Is the Golden Rule no longer applicable to most americans?

[AEgley]

http://www.columbian.com/news/2014/dec/15/poll-majority-of-americans-ok-with-torture-cia/

"Separately, a CBS poll, also released
Monday, found that 69 percent of Americans believe waterboarding to be a
form of torture, but 49 percent say such tactics are sometimes
justified; 36 percent say they are not."

These media outlets are saying that almost 50 percent of americans agree that the use of torture was acceptable...

What a sad state of affairs.... what does that say about christianity in the US?

 

[ARMZP]

Is it really that simple and cut and dried?

Taliban-led attack on Pakistan school leaves 141 dead...

Is it ":more Christian" (since you brought it up) to get rough with one SOB to try to save 141, or set around and get to know their "heart and mind"?

I struggle with it every day....but I would error on the side of saving 141.

But that is just me.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

What do you say 'that says' about Christianity in the US?

I'm sure you have an opinion to express.

 

[Thyrsis]

Funny, I was going to ask the same thing a few days ago.

My question would have had nothing to do with water boarding or torture, though.

Cynicism, frustration, fatigue, anger and sarcasm are the rule of the day. Perhaps as a result, the Golden Rule has been trumped by pure self-interest, schadenfreude and distrust. The Golden Rule is seemingly for chumps. You can see it every day on the other forums here and in pretty much all social media and 'news' punditry (let alone political leadership).

Society has advanced in many profound ways, but there's surely a deficit here.

Frank Capra is persona non grata.


Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[VanPastorMan]

If I was part of a subversive plot to harm someone from another nation,then

I would expect to be slammed hard till I talked. I mean, the nation I am against has a vested interest in getting info out of me that might save lives. It makes sense.

 

[AEgley]

what if the person being tortured truly knows nothing...

possibly like those sent to venezuela recently.... if/since they were tortured... do you think they have a vendetta against the us now? and are creating a central/south american version of al qaeda or isis? or did we give them enough restitution money to deter their ill wills against us? and how much money might make a person forget/forgive torture?

...once that line has been crossed, you are changed forever... both the person/country who did the torturing and the person/country being tortured...

...should we have just executed them instead of torturing?.... or executed them then denied torturing... but that cat's out of the bag now isn't it....

...you were the person I wanted to hear from regarding this topic VPM... not trying to set you up... just wanted your opinion/thoughts on this...

 

[AEgley]

nothing/everything that I don't already know or suspect... nt

nt

 

[mjvcaj]

Perhaps it says that America favors reality

Not sure what you are looking for other than that.

 

[VanPastorMan]

The original post was speaking about the golden rule. I was just making the

statement that I can see why the other side would want to strongly interrogate me if I was acting against the safety of another country. If I am part of a terrorist organization then I have to know something. But let's say I don't. I put myself in this position by being part of the network. It's on me. If one of my kids is driving the getaway car,but didn't do the crime and knows very little of what went wrong, they are still guilty by their involvement and their assocations.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

What is your conclusion? You posted this.....


now you don't have any comment to make?

 

[Zizkov]

What is reality?...

I don't really follow you.

Are you saying reality is that people need to torture to be safe?

And if so, is there any evidence to back up the idea that this works? Most reasonable places/countries that used torture stopped because they found it unreliable at best.

 

[zeke4ahs]

But what if you weren't a part of a subversive plot

You do know that some of these people have not been charged with a single crime, right? You don't find that worrisome?

 

[zeke4ahs]

Isn't the point

That torture hasn't been proven as a reliable method to get valid information? So not only do we tread on losing our moral ground, we also gain nothing valuable. Lose, lose.

 

[hootch1]

So you talk.

Is it true? Do you talk even if you do not know anything? Do you give the incorrect information if you do know.

There is much faith that these techniques work with little, if any, proof that they do. In the oft mentioned "ticking time bomb" scenario, the false answer is especially effective. In the meantime, the ability of the US to be a moral leader in the world, and an ally to friendly Mideast countries is severely weakened.

 

[Rockfish1]

Who would Jesus torture?

It's appalling but not surprising to see "Christians" like the pastor here lining up behind horrific cruelty. Onward Christian soldiers, I guess.

 

[Rockfish1]

Let me get this straight

In a perversion of the Golden Rule, you're excusing torture because you speciously volunteer to be tortured if you're ever thought to be part of a terrorist plot. Well, pastor, I suspect that you're a terrorist. Please make arrangements with me to get thoroughly tortured, just in case. Among other things, what are your favorite foods, so I can grind them up and plug them up your ass? Purely for medical reasons, of course.

You are a giant hypocrite. And an ignoramus. Still, I'd be happy to torture you. Really. Anything to make us safer.

 

[DougS]

You'll have to ask Principle Poop.....

I'm hoping you were referencing "Don't Crush that Dwarf - Hand me the Pliers"

 

[Sope Creek]

Hmm . . . OK you would expect to be tortured . . .

but is there any circumstance in which you would torture someone else?

 

[i'vegotwinners]

my guess is, you'd find 99% of americans would fully condone the use of torture under certain circumstances.

and 99% would condemn it in other circumstances.


trying to separate the action from a specific situation, and make some blanket up or down affirmation or rebuke, is a complete waste of time.


the debate should be in regards to"when", not "if".


on a side note, does anyone really believe the US hasn't used torture in every war, since and including, the revolution?

or that every side in every war hasn't.

or that every side in every future war won't.


torture can be an immoral act.

it can also be immoral not to torture in certain circumstances.

claiming to be for or against, absent the exact context of the specific instance, is both moronic and disingenuous.

 

[VanPastorMan]

What you don't get is the seriousness of the situation. If water boarding

gives us info that saves American's lives and property then why wouldn't you be for it? You somehow think that war is this pretty,tidy whitey thing. War is Hell. It's supposed to be Hell. And these terrorists mean to do all of us harm. Don't you care about America? BTW, you sound like an educated guy. Do you even know the definition of hypocrite? It is saying one thing and doing another. When it comes to war I am a man who is concerned about my own country. If it saves the lives of our sons and daughters then turn on the water faucet. But you want to coddle these terrorists, and for what reason I can't fathom. Go ahead, take the high road if you want,but it will cause our people to die. Do you even care about this?

 

[VanPastorMan]

I don't see water boarding as torture. What John McCain went through was

torture. I would be for any circumstance that saves American lives. If waterboarding can give us intel, then I am for it. Also, I don't buy this narrative today that we got nothing from waterboarding. KSM spilled his guts and provided intel that led to the killing of OBL. He also gave intel that saved a terror plot in England. Waterboarding works, and when you are in a war, especially of the kind muslim extremists are waging, then we have to get intel. We are not talking about gouging out eyes or cutting off limbs. We are talking about causing a choking sensation,that will not ultimately kill or permanently harm a person. But since they think they are dying because of the choking. They give up intel that saves American lives.

 

[davegolf]

Re: What is reality?...


Reality is using ever means available to discover plots of terrorism and stop them if at all possible before another 9/11 or innocent children murdered by zealots. .

 

[zeke4ahs]

It isn't always black and white like you prefer to pretend

Once again, there were people that were tortured and are still in captivity that were never charged with a single crime. Not a single crime. Do you approve of that? We did this to some people that we have no idea if they knew anything or not. It's still a slippery slope, and something the United States used to pride itself upon. If torture others, than you have to be ok with our guys getting tortured too. I personally don't think that's a very Christian thing to do. It's easy to say let's do it if it saves a bunch of lives, but again, you do surely know that it wasn't proven to save lives at all. It just made the US look even worse to the rest of the world, . Are you proud of that?

 

[Rockfish1]

Since we're in the Christmas season . . .

It's useful for everyone to stop and consider what this self-proclaimed Christian pastor has to say.

Immoral? Check.

Illegal? Check.

Ignorant? Check.

Aggressively stupid? Check.

Un-American? Check.

Corrosively toxic? Check.

Cowardly? Check.

This is Republican Jesus. He resembles the real Jesus, the Prince of Peace, in absolutely no way. He is wrong and stupid and bad and evil, and he speaks preposterously from a pulpit. Judged by his own primitive measure, he should be stoned.

If I haven't yet made myself clear, I think VanPastorMan is a terrible human, and speaking as one who grew up among wonderful Christians, I'm astonished that he isn't otherwise called out for who he obviously is. Apparently this agnostic has more respect for Christianity than the board's Christians do. He and Accuro deserve their own special place, and that place isn't here.

 

[ARMZP]

No that hasn't been proven

I have to believe that the people doing this know more about it than I do, and if it didn't work, they wouldn't do it.

Unlike Rock, I don't always pretend to know everything about everything.

 

[dahldc]

As a Christian and a leader of a church, you should be ashamed

I can not believe that in any form you believe torture is morally right. If I was a member of your church I would immediately ask the elders for your removal as a Pastor.

It is absolutely reprehensible in any form.

WWJD?

He'd admonish you.

I'm disgusted you call yourself a pastor and a Christian.

 

[Rockfish1]

That's nonsense

First, I absolutely do get "the seriousness of the situation". But unlike bedwetters such as yourself, I recognize that this is not remotely as serious as the threat of nuclear annihilation that I grew up with. I don't know how old you are, pastor, but when I was a little boy I did duck-and-cover drills, along with my classmates. These drills taught us how to pointlessly cower under our desks if there were a nuclear holocaust that would have incinerated us . Since I lived on a military base, we all stopped every day at Taps, no matter where we were or what we were doing, to honor the day's dead, lost in the Vietnam war. With this as context, and having watched the two towers fall in live time, I feel like I understand "the seriousness of the situation".

But here's the thing, pastor. I understand that at serious times we should ignore the galactically stupid. When the stakes are highest, it becomes the most urgent that we ignore mouth-breathing morons such as yourself. It's appalling that, at least in your little flock, you are the voice of the Lord's word. You are a terrible person.