Dakich - “RMK mailed it in, last few seasons”
- Thread starter IndyGlen
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Not trying to be mean to Dakich but I wouldn’t take anything he says super seriously. I watched those years and never got the feeling Coach Knight was coasting. If there is criticism to be had it was the lack of a deep tourney run since the mid 90’s.
Additionally based off of Coach Davis rapid decline the further he got from players who were coached by Coach Knight and the lack of results even at lesser schools after leaving Indiana, I would be incredibly hesitant to attribute any success either during Coach Knights years or after to Coach Davis.
I think there’s some truth to it from a recruiting standpoint. BK hated that and relied heavily on assistants to go see kids in high school and aau games. And he hated the culture that was prioritizing aau coaches over high ones. So, in that regard, I think Dakich is on point.
Gotcha. Perhaps from a recruiting standpoint. I didn’t follow recruiting much back then.
Mailed it in.....
....like Dan Dakich does every show?
That's called 'delegating'.
I would ask Dakich, what if Recker and Collier stuck around and Reed left a year earlier and Knight didn't get fired and instead went into 2001-02 with Haston back to go along with Andre Owens, Jeffries, Moye, Newton, Coverdale, Fife, Hornsby and Odle? And what if then Sean May committed?
Good grief. IU was loaded and rolling.
The decline from the ‘93 season up to the firing had zero to do with Knight “coasting”.
Some might say “Knight didn’t like recruiting” - which is true, but that goes back a long way before the ‘90’s. 1985 happened in large part because of Knight’s adversion to recruiting - Delray Brooks and Malcolm Sims are 2 examples.
In the early 80’s there was a decline in overall talent in the state. Alford was Mr Basketball, but he had his limitations; needed others around him. Up until really 1987 - when Knight got Edwards and Jones from Marion - did the state have top-level talent, the kind Knight had built National Championships and Big 10 titles on.
He hit the same issue in the 90’s. After Henderson and Evans in ‘91, several years passed without getting good, hard-nosed players.
But understand, the “coasting” years weren’t just about a lack of talent. After Brand was hired, there was a lot of back room behind-the-scenes tension building between Knight, Clarence Donniger and Brand (that is another story for another time).
Knights has said he should have left after the 1994 season. That probably would have been best for him.
I would agree with much of what you say here. My one objection would be that in the early 80's as well as in the mid to late 90's, there wasn't so much a decline in overall talent in the state as much as the talent was in the northern part of the state.
The majority of the Mr. Basketballs during the early to mid- 1980's were from the northern part of the state. Skiles from Plymouth, Brooks and Palombizio from Michigan City Rogers, Harden from Valparaiso, Grose from Warsaw, Jewell from Lafayette, etc. And Knight either struck out trying to get those guys (in the case of Glenn Robinson and Carson Cunningham in the early 90's) or totally ignored guys from this area. One that I know being Tim McAllister from Gary West and Oklahoma.
Knight's last player he signed from the northern part of the state was Luke Recker from Dekalb. Matt Nover from Chesterton was the last guy before Recker. From 1988 until 1997 he signed exactly one guy north of Marion in the state. Let that sink in for a moment.
Lots of good players from this area during that time. Keady poached plenty of them. Big Dog, Jaraan Cornell, Brad Miller, Cunningham, the McQuay Brothers, etc. He seemed to do ok with those guys.
This is the reason why we slipped near the end of Knight's tenure. He ignored or couldn't sign the best players in the state. It was not because he was getting the best players,and they just weren't as talented as in previous years.
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You forgot backstabbing, Formally Wisc Hoosier.
The incoming class of 1993 is really where things went downhill. Sherron and Steve Hart were both dismissed after a few years, Rob Foster left without playing 1 minute. The only 4 year players were Richard Mandeville and Robbie Eggers. Follow that up with the highly ranked class of 1994, in which Patterson and Charlie Miller never reached their potential. And we all know how Neil Reed and Michael Hermon ended up.
BK not only didn’t like recruiting, he began to do much less of it, and that was impactful to the program. Yes, the talent in Indiana dipped, but there were plenty of kids in Illinois and Ohio, two states where we had done quite well during his time.
What he liked about recruiting was slipping into a high school game, watching some of it to scout a kid, and then getting out before people surrounded him. The recruiting process was changing during that time, and he largely decided to not go along with the changes. He didn’t like the control some high school and definitely aau coaches had, and parents were becoming more prominent on the process, as well. BK had some rather negative encounters with a mom and dad (or two), and fewer kids were as interested in the kind of coaching style he brought to the equation. Consequently, we began to slip.
From a recruiting standpoint, DD is right.
You mean that "marvel of the modern day education system" Michael Hermon....
This is news? Not to anyone but RMK sycophants. As someone points out, even RMK admitted as much, at least on recruiting. He lost interest in recruiting and was more interested in fishing and golf trips during the summer (and posturing out of it), and was frustrated with the AD and admin. This is news to anyone?
Like I said in a previous post, I didn’t really follow recruiting much back then. I just find it hard to believe that Coach Knight was coasting because he didn’t stop when IU fired him. He went to Texas Tech, a team that had only had two 20+ win seasons going back to 1980, and in 6 full seasons he won 20+ games 5 times. If he wasn’t recruiting..... he must have been the greatest coach to ever walk the planet.
From a recruiting stand point, yes. The lone exception being Jeffries' class. He put work in on Jeffries, and along he way he saw Moye.
Granted, after the classes he landed in 1993 and 1994 (both large classes), he got big names out of 1995, 1996 and 1997, much of what he did without a ton of effort. He probably thought that group was going to deliver a title, so from the summers of 1993 to 1997, he didn't go out much. The problem is the classes of 1993 and 1994 didn't do much, and the stars who follow (Reed, Collier, Recker) each transferred out.
I experienced his lack of presence first hand.
Brooks, of course, went to and left IU. Palombizio was never good enough for the B1G. Grose wasn't going to help IU, and Jewell was awful. Other than Grose and Skiles, there was some big stat, over rated teams out of Northern Indiana in the mid-late 80's, at a time when most of them coasted to the Semi-state. One of them was bound to make it to the state finals.
IU had Robinson, but Knight's ego got in the way. It's been wondered if it was a test, but Robinson didn't care for the lecture and opted for Purdue.
Cunningham was class of '96, not early 90's, with the McQuays.
Miller was truly a late bloomer, who wasn't able to finish HS in Indiana. He is, however, an illustration how the trajectory of big man development is often skewed. I liked him in HS from a prospect standpoint.
Cornell was such a good kid (not that the others weren't). He was smooth, effortless.
yeah, overall I did think their was less IN talent in the late 80s, early 90s. Aside from Robinson, and Miller, the rest of those guys were mostly role players. Didn't Palombizio have a good game at AH when he played there with BSU? I was thinking he scored a career high, but my memory gets foggy on such things.
“Coasting” is a provocative description (some might say it’s inflammatory) that I probably wouldn’t use. I think the times were a changing’ and BK wasn’t very interested in going along. He also relied on some of his coaches to watch kids (rather than going to games himself), and that caused us to not go after some kids we should have. It also permitted some commitments that we shouldn’t have accepted (DRB and DP were two), and the talent level dropped. But he could’ve been more active, and he wasn’t.
BK kind of tolerated CD when he was just an alum and former player, but he chaffed under his “leadership”, which BK didn’t want or accept, and it became a battle of wills and, occasionally, childishness. He really liked Orwig and Floyd, and CD wasn’t either of those guys.
Oh yeah. Knight saw a lot of it going on - starting with how Mallory was treated.
BK took Palombizio’s commitment without seeing him play much. Then DP’s dad blew that up. I’m not sure at all that we had GR. His academic profile was challenging, to say the least. Not Shawn Kemp challenging, but close.
Palombizio didn't want to redshirt and that was the plan, so he went a different direction.
Mr. Basketball, HS AA, led the state in scoring and rebounding, 3 time first team all state, yet ends up at Ball State.
Mr. Basketball, HS AA, led the state in scoring and rebounding, 3 time first team all state, yet ends up at Ball State.
That’s part of the story, but there’s more to it than that. His “de-commitment” came about after one disastrous meeting in Bloomington. And he went to Purdue before he ended up in Muncie.
His story is that it was the redshirt, but maybe you know more about his decision than he does. I have an open mind. What's the rest of the story?
Skiles - with his arrests in high school - was never gonna get a look from Knight.
Palombizio acutally committed to IU, then flipped to Purdue after Knight wanted to redshirt him. He ended up transferring to Ball State after Russell Cross came to the Boilers.
Harden's dad was a Converse rep; Knight's team wore Adidas Top 10's for years (personally loved that shoe).
Grose going to Northwestern shows how weak a Mr. Basketball was. Same for Jewell going to Iowa. Either of them a top-notch recruit, Keady or Digger Phelps would have been all over them.
You're probably right to an extent - Knight didn't have a lot of success in the Northern part of the state after 75 (in his first 4 classes, he signed John Laskowski, Tom Abernathy and Rich Valavicius). He back then feasted on central and southern Indiana, Illinois and Ohio.
Big Dog - with his Prop 48 issue (what a screwed-up rule) wasn't recruited as hard as Henderson. But what a helluva player! His dunk at the Hall of Fame Classic is still the stuff of legends here in New Castle.
Cornell was a guy I would have loved to have gotten. His trey to send '94 state title game to OT was huge for a sophomore.
Miller got into trouble on the recruiting trip to Oklahoma St, which is large part of why Knight backed off.
Hey, Knight wasn't for everyone. And as the 90's went along, society changed and Knight didn't allow himself to be flexible enough in some instances. Bottom line, it was a complex confluence of events and issues that led to the "coasting" (gotta laugh at that term. winning 20 game min every year and making it to the tournament was "coasting"?).
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DD knows it. Call his show and ask him. He and his dad were looking for some guarantees, and BK wasn’t interested in that. The meeting with BK ended with his offer being withdrawn. DP then went to Purdue before ultimately transferring to BSU.
Palombizio says it was a redshirt issue and he should have stayed at Indiana. How would Dakich know? Were you both in the room?
He also calls leaving Purdue a mistake. That must still sting you a little, huh?
DD was in Bloomington, too. I realize you’re not an IU basketball fan, so I understand why you weren’t aware of what happened, or that he even went to Purdue. Hope I was able to help.
I think fletch was referring to the "multiple" schools Hermon was in before he got to IU.
No, that was what Knight called him after signing him. He missed like 75% of his classes his senior year at King High School in Chicago. Yet he somehow graduated.
You're such a clown. Dakich and Palombizio are the same age, both graduating HS in '81. Dakich wasn't in Bloomington yet when the offer was accepted and wouldn't have been in the room when the meeting went down.
If you knew about half of what you claim to know, you'd really be something.
"I should have committed and signed with Indiana," Palombizio said. "I made a mistake. Indiana won the (1981) national championship and they wanted to redshirt me. I was Mr. Basketball and didn't want to redshirt. I wanted to play right away."
Source Article
Bloom, what were your thoughts on Michael Lewis when he was in HS? Did you think that he would be as productive at IU as he was? Did you think he was a "reach"? Listed at 6'1, but could not have been over 5'11 and 160... thanks
He (DD) and his dad were visiting, too. Not shocked that you weren’t aware, just like you didn’t realize DP went to Purdue. His quote makes it clear how things went sideways. He and his dad showed up wanting promises of playing time. The meeting ended very poorly, with BK pissed. Not surprising that you pretend to have insight, yet have none. Just another new IU fan with no real knowledge of the program.
Am I the only one who's thinking: "What do you mean he didn't do well in the northern part of the state: we snagged Dakich out of Andrean didn't we?" Yes, I'm probably the only one thinking that. Tongue firmly in cheek.
I was in middle school back then, not really processing much about Ball State.
Dan followed suit and became a helicopter parent of his own.
He wasn't good enough to play in the B1G.
Mike likes to tell people when we're around each other than I thought he wasn't good enough to play for the team I coached. (LaMont Roland, LSU; Travis Best, Louisville; Andrew Graves, Butler; Jimmie Metcalfe, Indiana State) While he was really good, I wasn't cutting any of those guys. He had to play a year up back then, so when he could finally play in his own age group at 17U, my group was pretty set at the guard and wings. (We were pretty damn good.)
When Lewis committed to Indiana, I was surprised. I didn't think he would be good enough to play, just as I thought Butler (MCC conference back then) was a great fit for Graves (who followed in his brother's footsteps). However, Lewis really changed his approach to playing. Lewis is the great example of doing what he needed to do to get on the court, and at no point could anyone question his toughness or IQ.
His scoring wasn't going to translate in the B1G, and I didn't see him really make his teammates better in high school.
He had an odd career at IU, graduating as Indiana's all-time assists leader, only starting 66 of 126 games, including just 19 of his 29 games his senior year, and along with Guyton, they were the first group to not win a B1G title under Knight. He played on some strange teams, and in a lot of ways he was the constant, the glue.
He had a good senior year, and I always felt in his last two years he needed to be way more aggressive.
I'm glad he found success at UCLA.
More to this just the Prop 48 issue. Knight lectured him during a visit. I'm guessing Robinson didn't yet have an offer, which I'm thinking the visit was to meet and extend the offer. The meeting didn't go well.
His core class profile was going to make admittance to IU extremely difficult, if not impossible. I think he also displayed what BK interpreted as a lack of respect (he slouched, wore a ball cap indoors, which was a no-no for BK), and it pissed him off and led to an adversarial atmosphere. You’re right, it was not a good meeting.
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