Good on their caretakers.

You mean imprisoners, jailers or guards.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I must say from the photos I've seen those hostages appeared to be in remarkable condition. I was expecting Auschwitz like husks of human beings who had been beaten, sexually assaulted and suffered every abuse imaginable mentally and physically. Granted it's tough to tell much from some photos but they all appear fairly okay.

Good on their caretakers.

You mean imprisoners, jailers or guards.

Farva got something right by mentioning gray areas. It's unlikely the families tapped to hold these hostages were quite as evil as the ones who took them to begin with. They likely took decent enough care of them.

Not that it helped them in the end, of course. Must have been very empty tragic deaths for these jailors. I shudder at the thought of their likely last moments.

 

[DANC]

when was I equating? COH tried to position Reagan, as opposed to Biden, as an example of strength and decisiveness in the ME. just an ignorant and/ or partisan claim. I'm guessing both.

ahhh, so Reagan turned tail? I think you think the US should treat every conflict like WW2. you dream big. I admire that, DANC!

Now you're equating Lebanon with Nazi Germany and Japan?

I think not taking retribution - major retribution - against those who killed a few hundred Marines only encouraged future terrorism. I was amazed and ashamed Reagan didn't respond to it.

 

[manichi]

Now you're equating Lebanon with Nazi Germany and Japan?

I think not taking retribution - major retribution - against those who killed a few hundred Marines only encouraged future terrorism. I was amazed and ashamed Reagan didn't respond to it.

welp, I think we've learned that US/ western "retribution" in the ME actually leads to more terrorists -- makes their recruiting easier, turns otherwise neutral people and parties into sympathizers, draws in bigger actors. see Iraq. see afghanistan, . that's why we've been arming Israel and Saudi Arabia so heavily and trying to get them to work together (along with Turkey) over the last 20 years. we're not the ME police force that anyone there (but maybe Israel) wants. will our interests occasionally mean we go hard over there? sure, occasionally. doing so constantly and in big ways has gotten us nowhere. the real achievements have been in building up and finding common ground between our allies.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

welp, I think we've learned that US/ western "retribution" in the ME actually leads to more terrorists -- makes their recruiting easier, turns otherwise neutral people and parties into sympathizers, draws in bigger actors. see Iraq. see afghanistan, . that's why we've been arming Israel and Saudi Arabia so heavily and trying to get them to work together (along with Turkey) over the last 20 years. we're not the ME police force that anyone there (but maybe Israel) wants. will our interests occasionally mean we go hard over there? sure, occasionally. doing so constantly and in big ways has gotten us nowhere. the real achievements have been in building up and finding common ground between our allies.

Nah. That’s a way of thinking that can be highly derivative. There’s a segment of American politics that attributes every poor circumstance in the world to American action. Just draw the string back far enough.

American foreign policy is by no means perfect, but it better than everyone else’s.


And we tend to be a force for peace, stability and growth if we’re willing to see the job through.

I find this “it can’t work in the Middle East, they’re tribal and islamists”, line to be both ethnocentric and cowardly.

We can steer other cultures towards a better world. We’ve done it before. We do it a lot.

 

[DANC]

welp, I think we've learned that US/ western "retribution" in the ME actually leads to more terrorists -- makes their recruiting easier, turns otherwise neutral people and parties into sympathizers, draws in bigger actors. see Iraq. see afghanistan, . that's why we've been arming Israel and Saudi Arabia so heavily and trying to get them to work together (along with Turkey) over the last 20 years. we're not the ME police force that anyone there (but maybe Israel) wants. will our interests occasionally mean we go hard over there? sure, occasionally. doing so constantly and in big ways has gotten us nowhere. the real achievements have been in building up and finding common ground between our allies.

We weren't tied up there militarily in 1983. If we'd have dealt with it then, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with it now.

Letting the killing of so many Marines go unpunished was a huge mistake.

 

[manichi]

We weren't tied up there militarily in 1983. If we'd have dealt with it then, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with it now.

Letting the killing of so many Marines go unpunished was a huge mistake.

and the more we would have dealt with it the more there would be to deal with. on some level you must sense a pattern has developed with our involvement in the ME? Unlike COH, I think you knew the place existed before 10/7 and know it has deeply rooted issues (a great many leftover from western meddling).

not sure why you keep using words like "punishment" and "retribution." Besides the occasional PR bombing run, I'd like my liberal democracy to focus on solutions and save its bullets and political capital for the real threat (russia). I'd like us to quit thinking US troops can solve problems in the land of never-ending problems, where our very presence incites violence.

 

[manichi]

Nah. That’s a way of thinking that can be highly derivative. There’s a segment of American politics that attributes every poor circumstance in the world to American action. Just draw the string back far enough.

American foreign policy is by no means perfect, but it better than everyone else’s.


And we tend to be a force for peace, stability and growth if we’re willing to see the job through.

I find this “it can’t work in the Middle East, they’re tribal and islamists”, line to be both ethnocentric and cowardly.

We can steer other cultures towards a better world. We’ve done it before. We do it a lot.

highly derivative? have not a clue what you are trying to say there. who was talking about US politics? we're talking US foreign policy.....

sure, my dude, let's steer those cultures towards a better world. LOL

 

[BradStevens]

Farva got something right by mentioning gray areas. It's unlikely the families tapped to hold these hostages were quite as evil as the ones who took them to begin with. They likely took decent enough care of them.

Not that it helped them in the end, of course. Must have been very empty tragic deaths for these jailors. I shudder at the thought of their likely last moments.

Don’t they think they’re going to heaven as a result?

 

[BradStevens]

Nah. That’s a way of thinking that can be highly derivative. There’s a segment of American politics that attributes every poor circumstance in the world to American action. Just draw the string back far enough.

American foreign policy is by no means perfect, but it better than everyone else’s.


And we tend to be a force for peace, stability and growth if we’re willing to see the job through.

I find this “it can’t work in the Middle East, they’re tribal and islamists”, line to be both ethnocentric and cowardly.

We can steer other cultures towards a better world. We’ve done it before. We do it a lot.

Huh. I didn’t expect that response from you.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Don’t they think they’re going to heaven as a result?

I hate to be a depressing cynic, but I tend to think that one's last moments are full of clarity, and that means no hope of heaven, just tragic realization of where you are and what brought you to that point.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

UN security council endorses US-backed hostages-for-ceasefire Gaza deal

Only Russia abstains in vote on plan calling for hostage and prisoner swap in six-week ceasefire leading to wider deal

www.theguardian.com

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

UN security council endorses US-backed hostages-for-ceasefire Gaza deal

Only Russia abstains in vote on plan calling for hostage and prisoner swap in six-week ceasefire leading to wider deal

www.theguardian.com

Sounds like the only people committed to this are the people who don't matter.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

lol @WaPo… not even trying to hide their Blinkenism

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

lol @WaPo… not even trying to hide their Blinkenism

View embedded media

There’s merit to the idea that pre- 10/7 Iron Dome provided such good security that the question about what to do with the Palestinians fell off the radar.

An imminent threat demands either a political or military solution. But a mitigated threat can sit in limbo forever like the idea of Palestinian sovereignty.

 

[DANC]

View embedded media

I think the Israelis have decided this is it - it's time to wipe out these fvckers out once and for all.

 

[TomEric4756]

View embedded media

I guess Hezbollah didn’t take the last hint to stop attacking the Northern Border.