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Follow the $cience...

When you throw that 'Conspiracy Theory' crap against the wall, it doesn't stick.
The funding paths are clear.
The scam has been outed.
Lord this is crazy.

Big Pharma wasn't paying to run a clinical trial on Ivermectin. Academics convinced the NIH and specifically the NAIDA to work with the FDA and have taxpayer-funded trials for repurposing several drugs, including chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and a few others.

Those trials failed. REPEATEDLY. The money was wasted. Nobody in big Pharma or in your favorite University killed anything. A lack of beneficial effect killed most everything.

One lesson learned is that drug repurposing doesn't usually work all that well. You have to be incredibly lucky that something previously and fully optimized for one thing is just fine for something totally different. Then you also have to worry about what it already does well messing up the new effect.

It's like you want to find a boat, so you try 100 different cars to see if any of them float.

Sure, Viagra was developed to lower blood pressure and instead gives you great boners. But the two are related. Viagra increases blood flow, but just not all over.
 
Lord this is crazy.

Big Pharma wasn't paying to run a clinical trial on Ivermectin. Academics convinced the NIH and specifically the NAIDA to work with the FDA and have taxpayer-funded trials for repurposing several drugs, including chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and a few others.

Those trials failed. REPEATEDLY. The money was wasted. Nobody in big Pharma or in your favorite University killed anything. A lack of beneficial effect killed most everything.

One lesson learned is that drug repurposing doesn't usually work all that well. You have to be incredibly lucky that something previously and fully optimized for one thing is just fine for something totally different. Then you also have to worry about what it already does well messing up the new effect.

It's like you want to find a boat, so you try 100 different cars to see if any of them float.

Sure, Viagra was developed to lower blood pressure and instead gives you great boners. But the two are related. Viagra increases blood flow, but just not all over.
Wait…. My BP drug can give me a boner?
 
So basically the same mantra for any subject matter:

1. Rigged studies;
2. Hucksters;
3. faux counter factual.

So if I was to ask you the question of "tell me what is empirically or substantively wrong with say this study, your answer would be "I don't know, but I just know it is rigged and I know they are hucksters".

It is one thing to suffer from myopia. It is another thing to suffer from willful ignorance.
I have a new law we should pass. Those who believe in scientific medicine get medicines from pharma, vaccinations, and operations from our insurance. Those that do not, get herbs, crystals, acupuncture, and faith healing. In a generation, we should have a good idea of how well Western medicine works.

There were people who protested the polio vaccine. Fortunately, so many Americans were so scared of polio, the naysayers gained little ground. Today, the naysayers would win. Same for smallpox. In 1879 an anti-vaccination group started to protest the smallpox vaccine. How many of us would be dead if there had never been a smallpox vaccine? How many of us would have polio?
 
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I have a new law we should pass. Those who believe in scientific medicine get medicines from pharma, vaccinations, and operations from our insurance. Those that do not, get herbs, crystals, acupuncture, and faith healing. In a generation, we should have a good idea of how well Western medicine works.

There were people who protested the polio vaccine. Fortunately, so many Americans were so scared of polio, the naysayers gained little ground. Today, the naysayers would win. Same for smallpox. In 1879 an anti-vaccination group started to protest the smallpox vaccine. How many of us would be dead if there had never been a smallpox vaccine? How many of us would have polio?
3/10 people with smallpox died.

Polio 5-15%. Far more forever paralyzed.

You don’t need to sell a vaccine with death and injury rates like that. You also don’t need to sell lockdowns or social distancing.

Humans, miraculously enough, respond to their environment and make risk reward calculations all on their own. They don’t need to be force fed what to do by an allegedly benevolent government apparatus.

If Covid was a big enough deal that vaccine, social distancing and lockdown mandates were actually warranted, there wouldn’t have been so much backlash.

But it wasn’t. Hence the backlash.
 
Wait…. My BP drug can give me a boner?
Maybe. Not all of them have that effect.

Viagra (sildenafil) was supposed to be a blood pressure drug, blocking enzymes called phosphodiesterases (PDEs), which constrict your blood vessels So... blocking them ought to increase blood flow and lower BP.

But it turns out that Viagra blocks one particular form of PDE called PDE5 that seems to be very prevalent in the boner area and not so abundant elsewhere. So you get blood to the boner without much effect on your overall BP

Your BP drug probably promotes vasodilation everywhere. So I wouldn't be surprised if it has some positive effect on boner development. Just not as specific as Viagra, Levitra, and Cialis are.
 
3/10 people with smallpox died.

Polio 5-15%. Far more forever paralyzed.

You don’t need to sell a vaccine with death and injury rates like that. You also don’t need to sell lockdowns or social distancing.

Humans, miraculously enough, respond to their environment and make risk reward calculations all on their own. They don’t need to be force fed what to do by an allegedly benevolent government apparatus.

If Covid was a big enough deal that vaccine, social distancing and lockdown mandates were actually warranted, there wouldn’t have been so much backlash.

But it wasn’t. Hence the backlash.
Spring 2020 in Maryland is the only time in my 65 years on this earth I've worried about getting access to care if I got sick. Healthy people were dead in 10 days and hospitals were full. But you're right, my 20- something son in West Virginia wasn't too worried.

We weren't smart about matching policies with level of risk by geography, but there was also different attitudes depending on age. That latter point isn't actually too surprising in our culture.
 
No, but they should go back to vaccines. You know - vaccines? mRNA is NOT, in any sense of the word, a vaccine.

Please educate yourself.
I'm really puzzled by the level of stupidity here. I will let someone who has actual knowledge of the process, but my understanding vaccines use mRNA to teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. A traditional vaccine, say for example, polio, two types of vaccine by introducing a neutralized disease, that causes the body to produce antibodies to attack the polio disease and prevent, for example, polio. The concept between the two similar but different. mRNA teach your cells how to make a small, harmless piece of the virus to trigger an immune response inside our bodies.

So yes, it is a vaccine by any definition.
 
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None of the dead ones.
How many non-lab rats died?
How many athletes have flat dropped dead from Vax-caused cardiovascular injury?
Why was the AstraZeneca mRNA vaccination withdrawn from the market?
Why is the insurance industry reporting significant excess death numbers among Vax and boosted policy holders?
Why does the US government continue to lie about funding gain of function research?
 
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How many non-lab rats died?
How many athletes have flat dropped dead from Vax-caused cardiovascular injury?
Why was the AstraZeneca mRNA vaccination withdrawn from the market?
Why is the insurance industry reporting significant excess death numbers among Vax and boosted policy holders?
Why does the US government continue to lie about funding gain of function research?
Are you talking about the Sputnik vaccine, that even Putin didn't trust?
 
3/10 people with smallpox died.

Polio 5-15%. Far more forever paralyzed.

You don’t need to sell a vaccine with death and injury rates like that. You also don’t need to sell lockdowns or social distancing.

Humans, miraculously enough, respond to their environment and make risk reward calculations all on their own. They don’t need to be force fed what to do by an allegedly benevolent government apparatus.

If Covid was a big enough deal that vaccine, social distancing and lockdown mandates were actually warranted, there wouldn’t have been so much backlash.

But it wasn’t. Hence the backlash.
There was no consideration, at all, for the significant social damages caused by the arbitrarily conceived isolation rules, masking, six-foot spacing rules, taking kids out of schools, etc.
 
3/10 people with smallpox died.

Polio 5-15%. Far more forever paralyzed.

You don’t need to sell a vaccine with death and injury rates like that. You also don’t need to sell lockdowns or social distancing.

Humans, miraculously enough, respond to their environment and make risk reward calculations all on their own. They don’t need to be force fed what to do by an allegedly benevolent government apparatus.

If Covid was a big enough deal that vaccine, social distancing and lockdown mandates were actually warranted, there wouldn’t have been so much backlash.

But it wasn’t. Hence the backlash.
We were facing an unknown enemy. Early hospitalization rates were very high. You can see the info below on excess deaths, the week ending April 4 we had 15,000 more deaths than a "normal" year. COVID was still new.

ICUs filled up entirely. We don't build hospitals so everyone can be in at the same time, and ICUs are even far fewer. That contributed to deaths, see below, and contributed to huge burnout from doctors and nurses which just makes the problem worse.


We didn't know what worked. In the vast majority of cases, someone comes in and they can't breathe, they go onto a ventilator. It wasn't until those people started dying that we realized that made was worse for COVID patients. But there was no way of knowing that out of the gate.

I'll agree if people suggest some places were too slow to come out of lockdown. I think that is accurate. But we just didn't know in March-June. Were we facing the Andromeda Strain scenario, or just a quick hit of a bad flu? There was no good data to rely on. But for most of 2020, hospitals were near capacity and that became a problem. In the Bloomington area, Monroe and Lawrence County hospitals were completely full meaning people with other emergencies had to be sent to an Indianapolis, Louisville, or who knows where. That happened in many parts of the country. Suddenly very survivable car crashes and other injuries were much more dangerous.

We made mistakes, that almost always happens fighting a new enemy (see US Army and Kasserine Pass as an example).

But there are still studies happening on the vaccines, and we still don't see the big risk that others report we have. The risk of heart issues after a vaccine IS higher than without. But it was less than having COVID without a vaccine.



  • A positive SARS-CoV-2 test was associated with increased cardiac and all-cause mortality among people; the risk was higher in those who were unvaccinated at time of testing than in those who were vaccinated.

From that, there was more of a risk for the old school vaccine than the newer mRNA:

There was evidence of an increase in cardiac death in young women after a first dose of non-mRNA vaccines, with the risk being 3.5 times higher in the 12 weeks following vaccination, compared with the longer-term risk.​

When it comes to "public health" this is all tricky. When does your right not to not be vaccinated create a public danger. A great example is smallpox. While you may decide you will risk it, your getting smallpox endangers everyone who is immuno-compromised and cannot get the vaccine. So there is an open question. It is somewhat true for COVID, I know a woman that died of COVID last December while undergoing chemotherapy. Her immune system was badly damaged so it couldn't fight COVID. This is even though she had been earlier vaccinated.

It isn't just COVID, vaccine rates have been dropping since long before COVID.

An interesting story on smallpox. The UN sent troops to India to vaccinate the population because large sections of India were balking. They quite literally rounded up people at gunpoint. Pre-covid CNN did a story on this and interviewed someone who commanded one of the units. I don't know that there was a "right" answer. The world is far better off having smallpox eradicated, I think we all agree. But forcing people literally at gunpoint? That's tough.
 
Maybe. Not all of them have that effect.

Viagra (sildenafil) was supposed to be a blood pressure drug, blocking enzymes called phosphodiesterases (PDEs), which constrict your blood vessels So... blocking them ought to increase blood flow and lower BP.

But it turns out that Viagra blocks one particular form of PDE called PDE5 that seems to be very prevalent in the boner area and not so abundant elsewhere. So you get blood to the boner without much effect on your overall BP

Your BP drug probably promotes vasodilation everywhere. So I wouldn't be surprised if it has some positive effect on boner development. Just not as specific as Viagra, Levitra, and Cialis are.
JK. I am one of these evil prescribers who is a shill for big pharma and am driving a new Moderna sponsored Mercedes
 
I'm really puzzled by the level of stupidity here. I will let someone who has actual knowledge of the process, but my understanding vaccines use mRNA to teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. A traditional vaccine, say for example, polio, two types of vaccine by introducing a neutralized disease, that causes the body to produce antibodies to attack the polio disease and prevent, for example, polio. The concept between the two similar but different. mRNA teach your cells how to make a small, harmless piece of the virus to trigger an immune response inside our bodies.

So yes, it is a vaccine by any definition.
Thank you!

This has been explained many times, but it doesn't sink in, somehow.

Traditional antiviral vaccines contain a viral protein that must be made on a commercial scale, stabilized, formulated, and then injected. Your body's immune system recognizes the protein as a foreign species and creates antibodies to destroy it, wherever it exists. Since that injected protein is part of the virus, that means your immune system will fight the natural infection, since infection leads to exposure to the viral protein.

Now... What is mRNA? It is a biological molecule that is essentially the recipe / instruction manual for your own cells to make a protein. The exact protein to be made is specified by the sequence of RNA bases.

So...

One need not make the viral protein to get an effective vaccine. One needs only make the right sequence of RNA bases to instruct your body to make the same protein that would have been present in the traditional virus. Ultimately the same protein is made and even though your body made it, your immune system recognizes the protein as a foreign species and creates antibodies to destroy it, wherever it exists.

So it's the same damn thing, but simpler.

It's hard to make proteins, It's easy and fast to make mRNA. The holdup was how to formulate the mRNA so it has a shelf life. That problem was solved, and to a first approximation every snippet of mRNA can be stabilized in the same way, unlike proteins.

So, it's very much plug-n-play.

You have a vaccine but need to change it to elicit a response to a different protein? Just change the mRNA snippet you include. Keep everything else exactly the same. Same ingredients, same cold chain, same manufacturing process. Huge advantages.
 
Thank you!

This has been explained many times, but it doesn't sink in, somehow.

Traditional antiviral vaccines contain a viral protein that must be made on a commercial scale, stabilized, formulated, and then injected. Your body's immune system recognizes the protein as a foreign species and creates antibodies to destroy it, wherever it exists. Since that injected protein is part of the virus, that means your immune system will fight the natural infection, since infection leads to exposure to the viral protein.

Now... What is mRNA? It is a biological molecule that is essentially the recipe / instruction manual for your own cells to make a protein. The exact protein to be made is specified by the sequence of RNA bases.

So...

One need not make the viral protein to get an effective vaccine. One needs only make the right sequence of RNA bases to instruct your body to make the same protein that would have been present in the traditional virus. Ultimately the same protein is made and even though your body made it, your immune system recognizes the protein as a foreign species and creates antibodies to destroy it, wherever it exists.

So it's the same damn thing, but simpler.

It's hard to make proteins, It's easy and fast to make mRNA. The holdup was how to formulate the mRNA so it has a shelf life. That problem was solved, and to a first approximation every snippet of mRNA can be stabilized in the same way, unlike proteins.

So, it's very much plug-n-play.

You have a vaccine but need to change it to elicit a response to a different protein? Just change the mRNA snippet you include. Keep everything else exactly the same. Same ingredients, same cold chain, same manufacturing process. Huge advantages.
There you go.

mRNA is easier than reading Moby Dick. @BradStevens
 
My son works in government. He resisted the vaccine until the bloody end. I pushed him to comply. He took the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. After beating Covid all those many months he got Covid within 10 days of the shot. Today I was just speaking to him on the phone. He’s had a cold for three days. He bitched he used to never get sick now he gets colds far to often.
 
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You all really need to take off the lenses and look at what is happening, per top immunologists and recent studies from around the world.

There is a serious concern with IGG4 antibodies present in those especially after several vaccine injections.






I recommend following Dr Raszek, no he is not an anti-vaxxer, he only does research and cites studies taking place on the subject.
 
I was just speaking to him on the phone. He’s had a cold for three days. He bitched he used to never get sick now he gets colds far to often.
I used to get colds all the time. Then my house's three virus incubation factories grew up and went off to college, so I never catch anything.
 
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I have a new law we should pass. Those who believe in scientific medicine get medicines from pharma, vaccinations, and operations from our insurance. Those that do not, get herbs, crystals, acupuncture, and faith healing. In a generation, we should have a good idea of how well Western medicine works.

There were people who protested the polio vaccine. Fortunately, so many Americans were so scared of polio, the naysayers gained little ground. Today, the naysayers would win. Same for smallpox. In 1879 an anti-vaccination group started to protest the smallpox vaccine. How many of us would be dead if there had never been a smallpox vaccine? How many of us would have polio?
We already have a good idea how well Western medicine works.

It’s backed up by a lot of science.

There you go.

mRNA is easier than reading Moby Dick. @BradStevens
The whiteness of mRNA . . .
 
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Spring 2020 in Maryland is the only time in my 65 years on this earth I've worried about getting access to care if I got sick.

. Early hospitalization rates were very high. You can see the info below on excess deaths, the week ending April 4 we had 15,000 more deaths than a "normal" year. COVID was still new.

ICUs filled up entirely. We don't build hospitals so everyone can be in at the same time, and ICUs are even far fewer. That contributed to deaths, see below, and contributed to huge burnout from doctors and nurses which just makes the problem worse.

I find this line of argumentation fairly irksome. First of all, it relies on an "if, then" statement that I don't agree with.

"If ICU bed availability is at or over capacity in a certain area, then social distancing and lockdowns enforced via the barrel of a gun are warranted"

Bullshit. Erect field hospitals if need be. Or sail a giant hospital ship down the Hudson that goes completely unused.

Secondly, it presupposes that lock downs and arbitrary social distancing guidelines had any real effect on transmission. Something that has not been proven.

Third and probably most irksome. The ICU bed shortage claims were routinely exaggerated throughout the pandemic for dramatic effect.

Lastly, it never accounts for poor health and learning outcomes resulting from lockdowns and social distancing.

Marv's point that we were fighting an unknown enemy has some merit. In the face of an unknown enemy of unknown seriousness, the first instinct for many was to go full authoritarian. Remove civil liberties, right to work and freedom of movement. And many gladly supported the governments doing so.

That can never be forgiven and gallows wont be enough for those who did that to our country.
 
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Yet vast numbers do not believe it. I heard a great quote years ago, "Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine."
That's true. I think it was poorly communicated throughout (oversimplifications, intentional lies, lack of transparency, lack of teaching about probabilities vs. certainties, overselling what was known and unknown, etc.) that demonstrated a lack of trust in the populace. Maybe that lack of trust was right, but I never liked it. Democracy has its weaknesses.

It was also politicized from the very beginning, which created tribal responses. And the Dems were just as, if not more, guilty of that as the Repubs.
 
I am not the one advocating using the coercive power of government against those I disagree with. That’s truly how a Republic dies.
Then what are you advocating? The coercive power of the mob? Whoever wields the power, people who walk around justifying the use of capital punishment against the political opposition will always be more dangerous than a bunch of bureaucrats.
 
Then what are you advocating? The coercive power of the mob? Whoever wields the power, people who walk around justifying the use of capital punishment against the political opposition will always be more dangerous than a bunch of bureaucrats.
I read him as using hyperbole to point out how much he disagreed with those actions.
 
I find this line of argumentation fairly irksome. First of all, it relies on an "if, then" statement that I don't agree with.

"If ICU bed availability is at or over capacity in a certain area, then social distancing and lockdowns enforced via the barrel of a gun are warranted"

Bullshit. Erect field hospitals if need be. Or sail a giant hospital ship down the Hudson that goes completely unused.

Secondly, it presupposes that lock downs and arbitrary social distancing guidelines had any real effect on transmission. Something that has not been proven.

Third and probably most irksome. The ICU bed shortage claims were routinely exaggerated throughout the pandemic for dramatic effect.

Lastly, it never accounts for poor health and learning outcomes resulting from lockdowns and social distancing.

Marv's point that we were fighting an unknown enemy has some merit. In the face of an unknown enemy of unknown seriousness, the first instinct for many was to go full authoritarian. Remove civil liberties, right to work and freedom of movement. And many gladly supported the governments doing so.

That can never be forgiven and gallows wont be enough for those who did that to our country.
I don't know if the ICU capacity was exaggerated. My county provided the data and I never heard claims of inaccuracy.

We did have legal restrictions on being outside your home at one point very early on. It wasn't enforced.

There were temporary field hospitals established. Not a preferred choice in a life-threatening situation, though, right?

Seems self evident that isolation and lockdowns can limit the spread of an infectious disease in an emergency situation. What am I missing?
 
I don't know if the ICU capacity was exaggerated. My county provided the data and I never heard claims of inaccuracy.

We did have legal restrictions on being outside your home at one point very early on. It wasn't enforced.

There were temporary field hospitals established. Not a preferred choice in a life-threatening situation, though, right?

Seems self evident that isolation and lockdowns can limit the spread of an infectious disease in an emergency situation. What am I missing?
The broader societal concerns. The fear mongering. The icu has four vacancies and five Covid patients for a community of 250,000 with the narrative hospitals are overwhelmed we need to keep kids home.

Vaccine. Real deal helped but overstated for spread
Covid. Real deal depending on age and pre-existing
Virtue signaling and politics - heavy
 
Then what are you advocating? The coercive power of the mob? Whoever wields the power, people who walk around justifying the use of capital punishment against the political opposition will always be more dangerous than a bunch of bureaucrats.
I am very libertarian. I’m all for allowing the anti vaxxers to have at it. COVID vaccine was initially highly effective. I am not basing that on data. I’m basing it on what I saw on the front lines. Now COVID is a great big nothing so meh…. The real problem is that the imbeciles have decided they’re against all vaccines now and I can’t wait for a measles epidemic to sweep the country because of ignorance
 
I don't know if the ICU capacity was exaggerated. My county provided the data and I never heard claims of inaccuracy.

We did have legal restrictions on being outside your home at one point very early on. It wasn't enforced.

There were temporary field hospitals established. Not a preferred choice in a life-threatening situation, though, right?

Seems self evident that isolation and lockdowns can limit the spread of an infectious disease in an emergency situation. What am I missing?
That there is a cost to the isolation and lockdowns, just like every action. And that cost might not be worth it. In my mind, it clearly was not worth it when it came to closing schools, for example.
 
That there is a cost to the isolation and lockdowns, just like every action. And that cost might not be worth it. In my mind, it clearly was not worth it when it came to closing schools, for example.
100% agreed. The problem is once everyone realized that was stupid (pretty quick in 2020) those in power refused to admit it was stupid
 
That there is a cost to the isolation and lockdowns, just like every action. And that cost might not be worth it. In my mind, it clearly was not worth it when it came to closing schools, for example.
Of course there's a cost. So are isolation and school closures off the table for the next pandemic? Not sure we clearly learned much at all in terms of policy responses due to the unwillingness to rationally consider what worked and what didn't.
 
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