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How do transgender women (biological men) live with themselves . . .

Wow. I hope humans never use AI this way. This like using AI to decide the scope and extent of inalienable rights.

I don’t think the issue is complicated at all. The presence of the Y chromosome means you are ineligible for women sports. Simple. Objective. Easily applied. Fair.
FNC’s Dr. Siegel disagrees with me.

His opinion raises two questions

1. Hormone levels are easily manipulated

2. The presence of the Y chromosome means the individual will have developed as a male even though testosterone might be suppressed at the time of competition.

 
I don’t understand. You already can prove a discrimination case using disparate impact standards.
You need to be able to define men and women to sort them out and figure out the impact on each sex. So you need some sort of definition.

How does the Gorsuch opinion provide a simple definition that can be used to classify this boxer? I don’t have the opinion on front of me. Just going off the link you provided.
 
Indeed I would. We don’t need AI to determine the presence of a Y chromosome. . Using complicated data beyond obvious biology that we would need AI to crunch is silly.

Clarification, wanted to suggest A1 could be used to tell the Oympic officials how best to determine gender in order to confirm they are using the best approach.
 
You need to be able to define men and women to sort them out and figure out the impact on each sex. So you need some sort of definition.

How does the Gorsuch opinion provide a simple definition that can be used to classify this boxer? I don’t have the opinion on front of me. Just going off the link you provided.
Using the Y chromosome as determinative, M/F definition for athletic competition is resolved. I think that definition would hold up in court. It’s kinda analogous to a BFOQ.

In cases where the M/F distinction isn’t as important, I think the Gorsuch reasoning would answer most questions. The tension will happen in situations where the importance of the distinction is disputed. I think that would be a case-by - case analysis.
 
More analysis:


In these cases on the margin, this stuff isn't as easy as it might seem (at least to me).
 
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More analysis:


In these cases on the margin, this stuff isn't as easy as it might seem (at least to me).
Super shitty if just born that way
 
Super shitty if just born that way
Yeah, that boxer doesn't deserve to have the whole trans movement thrown on her. She might not have ever been aware of all the stuff going on inside her, and always thought she was a female who just had some ****ed up health problems, rather than a male who has them.

From that post:

a.) Does Khelif have a DSD? Almost certainly, since the chromosomes, testosterone levels, and physiognamy suggest that Khelif is a biological male, but the genitalia probably are female-like, although we don’t know for sure. At any rate, there was some phenotypic trait that caused Khelif to be raised as a female.

b.) Was the DSD XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD)? It’s likely since Hooven discusses it at length. This is in fact the same DSD that Caster Semenya had: according to the BBC:

The 2018 rules meant that Semenya could not compete in female track events over this distance without taking testosterone-reducing drugs.
She appealed against World Athletics’ proposal at the Switzerland-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas), but eventually lost in what amounted to a landmark case in 2019.
It was in the Cas ruling that Semenya’s specific DSD was confirmed as 46 XY 5-ARD (5-alpha-reductase deficiency). People with this particular DSD have the male XY chromosomes. Some are assigned female or male at birth depending on their external genitalia.
Semenya told BBC Sport that she was “born without a uterus” and born “with internal testicles” and said: “I am a woman and have a vagina”.
Cas said, external athletes like Semenya with 5-ARD have “circulating testosterone at the level of the male 46 XY population and not at the level of the female 46 XX population”, which gives them “a significant sporting advantage over 46 XX female athletes”.
Given that Semenya has the equipment (though perhaps not the ability) for making sperm, Semenya is biologically male. So is Khelif, though people are loath to say it or use the pronoun “he” (check their Wikipedia entries). It’s possible that Khelif has another DSD, PAIS D (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome), but this is less likely based on phenotype; and this condition is rarer.

. . . which leads us to the next question:

c.) Is Khelif a man? if he has 5-ARD and went through male puberty, producing testosterone at higher male levels (these don’t overlap with female levels), levels that require suppression to meet sports standards, the answer is yes. Female-like genitalia don’t make someone a biological woman if they have testes (see above).

But there is one last question, and the most relevant one.

d.) Should Khelif be competing in women’s boxing? Given what we know of his size, strength, and performance, as well as his XY status and what must have been high testosterone, the answer is, at present, no. Suppressing testosterone in his case will not eliminate any athletic advantages Khelif accrued by going through male puberty. But further investigation would be useful (see below).

e.) How should sports organizations determine if someone has a sex-based athletic advantage? Ideally, it should be a three-part test. First, are there testes or ovaries? If there are testes, that’s already a sign of male advantage, particularly when accompanied by an XY karyotype. Further tests can examine testosterone levels and exposure as well as sequencing of the DNA to see if there are genetic mutations causing DSDs. But there’s already enough information from Khelif’s obvious athletic advantages and his XY karyotype to mandate banning him/her from boxing until these other issues are examined.

Finally, let me add that most people having DSDs are not athletes in the limelight, and in fact have to deal with medical, emotional, and social issues that arise in conjunction with having DSDs. These people should not be regarded as freaks, have the same moral and legal equality as the non-afflicted, and should be treated with empathy
 
More analysis:


In these cases on the margin, this stuff isn't as easy as it might seem (at least to me).
Black Swans always present thorny legal and administrative delimas. They are usually unresolvable and we can’t change that. In this particular case, I come down with the objective chromosome test as being the best answer. The world isn’t perfect.
 
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Black Swans always present thorny legal and administrative delimas. They are usually unresolvable and we can’t change that. In this particular case, I come down with the objective chromosome test as being the best answer. The world isn’t perfect.
If the Algerian has the DSD described, it is very rare: "5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD) is a rare autosomal recessive disorder that affects sex development. The exact incidence of 5-ARD is unknown, but a 2020 study identified 434 cases across 44 countries. The condition is more common in countries with high rates of consanguineous marriages, such as the Dominican Republic, Papua New Guinea, Turkey, and Lebanon."
 
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Trans have won the war. When you have trans with special invites to read to Kindergarten kids, you know it’s over.

Is there such a thing as winning in the culture war as the war itself threatens to divide us beyond repair ?
 
Is there such a thing as winning in the culture war as the war itself threatens to divide us beyond repair ?
Understand what you’re saying. I think there is such a thing as a culture war. Personally I don’t care what Trans or any other sexual misfits do in their personal lives. Just please leave it in their personal lives.
 
Understand what you’re saying. I think there is such a thing as a culture war. Personally I don’t care what Trans or any other sexual misfits do in their personal lives. Just please leave it in their personal lives.

I of course agree. But this topic has seemed to become much bigger in political talk than in the real world. While I know plenty of gay people... In my 45 years of life I'm not sure I've ever actually known a trans person, nor even known anyone that really knew a trans person. They seem like unicorns. I don't know why this has become such a hotspot and also don't understand why the Dems have latched onto it. It's bad politics and makes no sense. This is a party that wouldn't even support gay marriage 15 years ago.
 
Yeah, that boxer doesn't deserve to have the whole trans movement thrown on her. She might not have ever been aware of all the stuff going on inside her, and always thought she was a female who just had some ****ed up health problems, rather than a male who has them.

From that post:

a.) Does Khelif have a DSD? Almost certainly, since the chromosomes, testosterone levels, and physiognamy suggest that Khelif is a biological male, but the genitalia probably are female-like, although we don’t know for sure. At any rate, there was some phenotypic trait that caused Khelif to be raised as a female.

b.) Was the DSD XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD)? It’s likely since Hooven discusses it at length. This is in fact the same DSD that Caster Semenya had: according to the BBC:


Given that Semenya has the equipment (though perhaps not the ability) for making sperm, Semenya is biologically male. So is Khelif, though people are loath to say it or use the pronoun “he” (check their Wikipedia entries). It’s possible that Khelif has another DSD, PAIS D (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome), but this is less likely based on phenotype; and this condition is rarer.

. . . which leads us to the next question:

c.) Is Khelif a man? if he has 5-ARD and went through male puberty, producing testosterone at higher male levels (these don’t overlap with female levels), levels that require suppression to meet sports standards, the answer is yes. Female-like genitalia don’t make someone a biological woman if they have testes (see above).

But there is one last question, and the most relevant one.

d.) Should Khelif be competing in women’s boxing? Given what we know of his size, strength, and performance, as well as his XY status and what must have been high testosterone, the answer is, at present, no. Suppressing testosterone in his case will not eliminate any athletic advantages Khelif accrued by going through male puberty. But further investigation would be useful (see below).

e.) How should sports organizations determine if someone has a sex-based athletic advantage? Ideally, it should be a three-part test. First, are there testes or ovaries? If there are testes, that’s already a sign of male advantage, particularly when accompanied by an XY karyotype. Further tests can examine testosterone levels and exposure as well as sequencing of the DNA to see if there are genetic mutations causing DSDs. But there’s already enough information from Khelif’s obvious athletic advantages and his XY karyotype to mandate banning him/her from boxing until these other issues are examined.

Finally, let me add that most people having DSDs are not athletes in the limelight, and in fact have to deal with medical, emotional, and social issues that arise in conjunction with having DSDs. These people should not be regarded as freaks, have the same moral and legal equality as the non-afflicted, and should be treated with empathy


I'm pretty sure they Katie Ladecky would knock me out in a boxing match before we got our gloves up
 
Black Swans always present thorny legal and administrative delimas. They are usually unresolvable and we can’t change that. In this particular case, I come down with the objective chromosome test as being the best answer. The world isn’t perfect.

It's sport. Not war.

Women's boxing. I'd rather watch table tennis
 
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Is there such a thing as winning in the culture war as the war itself threatens to divide us beyond repair ?
I think gay rights advocates won that war pretty handily. Now, even many longtime conservatives will say they don't really care about gay marriage, and I bet if you polled people, 90%+ would be against laws that outlaw homosexual sex. Homosexuality is accepted now in a way unimaginable in the 1980s.
 
I think gay rights advocates won that war pretty handily. Now, even many longtime conservatives will say they don't really care about gay marriage, and I bet if you polled people, 90%+ would be against laws that outlaw homosexual sex. Homosexuality is accepted now in a way unimaginable in the 1980s.
Gay Marriage is an abomination and Obergefell is one of the worst SCOTUS decisions ever.
 
Joe Rogan on reddit:

Imane Khelif the Algerian Boxer

Mindlessly consuming misinformation is bad for you, here are the facts: 1- She was born a woman with female organs 2- her father didn't want her at first to box since she's a girl 3-She was disqualified in 2023 due to a test for apparently having XY chromosomes by the IBA by a test which methods weren't and haven't been disclosed 4- The right has always operated by the logic that a woman is a human being with female genitalia, i guess they can't define a woman now? 3- The olympics by function is a contest of genetic freaks, Michael Phelps has half the lactic acid(what causes fatigue) a human has, torso of a 6"8 man, double-jointed ankles bend 15 percent more than his rivals, hyperjointed in the chest aswell, Double-jointed elbows, Katie Ledecky who just won gold is similar in those advantages aswell, should they be stripped aswell and not allowed to compete due to those genetic advantages ? Why is Imane being punished for hers?

r/JoeRogan - Imane Khelif the Algerian Boxer, who everybody is being fed fake news about, in her younger days
There’s an obvious difference here - her power can lead to direct injury or death of her opponent.
 
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Doesn’t that permit gender assignment surgery patients to get in? That would be a fault.
See Spartan's edit to my post above. I think "at birth" would be assumed, at least for sports.

For reasons others have linked, though, it's possible for sports, chromosome or hormone testing would be better.

Honestly, when I jumped in, it was more about people incorrectly assuming she was a trans athlete, rather than someone who had actually been born and raised a female.
 
I think gay rights advocates won that war pretty handily. Now, even many longtime conservatives will say they don't really care about gay marriage, and I bet if you polled people, 90%+ would be against laws that outlaw homosexual sex. Homosexuality is accepted now in a way unimaginable in the 1980s.
The war to establish gay rights appears to be a head fake. (I fell for it too). It didn’t take long for these “gay rights advocates” to add ‘T” (and infinite + + + …) to their cause just to continue the war. The warriors have reached mainstream Democrats now. The war is actually a war on normalcy. As soon as a social characteristic become traditional and normal, some moron will declare war on it and claim it is exclusionary, bigoted, and divisive.

NYPICHPDPICT000012651075-1.jpg
 
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Understand what you’re saying. I think there is such a thing as a culture war. Personally I don’t care what Trans or any other sexual misfits do in their personal lives. Just please leave it in their personal lives.

Stoll, the culture war to which I refer goes well beyond bringing attention to a Trans boxer competing in the Olympics which this thread is about.

The culture war to which I refer is about the conflict between social groups often labeled "conservatives" and "liberals" who struggle to politically impose their own ideology (moral beliefs, religious practices, humanistic virtues) upon mainstream society.

There was a time when Democrats and Republicans shared important values and built policies around those shared values.. Disagreements were about the best ways to use government to promote the economy and keep the streets clean.

These days the disagreements are about wedge issues which include arguments over values, morality, and lifestyle.

We can no longer let Trans just be Trans. Instead they are "misfits" who liberals allow to harm innocent female boxers. Then there are conservatives out to destroy democracy.

The culture war is about looking for wedge issues and using them in an attempt to illustrate the other guys are destroying the very values which made our country great.
 
Stoll, the culture war to which I refer goes well beyond bringing attention to a Trans boxer competing in the Olympics which this thread is about.

The culture war to which I refer is about the conflict between social groups often labeled "conservatives" and "liberals" who struggle to politically impose their own ideology (moral beliefs, religious practices, humanistic virtues) upon mainstream society.

There was a time when Democrats and Republicans shared important values and built policies around those shared values.. Disagreements were about the best ways to use government to promote the economy and keep the streets clean.

These days the disagreements are about wedge issues which include arguments over values, morality, and lifestyle.

We can no longer let Trans just be Trans. Instead they are "misfits" who liberals allow to harm innocent female boxers. Then there are conservatives out to destroy democracy.

The culture war is about looking for wedge issues and using them in an attempt to illustrate the other guys are destroying the very values which made our country great.
I think you are on the right track here.

I think the cause is rooted in intellectual laziness, dumbing down of our collective intelligence, and politics.

For millions of voters, it is more important to think of the first female of color to be president than it is to think about hard policy issues regarding said female of color. I think Trump was exactly right to blow up this issue by wondering what category Kamal belongs in, but he did it in a terribly hamfisted manner. For many, her ethnic designation is most important.

And it isn’t just skin color that matters. In Trumps case people put personality above policy when deciding who to vote for.

We’ve had many different flavors of these discussions. It’s as if our elected officials are not expected to know stuff, they are expected to belong to a certain group. Then we hire elite experts to do actual governance.

Think about Kamal for a moment. When in our lifetimes has a candidate for president not answered a single question or sat for an interview after becoming the candidate? It seems as though her immutable characteristics is all she needs.
 
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The war to establish gay rights appears to be a head fake. (I fell for it too). It didn’t take long for these “gay rights advocates” to add ‘T” (and infinite + + + …) to their cause just to continue the war. The warriors have reached mainstream Democrats now. The war is actually a war on normalcy. As soon as a social characteristic become traditional and normal, some moron will declare war on it and claim it is exclusionary, bigoted, and divisive.

NYPICHPDPICT000012651075-1.jpg

"These" gay rights advocates?

All people who advocated gay rights aren't equivalent. Grouping together a set of individuals over decades based on whether they advocate for gay rights, as if they then share all other political views is illogical and unhepful.

An analogy: past racial civil rights leaders for black Americans pushed for equality of opportunity. Today, racial civil rights leaders push for equity--equality of outcome. Does that mean the civil rights movement of the '60s was a "head fake?"
 
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The culture war is about looking for wedge issues and using them in an attempt to illustrate the other guys are destroying the very values which made our country great.
I disagree with this hoot1. I've never considered the "culture wars" as anything other than people having strongly held beliefs clashing about social issues.

I think the term is now used pejoratively on a subject that one side or the other can't or doesn't want to fight on the merits and so tries to minimize or delegitimize the arguments of the other side.
 
I've not followed it this closely, but does it change anyone's feelings the fact the woman produces extra testosterone versus being a transvestite? I guess her birth certificate is female.
 
I disagree with this hoot1. I've never considered the "culture wars" as anything other than people having strongly held beliefs clashing about social issues.

I think the term is now used pejoratively on a subject that one side or the other can't or doesn't want to fight on the merits and so tries to minimize or delegitimize the arguments of the other side.

Brad, have to agree we can have strong opinions on social issues.

The "war" part comes into play in the way we discuss these issues. It is the name calling, glittering generalities, card stacking, stereotyping, lying, fear mongering, etc. which are all part of the techniques of propaganda which takes us into the danger zone.
 
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