A
Fathers
- Thread starter CO. Hoosier
- Start date
So let us investigate why men can get good jobs that do not require a degree and women cannot. Isn't that a valid way of looking at your first sentence? My wife likes cooking competition shows, females often complain it is harder for women to become a head chef than men. It appears almost no women weld:
Female welders torch glass ceiling in male-dominated field
“My family doesn’t understand it,” Teia Leonard said. “I’m the only woman welder they’ve ever seen.”
www.google.com
So maybe these jobs are not opening up to women? Here is a story on how hard it is for women to enter truck driving:
Despite Record Number On The Road, Women Truck Drivers Still Face Barriers Getting Into Industry
Experts say trucking can lift women out of poverty, but barriers like lack of access to child care keep them out.
www.google.com
As to suicide, men are just better at it because men are more likely to use guns. More women try to commit suicide then men.
Women also are even more likely than men to attempt suicide. In the US for example, adult women in the US reported a suicide attempt 1.2 times as often as men.
Why more men than women die by suicide
In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?
www.bbc.com
As to addiction, you will love reason #2 at the site below. Yes, toxic masculinity. Men will consume more as peer pressure to prove they can consume more. I think we see this on college campuses more with men than women, though women do it.
What Makes Men Vulnerable to Addiction?
Gender-based expectations for what constitutes "masculine" behavior can put men at an added risk of drug or alcohol abuse.
waypointrecoverycenter.com
men are prone to riskier behavior and more physical jobs. Those are biological facts that might make you uncomfortable. Lol
It’s pretty clear women proved to better academic achievers once opportunities became available. Anyone who went to college after the 80s saw the trend. Or are you saying testing is generally gender-biased?
I’m also pro-family but I think your focusing too much on the culture war fluff. That shit confuses and exhausts me too. Women should have more seats at the table even if the male brand has to take just a few undeserved hits.
If you believe that society is about hierarchy (and of course you're always at the top of that hierarchy...funny how that coincides) then yeah, I can see why you would think that.
Which is a key core difference between a liberal and a conservative in my opinion.
A conservative tends to believe in the hierarchy. Which is why it's dominated by white males because, yeah the white male is at the top of near the top of the hierarchy (some conservatives would put this thing called God at the top, then the white male, then what...the son, then some order of minorities, women, etc).
Liberals for the most part don't believe that society is a hierarchy. It's a starting line. People are just people so work with them like they are just people.
When I've been in conversations like this, this point of view tends to make more sense.
So when someone complains that 'fatherhood' is being diminished....my first reaction was 'that's a dumb statement'. As Oval said, who is pushing for a fatherless society?
I believe his point is the man as the unadulterated king, head of the household, top of the hierarchy is being challenged and threatened.
So if you believe in the power of this social hierarchy (which dominates conservative thinking) then....we'll, I can see why you think we should be concerned.
Lincoln said 'the best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother'. That's similar to what you said.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, 1 million percent. Children form their opinions on relationships through their parents.
Liberals are all about a loving, nurturing home. That's not debatable.
Fatherless families are not because of liberal thinking. It's not because the mother is denying the father. That's silly.
I believe fatherless homes are mainly because those males don't want to deal with being a father. It's way more fun chasing skirts then dedicating your life to the kids you fathered. That's a woman's problem right? That's not the job of the king. It's beneath him.
There's the main problem.
I would also like to know how many of these fatherless black families are because they are in jail for minor dope possession. Talk about ripping a family apart.
That's if you want to seriously talk about the things that cause father's to go missing.
'Aggressive feminism' doesn't even register on that list.
Which is a key core difference between a liberal and a conservative in my opinion.
A conservative tends to believe in the hierarchy. Which is why it's dominated by white males because, yeah the white male is at the top of near the top of the hierarchy (some conservatives would put this thing called God at the top, then the white male, then what...the son, then some order of minorities, women, etc).
Liberals for the most part don't believe that society is a hierarchy. It's a starting line. People are just people so work with them like they are just people.
When I've been in conversations like this, this point of view tends to make more sense.
So when someone complains that 'fatherhood' is being diminished....my first reaction was 'that's a dumb statement'. As Oval said, who is pushing for a fatherless society?
I believe his point is the man as the unadulterated king, head of the household, top of the hierarchy is being challenged and threatened.
So if you believe in the power of this social hierarchy (which dominates conservative thinking) then....we'll, I can see why you think we should be concerned.
Lincoln said 'the best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother'. That's similar to what you said.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, 1 million percent. Children form their opinions on relationships through their parents.
Liberals are all about a loving, nurturing home. That's not debatable.
Fatherless families are not because of liberal thinking. It's not because the mother is denying the father. That's silly.
I believe fatherless homes are mainly because those males don't want to deal with being a father. It's way more fun chasing skirts then dedicating your life to the kids you fathered. That's a woman's problem right? That's not the job of the king. It's beneath him.
There's the main problem.
I would also like to know how many of these fatherless black families are because they are in jail for minor dope possession. Talk about ripping a family apart.
That's if you want to seriously talk about the things that cause father's to go missing.
'Aggressive feminism' doesn't even register on that list.
Gender Dysphoria is the stress someone goes through for their sex not matching their gender. It is NOT being trans itself, which is what COH implies.
Let’s say you were like the kids in the Blue Lagoon or Tarzan or something. You’d have no chance of having gender dysphoria because you’d have no preconceived notions about what you’re “supposed” to do.
As for fatherhood, you’ve described a functionally stable two parent household. There isn’t anything inherent with a father being the tough one though. There are plenty of dads whose daughters walk over them and mom has to keep it all in check.
Gender dysphoria, trans…. Whatever one wants to call it…. Don’t care. It bothers me that it’s lumped in with being gay. You’re either born with male parts…. Or female parts…. Period. Religion, biology…. All point to the same. MALE AND FEMALE Pretty damned simple
My point exactly. Men are more prone to behavior that women don’t approve of. So how does that disapproval manifest itself? Who gets to make the disapproval judgments? I don’t have the time or interest to get into this very deep right now. Suffice it to say that men simply no longer fit in to many environments they used to. . This results in the social maladies we see populated by men. This all starts in elementary school. . Little boys get stifled and are held to little girl standards. African American boys get screwed the worst because they are not in a quality educational environment to start. Elementary school never was a place where men worked, but at least many had the male principal or counselor for boys to relate to. Not so much any more.
All of this affects families and fathers. It’s getting worse. The results are whacked out boys in gangs, on drugs, in jail, shooting each other or dead.
But let’s ignore what is plain to see. Rainbow flags make us feel better.
And yes, I’m focusing on “ the culture war stuff”. Culture is important and ours is under strain if not beyond repair.
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Little boys have politicians, still MANY more men then women; Athletes, far more men's sports are shown and MMA is huge. CEOs, considerably more men. Military, more men in top leadership. History, literally his story with the fake Betsy Ross story added to show women can contribute by sewing.
As to the story about why men get addictions, I reject the notion that to be masculine one must partake in crazy drinking games. The type that cause fraternities to find pledges dead. I am sad you seem to believe that is normal masculinity and that is the problem.
Culture changes, it does. Go read a book on the 1500s, what we had in 1970 wasn't close. The reason, culture changes. I am sure people sat around when dueling was outlawed bemoaning the death of masculinity. Or when most stopped hunting for their food. Do you want to bring back dueling, close down meat packing plants and require men to hunt for food? Should we require bullying in school?
In Washington's time people like him had, had, to learn etiquette. They had, had, to learn formal dance. He had, had, to communicate in very submissive tones (your obedient servant, would you close a letter like that). It appears this war on masculinity stretches way back.
Men can still hunt and fish, can play football or fight MMA, can work construction. They can live off the grid in a cabin and live only on what they catch, there are several tv shows on families doing just that. They can drink to excess, there are few laws preventing that. They can channel it other ways and become a mountain climber, or work on fishing boats or oil wells. All are still very masculine jobs.
Or they can post on incel boards that they should have the right to take whatever woman they want. Something you sound perilously close to blaming on women having a choice.
Can we vote on that ? 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
You are begging the question.
In most environments where men and women are together, men get the shaft. Men can fix this by working construction or doing manly things away from women, , but that doesn’t address the problem. Whenever we see an objection to the pronoun bullshit, it’s a man who is in trouble. Women defend and support it. But there are exceptions. I posted about Jennifer Sey and Gwynne Shotwell. I admire the hell out of both. they are exceptions.
I ask myself, while reading this thread,
Why do I find so much joy in singing a specific Spin Doctors song.
It's been a whole lot easier since...
Why do I find so much joy in singing a specific Spin Doctors song.
It's been a whole lot easier since...
better that way than the other way around. I hate spoiled moochers.
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am curious why you aren't wondering what it was like for generations of little girls to go to school without ever seeing a female principal? were you pushing for more female representation in the 80s?
agree, lots of harmless but typical aggressive male behavior is now frowned upon. that should be studied, considered, and acted upon. but let's call that a minor cultural overreaction to complete and total male domination.
lol. our culture is not under any more strain than it ever was. we've heard all these songs before. the average family from the 1850s or even the 1910s would look in horror at how your family behaves. Children sharing feelings! Women working, voting, making household decisions! They'd think we are doomed. lololol
Because little girls weren’t uneducated, slaughtering people with semi auto guns, killing each other on the streets, or mugging or sucker punching innocent people while minding their own business. We have a severe young male problem in this country. Rising crime rates, drug OD rates, and general rising violent criminal behavior makes that obvious. The causes are wide and deep as we have discussed. But, the root cause starts with no fathers.
You would be a good politician. 🤣Notice I said "alright", not "good", "great" or "well".
First of all, I found this thread interesting and challenging.
At the onset, I questioned the idea that a prime role of the father is setting an example of being 'masculine" . Next, I didn't buy into the notion that the influence of fathers was diminishing due to a rise of "toxic femininity" .
Finally, I told myself that the effects of a matriarchal family may not be all bad. In looking for material to substantiate this conclusion I came across this article entitled,,,
The article emphasizes the importance of fathers as CoH stressed in starting the thread. However, according to the polling of modern day mothers and fathers, today's fathers even more so than fathers of by gone eras understand how important they are in two parent working families and take their role as father seriously.
A couple of the 10 points in the article are as follows,,,
6. The importance of fathers is understood...by dads.
Dads are much more involved in their kid’s lives than they were 50 years ago. Dads in 2021 are doing triple the amount of child care they provided in 1965.
And dads put in an average of 10 hours a week on household chores in 2016, up from four hours in 1965...a 120% increase in 50 years.
8. Dads see their identity as a parent as fundamental...as do moms.
Cultural norms may tell us that moms would see the role as parent as more vital to their identity than dad does.
Not true.
In a 2015 study, 58% of mothers and 57% of fathers described their role as parents as a core aspect of their identity.
At the onset, I questioned the idea that a prime role of the father is setting an example of being 'masculine" . Next, I didn't buy into the notion that the influence of fathers was diminishing due to a rise of "toxic femininity" .
Finally, I told myself that the effects of a matriarchal family may not be all bad. In looking for material to substantiate this conclusion I came across this article entitled,,,
The Importance of Fathers; 10 Amazing Research Findings and Their Modern Relevance
The article emphasizes the importance of fathers as CoH stressed in starting the thread. However, according to the polling of modern day mothers and fathers, today's fathers even more so than fathers of by gone eras understand how important they are in two parent working families and take their role as father seriously.
A couple of the 10 points in the article are as follows,,,
6. The importance of fathers is understood...by dads.
Dads are much more involved in their kid’s lives than they were 50 years ago. Dads in 2021 are doing triple the amount of child care they provided in 1965.
And dads put in an average of 10 hours a week on household chores in 2016, up from four hours in 1965...a 120% increase in 50 years.
8. Dads see their identity as a parent as fundamental...as do moms.
Cultural norms may tell us that moms would see the role as parent as more vital to their identity than dad does.
Not true.
In a 2015 study, 58% of mothers and 57% of fathers described their role as parents as a core aspect of their identity.
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nah — lack of wealth is the root cause. The kids of married and partnered women are statistically doing better than their peers in school because their parents have more education and more money. The state of the family partnership unit is what is important, not the exact configuration of that family.
Poor young men are not killing each other and ODing because Pride Month has stolen healthy outlets for masculine expression . Lol. No disrespect but what an odd read. Violent crime in inner cities spiked way before Pride went mainstream. You get that, right? And way before education was “monopolized” by women.
again, I’m for supporting family units and for letting boys do boy things but your premise is pretty shaky man.
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Lizzie Borden had an axe
Gave her mother 40 whacks
When she saw what she had done
Gave her father 41
What do you mean men get the shaft, men still make more money than women. Both genders work but women are expected to do more housework:
Women do 2 more hours of housework daily than men, study says
Keeping a house tidy is a time-consuming endeavor. Is there a way to make sure the load is more balanced?
www.today.com
Men largely fall afoul of pronoun issues by belittling it. I have screwed up pronouns, said "oh, sorry, I will try to do better" and moved on with no problem. Saying, "who the hell cares" isn't a great answer.
Men entirely ran the world for thousands of years. And now you cry because men are asked to share power. Seriously the story of someone with an over privileged life. Men still have the power. Which gender makes more overall? In athletics? Which has more CEOs? More generals? How many female presidents and vice presidents have we had? The wealthiest 100 Americans tend to be which gender? Many Americans are Catholic, the Pope is which gender? More federal judges are men, more Supreme Court justices, more Senators, congressmen, governors. Has there ever been a time that more women then men sat on the Supreme Court? Federal courts? Governorships, senate, Congress? It has never happened. The laws are written by men, interpreted by men, business is run by men, and the military is run by men. And you have the balls to cry that men are so far behind women.
So what you're saying is that the halls of power are dominated by a............man-opoly?What do you mean men get the shaft, men still make more money than women. Both genders work but women are expected to do more housework:
Women do 2 more hours of housework daily than men, study says
Keeping a house tidy is a time-consuming endeavor. Is there a way to make sure the load is more balanced?
Men largely fall afoul of pronoun issues by belittling it. I have screwed up pronouns, said "oh, sorry, I will try to do better" and moved on with no problem. Saying, "who the hell cares" isn't a great answer.
Men entirely ran the world for thousands of years. And now you cry because men are asked to share power. Seriously the story of someone with an over privileged life. Men still have the power. Which gender makes more overall? In athletics? Which has more CEOs? More generals? How many female presidents and vice presidents have we had? The wealthiest 100 Americans tend to be which gender? Many Americans are Catholic, the Pope is which gender? More federal judges are men, more Supreme Court justices, more Senators, congressmen, governors. Has there ever been a time that more women then men sat on the Supreme Court? Federal courts? Governorships, senate, Congress? It has never happened. The laws are written by men, interpreted by men, business is run by men, and the military is run by men. And you have the balls to cry that men are so far behind women.
Nothing says Father's Day like puns. I'll see myself out.
The proof's in the pudding. The Libs have been in charge, for the most part, the last 35-40 years. And the results are horrible. All we get is more of their bs in response. As you can see from this thread.
Libs are In charge of what ?
Aren't local and state governments responsible for crime and education with Libs controlling some and conservatives controlling others ? Certainly no political entity is in charge of church and family along with the workplace which comes closer to what this thread is about.
Seventy five members representing four generations of my family had a reunion last year. We don't share the same political outlook, but each generation and family within the family seems to be improving by any measurement of progress. I give credit to both the Dads and Moms for sharing priorities and working together with raising the children being their prime focus.
Nope, it actually explains why libs and pubs react the way that they do to most things.
Pubs believe in a hierarchy/pyramid.
Libs believe in a flat line.
Which is why overall culture war BS works on pubs well while woke BS works on libs.
Religion is most definitely a hierarchy/pyramid. There's God then some sort of order which = strong society. A strong husband at the head, a loving wife, the children, etc.
COH's argument is basically this hierarchy is being threatened, which I would agree with him.
The difference is I think it's a good thing. I think he's absolutely wrong that because libs don't believe in this antiquated patriarchal rules that means they want to eliminate the father's role.
That's complete nonsense.
I am a man that includes my wife in decisions and half the time or more we go with her decisions. I also want to point out my wife didn't abuse our kids, it was from the way she grew up and getting slapped or belted. Many very religious Christians take the "spare rod spoil the child" as beating the child while I see the "rod" as a measure and making children live up to family rules.
There are still people who believe the man makes all decisions. There are still people who refuse to accept women as leaders. Teaching it is the man's job to lead and the woman's job to follow is toxic" - this idea denies the talent of many women. Saying men can do all jobs or women can do anything a man can isn't right either.
"Yes, it happens the other way but not as often" more than ever gets reported but happens often.
What do you mean men get the shaft, men still make more money than women. Both genders work but women are expected to do more housework:
Women do 2 more hours of housework daily than men, study says
Keeping a house tidy is a time-consuming endeavor. Is there a way to make sure the load is more balanced?
Men largely fall afoul of pronoun issues by belittling it. I have screwed up pronouns, said "oh, sorry, I will try to do better" and moved on with no problem. Saying, "who the hell cares" isn't a great answer.
Men entirely ran the world for thousands of years. And now you cry because men are asked to share power. Seriously the story of someone with an over privileged life. Men still have the power. Which gender makes more overall? In athletics? Which has more CEOs? More generals? How many female presidents and vice presidents have we had? The wealthiest 100 Americans tend to be which gender? Many Americans are Catholic, the Pope is which gender? More federal judges are men, more Supreme Court justices, more Senators, congressmen, governors. Has there ever been a time that more women then men sat on the Supreme Court? Federal courts? Governorships, senate, Congress? It has never happened. The laws are written by men, interpreted by men, business is run by men, and the military is run by men. And you have the balls to cry that men are so far behind women.
We are not very good at maintaining a proper peacetime military.
Lack of fathers begets poverty.
I never said there was a cause and effect relationship between Pride month and lack of involved fathers.
That’s interesting stuff. But polling active and involved fathers doesn’t tell us much about absent and uninvolved fathers.
As far as toxic femininity is concerned, I think that sets the table for a lot of youthful male dysfunction, especially for males who have no dad. As far as adults is concerned, look at the cities with female mayors and or female prosecutors. Their brand of public policy is indeed toxic.
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I always knew the Great Depression was a myth.
Because there is no way that there was that much poverty when only 9% of families didn't have two parents present.
Well it's the first thing approaching evidence in this thread.
His whole thesis is dumb because he's conflating a stable home life with having a father around.
While fathers can certainly fill that role, so can single fathers, or single mothers, or blended families, or grandparents, or two moms, or two dads.
Among the dumbest human qualities is when people think that complex social problems have exceedingly simple solutions. "Have more dads around" as the solution to what's wrong in America is just such a thing.
I would actually propose that a great number of dads (and moms) have terrible effects on their children. Alcoholism. Drug abuse. Crime. Physical & emotional abuse. These things set kids up to not be fully functioning adults with a father around or a two parent household. What those situations have in common is that they are not stable loving homes. Kids grow when they feel safe. Having "dad" isn't what makes you feel safe. Actually being safe is what makes you feel safe.
So until you or anyone else can point out something that shows that dads are magical in this regard and that doesn't conflate having dad around with stability, you can, respectfully, blow me.
