ADVERTISEMENT

Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good

I'm not asking to be let off the hook. Yeah, maybe there are some occasional strange bedfellows, but by and large a lot of effin' people have fought and been killed over the 'my version of God is more awesome than your version.'

I'm not an atheist or an agnostic, by the way. I'm not advocating for pushing religion to the side. I'm mainly advocating for the human race to grow the eff up and stop perverting the central beliefs of all their religions.

Good you go negotiate with ISIS or HAMAS or any other radical muslim nation. Let me know how that turns out.
 
Hamas, China, Russia, and Iran are "bad" guys. For all the warts of other places, none of us would want a world made in any of their images. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

I live in an area that's surrounded by 200 million Muslims. Because of the regular interactions --whether for work or socially, you see both sides -- especially here in Singapore where social harmony ie between racial and religious groups is legislated. (Restriction of hate speech.)

I am also lucky in that I am stuck in the middle of the Cold War between China and the US. Singapore, being at the southern tip of the Straits of Malacca where 2/3rd of China or Japan's energy passes through; 2nd most busiest port in the world.

Singapore has to take a neutral stance even though its armed to the teeth (an Israeli-developed strategy) with American aircraft (incl the F35s in 2026) and the US being the largest investor here.

But Singapore is also dependent on China, the 2nd largest investor here -- and in some ways, Singapore's survival is dependent on China in the long run.)

So the perspective I get here is pretty objective. Not much confirmation bias here. So I see both sides of the issue.

And it is not like some Hollywood movie where there is a clear demarcation between the good guys and the bad guys. The perception of the 'bad guys' created by the media and politicians is almost cartoonish. (Honestly, the US perception of the rest of the world is so parochial it's shocking. And how do I know this? My siblings.)

The dehumanising of one particular group where one life is lost means less than another is another thing that if you are being honest with yourself is wrong.

Speaking of Hollywood need to go back to the lessons of The Wire.

The good guys are also bad and the bad guys can also be good.

The question isn't determining who the good and who bad ones are; their actions etc since Newton's 3rd law is in play.

The question that needs to be asked -- how did we get there? The history.

If not it's only a pointless but often repeated exercise of virtue signalling here in the WC -- as in the case of the recent conflagrations in the ME.

Otherwise, this constant hatred keeps spiralling -- and any little understanding going forward becomes near impossible.
 
Last edited:
I live in an area that's surrounded by 200 million Muslims. Because of the regular interactions --whether for work or socially, you see both sides -- especially here in Singapore where social harmony ie between racial and religious groups is legislated. (Restriction of hate speech.)

I am also lucky in that I am stuck in the middle of the Cold War between China and the US. Singapore, being at the southern tip of the Straits of Malacca where 2/3rd of China or Japan's energy passes through; 2nd most busiest port in the world.

Singapore has to take a neutral stance even though its armed to the teeth (an Israeli-developed strategy) with American aircraft (incl the F35s in 2026) and the US being the largest investor here.

But Singapore is also dependent on China, the 2nd largest investor here -- and in some ways, Singapore's survival is dependent on China in the long run.)

So the perspective I get here is pretty objective. Not much confirmation bias here. So I see both sides of the issue.

And it is not like some Hollywood movie where there is a clear demarcation between the good guys and the bad guys. The perception of the 'bad guys' created by the media and politicians is almost cartoonish. (Honestly, the US perception of the rest of the world is so parochial it's shocking. And how do I know this? My siblings.)

The dehumanising of one particular group where one life is lost means less than another is another thing that if you are being honest with yourself is wrong.

Speaking of Hollywood need to go back to the lessons of The Wire.

The good guys are also bad and the bad guys can also be good.

The question isn't determining who the good and who bad ones are; their actions etc since Newton's 3rd law is in play.

The question that needs to be asked -- how did we get there? The history.

If not it's only a pointless but often repeated exercise of virtue signalling here in the WC -- as in the case of the recent conflagrations in the ME.

Otherwise, this constant hatred keeps spiralling -- and any little understanding going forward becomes near impossible.
Btw, you’re getting really good at this spying gig. 😊
 
Last edited:
I live in an area that's surrounded by 200 million Muslims. Because of the regular interactions --whether for work or socially, you see both sides -- especially here in Singapore where social harmony ie between racial and religious groups is legislated. (Restriction of hate speech.)

I am also lucky in that I am stuck in the middle of the Cold War between China and the US. Singapore, being at the southern tip of the Straits of Malacca where 2/3rd of China or Japan's energy passes through; 2nd most busiest port in the world.

Singapore has to take a neutral stance even though its armed to the teeth (an Israeli-developed strategy) with American aircraft (incl the F35s in 2026) and the US being the largest investor here.

But Singapore is also dependent on China, the 2nd largest investor here -- and in some ways, Singapore's survival is dependent on China in the long run.)

So the perspective I get here is pretty objective. Not much confirmation bias here. So I see both sides of the issue.

And it is not like some Hollywood movie where there is a clear demarcation between the good guys and the bad guys. The perception of the 'bad guys' created by the media and politicians is almost cartoonish. (Honestly, the US perception of the rest of the world is so parochial it's shocking. And how do I know this? My siblings.)

The dehumanising of one particular group where one life is lost means less than another is another thing that if you are being honest with yourself is wrong.

Speaking of Hollywood need to go back to the lessons of The Wire.

The good guys are also bad and the bad guys can also be good.

The question isn't determining who the good and who bad ones are; their actions etc since Newton's 3rd law is in play.

The question that needs to be asked -- how did we get there? The history.

If not it's only a pointless but often repeated exercise of virtue signalling here in the WC -- as in the case of the recent conflagrations in the ME.

Otherwise, this constant hatred keeps spiralling -- and any little understanding going forward becomes near impossible.

Crazy would make a very shitty diplomat, that's for sure.
 
You really want to put Israel in same basket as Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, Iran and Russia?

It depends who's perspective. Haterd doesn't build up in isolation. Plus those guys think they are equally correct in their cause. Are they evil or they think they are correct and the West are really the evil ones? We are talking hundreds of millions of people if not over a billion.

Like I said in the previous thread, you need to look at the Brits for the problems a century later.


The devil's advocate perspective here is that the US are major hypocrites. No accountability for the Iraqi invasion where a few hundred Iraqis died because of an illegal war? Caging kids by the border facilities to George Floyd... All not good looks.

The billions spent in softpower here has been gradually eroded over the last decade.
 
Last edited:
Btw, you’re getting really good at this spying gig. 😊

May explain why they never offered me citizenship. ( supposed to be the most valuable passport in the world!) Yet my ex was offered! I am sure my passive/aggressive behaviour over that contributed to the demise of the relationship!

The real intelligent discussion here should be people arguing for their opposition views. And not just waving the flag, chest beating or virtue signalling
Like a proper debate
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Morrison
It depends who's perspective. Haterd doesn't build up in isolation. Plus those guys think they are equally correct in their cause. Are they evil or they think they are correct and the West are really the evil ones? We are talking hundreds of millions of people if not over a billion.

Like I said in the previous thread, you need to look at the Brits for the problems a century later.


The devil's advocate perspective here is that the US are major hypocrites. No accountability for the Iraqi invasion where a few hundred Iraqis died because of an illegal war? Caging kids by the border facilities to George Floyd... All not good looks.

The billions spent in softpower here has been gradually eroded over the last decade.

The Iraq War will be a long term stain upon US foreign policy.

The border and George Floyd? GTFO. The cop who killed Floyd is in prison. And the border is still a disaster. Something few other countries on earth would allow to occur. We have ridiculously stupid asylum laws that we can't agree to fix. I'm sure Singapore is not so dumb.
 
Last edited:
The Iraq War will be a long term stain upon US foreign policy.

The border and George Floyd? GTFO. The cop who killed Floyd is in prison. And the border is still a disaster. Something few other countries on earth would allow to occur. We have ridiculously stupid asylum laws that we can't agree to fix. I'm sure Singapore is not so dumb.

Its too hot here. No one will want to be here. ;)

Plus they cant afford to live here. No slums where you can live 12 in a room here. There are over 1.2 million migrant workers (pre-covid numbers) though.

Iraqi war may be a stain on 'domestic' foreign policy. Or the Monroe Doctrine?


But it has damaged the credibility of the US tremendously in the rest of the world. I have had Russians throw that argument at me when discussing Ukraine.

Regarding George Flyod's case, nobody remembers the court case. They do remember the video that was seen across the world and what happened after.
 
Last edited:
No they are impossible crazies. I get what you are saying, but you are not getting though to them.
I agree that there is no getting through to Hamas terrorists. When they're premise is 'death to Jews' there really isn't a seat at the proverbial negotiating table for that.
 
I pretty much agree, but I will say that China's mix of laissez-faire economic approach, massive govt assistance in key parts of the economy, and no political freedom has worked pretty well for them. People pretty easily give up political liberty/freedom of speech for economic security. I think many in the West would also make that trade. Fortunately, their former one-child dictate is going to screw them eventually.
Go outside the major cities in China and it’s a third world hell hole. The current system they have just shows that even some free market principles is light years better than none.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IUCrazy2
But it has damaged the credibility of the US tremendously in the rest of the world. I have had Russians throw that argument at me when discussing Ukraine.
Luckily for us, we had you to set them straight. I’m sure you told them there are no heroes and villains. Thanks Mr. Objective 😉
 
The Iraq War will be a long term stain upon US foreign policy.

The border and George Floyd? GTFO. The cop who killed Floyd is in prison. And the border is still a disaster. Something few other countries on earth would allow to occur. We have ridiculously stupid asylum laws that we can't agree to fix. I'm sure Singapore is not so dumb.

👍 Didn’t you know Singapore is perfect?
 
👍 Didn’t you know Singapore is perfect?
I wouldn’t call it perfect, but it is a right wing conservative state. They’re very strong on law and order (and military). They also have low taxes and a pro business climate.
 
Luckily for us, we had you to set them straight. I’m sure you told them there are no heroes and villains. Thanks Mr. Objective 😉
I am a natural devils advocate. I was obviously defending the states with him. Told him that Russia has to respect other countries' sovereignty and territorial integrity etc. Then he threw me a long list of conflicts and interventions the US has been involved in etc. It was still raw with me -- was like over 17 months ago.

Eventually he blocked me!
 
Last edited:
I wouldn’t call it perfect, but it is a right wing conservative state. They’re very strong on law and order (and military). They also have low taxes and a pro business climate.
Plus super low crime. Think we had like only 8 murders the post-covid year when I think there was a massive spike elsewhere in the world.

You can walk anywhere at 3am without feeling threaten. I see a lot of women jogging alone at night like 10pm, only my way back from my bike ride. (Not me out perving just in case you are wondering.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: snarlcakes
Reading through this thread, it seems like we're all on a sliding 'bad guy' scale, depending on which version of God is worshipped..
Ass backwards, again.
There is only one God.

There are many 'versions' of worship.
 
It depends who's perspective.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but could you please tell me whose objective perspective equates Hamas's murder and beheading of innocent babies and rape and murder of young women with IDF tactics?

"Oppressed" people can cross the line of moral "resistance." If you do not believe that what Hamas just did crosses that line, you aren't objective, you are deluded and depraved (that last word isn't hyperbole, either).

Also, why do you think living in Singapore gives you a more objective view of the Israeli-Palestine dispute than those living in the United States? Both places are thousands of miles away, dominated by different cultures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IUCrazy2

Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good


We need to be able to speak in nuanced terms, including about Russell Brand or Donald Trump








I have been saying this for a while now. In the political arena. when you break things down into just two sides, or are forced to just choose from a menu of two sides, it's just a basic form of manipulation.

Or with the Gen Zs who seem to think in terms of absolutes, cops are pigs etc which clearly they are only projecting the bad apples onto the whole profession. Everything is just a two-sided discussion/argument. Good v Bad.

Then you mix it with a society, or political/government system that is very reactionary/short-termism or knee-jerks (like the drastic de-criminalisation of the justice system) we are where we are today.

On an individual level, folks need to grow some self-awareness.

At a political level too where everything isn't so black & white -- and the current voting system, based on Duverger's Law will only maintain a two-party system -- which is fecked, extremely undemocratic -- never mind just manipulative and designed to maintain the status quo.

At a geo-political level, the 'good guys' versus 'bad guys' outlook on the world is just some child-like fantasist view of the world.

Everyone's got blood on their hands. There are no good guys and bad guys. Just folks looking at doing things for self-interest whether it's the situations in Ukraine, India/Modi, or with China. And pretending otherwise is just being a fantasist.

The use of the term 'national security' scares me -- a blanket term slapped on entities, groups of people etc when there is little proof or evidence. Good guys v bad guys

Reminds me of the domino theory slapped onto countries and wars and countless deaths. Good system versus bad system. Yet we are dealing with a 'communist' Vietnam now for example.

Folks need to wake up.
 
Plus super low crime. Think we had like only 8 murders the post-covid year when I think there was a massive spike elsewhere in the world.

You can walk anywhere at 3am without feeling threaten. I see a lot of women jogging alone at night like 10pm, only my way back from my bike ride. (Not me out perving just in case you are wondering.)
But who can afford a car there
 
  • Sad
Reactions: sglowrider
I agree with a lot of what you say, but could you please tell me whose objective perspective equates Hamas's murder and beheading of innocent babies and rape and murder of young women with IDF tactics?

"Oppressed" people can cross the line of moral "resistance." If you do not believe that what Hamas just did crosses that line, you aren't objective, you are deluded and depraved (that last word isn't hyperbole, either).

Also, why do you think living in Singapore gives you a more objective view of the Israeli-Palestine dispute than those living in the United States? Both places are thousands of miles away, dominated by different cultures.

I am surrounded by Muslims here. You interact with them and her their perspectives. You hear both sides of the conflict.

They view is that the Israelis are evil because they kill Palestinians on a daily basis (a bunch of Palestinians were shot dead in the West Bank a day before the attack); stole their land and basically have imposed apartheid on them.

And don't be a simpleton. Just because I offer another side to the story doesn't mean I condone what they did.
This world isn't about 'if you aren't with me, you must be against me.' If so, then this isn't a forum but some echo chamber.

There are over 1.2 billion Muslims out there. Do you think they are all evil and or became 'evil' in isolation? Surely you are bright enough to at least question why they have such a big issue against the West? I hope.

It's a perpetual Newton's 3rd law in play.

Both sides in these long drawn out conflicts have done shit things. But if you want to take that simplified perspective and see one action/event and then judge them on that -- Go ahead but you are selling your intelligence short. History and time perspective matters.
 
Not all cultures are equivalent not all governments are equivalent.

If you’re unwilling to make a value judgment on Hamas/ CCP/ Putin vs. Israel/ U.S. you are at best a moral coward and at worse amoral yourself.
 
I am surrounded by Muslims here. You interact with them and her their perspectives. You hear both sides of the conflict.

They view is that the Israelis are evil because they kill Palestinians on a daily basis (a bunch of Palestinians were shot dead in the West Bank a day before the attack); stole their land and basically have imposed apartheid on them.

And don't be a simpleton. Just because I offer another side to the story doesn't mean I condone what they did.
This world isn't about 'if you aren't with me, you must be against me.' If so, then this isn't a forum but some echo chamber.

There are over 1.2 billion Muslims out there. Do you think they are all evil and or became 'evil' in isolation? Surely you are bright enough to at least question why they have such a big issue against the West? I hope.

It's a perpetual Newton's 3rd law in play.

Both sides in these long drawn out conflicts have done shit things. But if you want to take that simplified perspective and see one action/event and then judge them on that -- Go ahead but you are selling your intelligence short. History and time perspective matters.
You're missing the point and reading too much into what I wrote that was not there. As I said, our opinions mostly align on this subject. Not everyone who pushes back at you on a topic is a jingoistic American or anti-Chinese racist--you'd do well to remember that, instead of coming out swinging.

I don't judge all Palestinians or Muslims based on the actions of Hamas over the last week. Read my other posts. But I do judge Hamas based on those actions. I judge those people who committed them and supported it. And I judge those actions as evil. It really is pretty simple. One can offer a lot of explanations for why those people did what they did, but one cannot offer any justifications that are not depraved.

As for your explanation of the Muslim's opinions around you, as my 15-year-old daughter would say, "obvi!" I've known that for decades. And I didn't have to live in Singapore to learn it. There are books on the subject, magazine articles, and even here in the United States, Jews and Muslims who I've known for decades (many I met at IU) who don't all have uniform opinions on the subject.
 
I am just now starting to get back some of my energy and stamina and appetite and lung function, and I caught it back in March or April.
Takes about six months to get it all back IMO.

I think I may have picked it up again but the symptoms are pretty mild ... only feel it if I am on the treadmill -- high heart rate for teh time & pace I was going plus the lungs feel pretty stressed out.
(I had the bivalent shot like 4 months ago.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: UncleMark
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT