Remember, 2nd place is the first loser.
And yes, Carmel having one high school is absolutely stupid, especially with the growth on the west side.
And yes, Carmel having one high school is absolutely stupid, especially with the growth on the west side.
There are some large (similar size), successful suburban high schools that have been elite public schools for a long time. It's all amount management and student attention and resources.
5500 students in one high school. Also the high school is on the EAST side of town. Students on the west side of Carmel are closer to mulitiple different highschools. Also, a good % of folks in Carmel still send their kids to private schools (I laugh all the way to the bank on that one).
They have a choice. But taxpayer money has no business funding private schools
Carmel having 5,000 kids means that no school in the Indy metro will ever split, regardless of enrollment growth. Hell Carmel can’t split now because both of the new schools would be smaller than HSE, Fishers, Noblesville, and Westfield.
I don't really have a problem with Carmel having only the one high school. I think it makes it harder (and much more expensive) to find the right people at the administrative level.
To be sure, Carmel high school's budget probably exceeds Marian University at this point, and by some margin.
Yep, let's make sure to keep the poor/ middle class kids in failing public schools. I don't want them mingling with my kids at private school, either.
I doubt the poor and middle class are affording private schools either way. Vouchers only accomplish taking more money away from already failing public schools so rich kids don't have to pay quite as much for their private school.
1) every voucher state has income limits, so "rich" kids still have to pay 2) in Indiana vouchers pay 90% of the tuition and are used exclusively by poor and middle class families.... same as in other states such as Wisconsin
See....
Indiana Choice Scholarship Program
No need to doubt. It actually makes it affordable for middle class families. For example Guerin Catholic goes from 15-17k to 7-9k. Private middle schools are even more affordable. The one we have looked at went from around 6-7k to 1-2k because of the voucher program.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I don't think he needs to go that far. He just needs to argue that the cons outweight the pros to public sector unions. I think he's right and I don't think it's very close. Illinois is Exhibit A.
There are issues with public unions, but there are ways to control them.
The problem I see is that frequently managers are poorly trained and don't know the rules themselves, content with "do as I say". I understand why workers do not want to just trust management, seldom (as in unicorn rare) does management consider what is in the best interest of the workers.
When it gets to police and fire, the union can be a good representative in what safety equipment to buy. I have linked in the past articles on unions negotiating for more/better equipment.
In 22 years on this board, I do not know I have seen a Republican here support any union, public or private.
Public unions should not strike, that includes teachers. But I think they are an effective counter to administrators who do not at all understand the front line jobs.
1) every voucher state has income limits, so "rich" kids still have to pay 2) in Indiana vouchers pay 90% of the tuition and are used exclusively by poor and middle class families.... same as in other states such as Wisconsin
See....
Indiana Choice Scholarship Program
www.in.gov
Thanks for the correction but it is still public money going to private schools and I am guessing private schools are still largely attended by the wealthy kids. Now they just need to lure some poorer ones to bring in public money.
The solution to the publoc education system isn't taking away money from it.
Illinois is ranked as the 15th best school system in the US. Indiana is ranked 22nd. Also, notice who makes up the top school systems in the US and who makes up the bottom of the barrel (hint: The best school are all blue states, besides Nebraska).
Here's another list from US News (Illinois is ranked 11th):
Here's another list from US News (Illinois is ranked 11th):
The problem with private schools is students get a steady diet of the King James Version. as the Un errored word of God. The founders thought public education so important it was included in the Northwest Ordinance.
Public schools are tax-funded baby-sitting services.
Three generations of idiots are enough. Signed, Justice Brandeis.
Three generations of idiots are enough. Signed, Justice Brandeis.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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FDR the democrat icon was very opposed to public unions because they only had taxpayers to bargain with which meant bureaucrats only had to give in.
As long as you're okay with police officers, firemen, EMTs, bus drivers, and others not being able to collectively bargain.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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Good article on the history of public sector unions and the arguments against them.
The Trouble with Public Sector Unions
Across the country, state and local governments are being crushed by huge deficits and debts, often caused by the disproportionately generous salaries, benefits, and pensions pledged to unionized public workers. How did so many of America's public em...
www.nationalaffairs.com
I agree that the increased costs you see between states is typically due to this phenomenon. But I'm not sure you can argue unionized teachers are worse at teaching than non-unionized ones.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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If you are interested in fixing public education K-12 and you want to close the racial achievement gap, this guy has tried to apply data and discovered some basic methods that appear to work. Unsurprisingly, the solution has nothing to do with teaching antiracism, the evils of Whiteness, etc. in schools:
Quick take away: (1) use data to identify weaknesses in kids; (2) use small groups (under 6 per group) to tutor and spend extra time on those weaknesses; (3) incentives work (although are tough to craft to get the outcome you want).
Quick take away: (1) use data to identify weaknesses in kids; (2) use small groups (under 6 per group) to tutor and spend extra time on those weaknesses; (3) incentives work (although are tough to craft to get the outcome you want).
That's pretty misleading. People supporting teaching history as it actually happened isn't the same as teaching that whiteness is evil. Furthermore, teaching that racism is bad also shouldn't be an issue as that is something I would have hoped everyone would agree on.
The good, the bad and the ugly should all be taught. Not whitewashed like Columbus found America and was somehow this awesome guy that was smarter than everyone else and leaving it at that.
BLM, 1619, Nancy Pelosi, VP Harris and P Biden all say you are a racist. So do their sycophants at the keyboards. That’s just the way it is.
Could use a refresher course.Ha, how are your hieroglyphics?
But, it’s been tough dealing with crayon colors. The big boxes we had weren’t as large as they are now. All the colors hadn’t been invented yet. . . .
(You know how they get all the names for paint color, right? They get a dozen or so people in a room, get them drunk as shit and then have them shout out names as the colors are flashed on a screen. That’s how you get “Shimmering Mushroom Mist” and other classics.)
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
It’s crazier than that. In many of these schools, they think it is inequitable to require students who are failing or not at grade level to do more work to catch up.
They also complain about the stigma of singling kids out to work in groups with tutors to focus on their weaknesses, because pointing out weaknesses (or the converse, strengths in gifted kids) is itself not equitable. It’s madness.
Depends. When they name the groups, The Explorers, by way of one example, it’s hard not to be stigmatized
IUH, in my view, history depends on who you believe and what you want to believe along with when and how you learned it,
History following the Civil War as taught in my 1950s high school history class consisted of learning dates, names, and events. No controversy, just data.
Then in college I was taught by Howard K. Beale about a complex set of "facts" concerning the period of reconstruction following the Civil War. Northern Republican industrialists manipulated the newly elected black political leaders for their own economic gain.
After college I learned the Beale thesis was replaced with a new interpretation of the Reconstruction Era as taught by Robert P. Sharkey, Irwin Unger, and Stanley Coben. They conclusively demonstrated that there was no unified economic policy on the part of the dominant Republican Party, and there was no conspiracy to use Reconstruction to impose any such unified economic policy on the nation.
For a different slant I offer the current Equal Justice Institution position which in part states the following...
Within a decade after the Civil War, Congress began to abandon the promise of assistance to millions of formerly enslaved Black people. Violence, mass lynchings, and lawlessness enabled white Southerners to create a regime of white supremacy and Black disenfranchisement alongside a new economic order that continued to exploit Black labor.
They take 90% of what the state otherwise would have contributed to the public school for that student, and allow the parent to take that 90% towards the tuition at the private school. The amount of tuition the private school charges can be significant more (or less in some cases) but that doesn't factor into to the amount of the voucher.1) every voucher state has income limits, so "rich" kids still have to pay 2) in Indiana vouchers pay 90% of the tuition and are used exclusively by poor and middle class families.... same as in other states such as Wisconsin
See....
Indiana Choice Scholarship Program
True. We can't even agree on the facts in regards to present day, let alone what happened a long time ago.
But him trying to claim that other people are wanting schools to teach "the evils of whiteness" is nothing but a purposeful misrepresentation to make them look bad.
It's a common tactic in politics. Get people to believe the other side is awful through misrepresenting their views and they become much more likely to be agreeable to your own.
The issues with public education extend far beyond disagreements on what should get taught in history class though.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
But the solution can’t be to stop identifying weaknesses and doing extra work to overcome/correct them. That’s the old ignore-your-problem-and-it’ll-go-away approach.
More work, targeted assistance, high expectations. That’s what the data says works. But Fryer can’t get people to engage with his findings because of politics and assumptions on the left and right.
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My teacher spouse and friends in inner city Indy tell me nothing about CRT, and go on and on about how they spend a big part of their day using data to differentiate instruction in both their blocks (reading and math). Small groups are over half the time, with the other half being whole class instruction. Groups are based on assessment results, and teachers are held accountable for student growth. Experienced kindergarten teachers I talk to say that kindergarten has basically become 1st/2nd grade. Old time kindergarten school marms remember a time when their day was filled with instilling a joy in learning and a love of school. Now, it's all about scores. and standardized test results...yes, at the K level. I really do wonder who was behind such widespread changes in that framework.
Anyone?
And IPS kids still struggle, even at the youngest of grades, before they have been "ruined" by "horrible public education".
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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That's good to hear that they are doing that.
Re the horrible public education, you have to admit, Bulk, some of those specific #s in Illinois schools are horrific. With kids who are behind, you have to catch them up--a lot of data says that if the kid is behind by as early as 3rd grade, it's tough for them to catch up.
But if the IPS experience is making kids miserable, or leading to those kids skipping or dropping out of school, then obviously they need to work on that.
I agree that we need kids to feel comfortable (that doesn't mean "not challenged") and safe at school, which, by the way, is one big reason for instructing teachers on culturally appropriate communication skills, ability to identify gender confusion, stopping bullying, social and emotional learning (done right), etc. THAT is the version of "wokeness" I support. Of course, good teachers have always been doing that (minus the gender confusion, which is a relatively new thing).
"They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear..."
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