Chinese Govt is lying..

[sglowrider]

Somehow this morphed into something totally off the rails of what's important here. We've got the world in shutdown because of a novel virus.... and experts around the globe are trying to model scenarios to create the best policy responses.

Would certainly be beneficial to have valid data from the actual source of the virus.... instead we've had to wait for reliable data from other countries that later had outbreaks.

Trump is a buffoon and deserves plenty of scorn for his public comments, but it's not like Europe has done much better with this.

Whether the data was accurate or inaccurate has little bearing on how it was handled in the States. Its was just a shiny object thrown in your direction. Democrats have had this done to them many times by Trump in the past three years. Now its in your shoe.

For all those who think Trump did enough? This is what the government did here just in the month f January and then we have some basis of comparison and the ability to judge:


2020 coronavirus pandemic in Singapore
Preventive measures

January 2020

• 2 January: The Ministry of Health (MOH) issued a health advisory and implemented temperature checks for passengers arriving in Changi Airport from Wuhan the following day.[188]
• 20 January: Temperature screening at Changi Airport was extended to all travellers coming from China. In addition, individuals with pneumonia who had travelled to Wuhan within 14 days before the onset of symptoms were isolated in hospital.[189][190]
• 22 January: Quarantine measures were extended to travellers who arrived from China and displayed symptoms.[191] After three more suspected cases were detected, a multi-ministry taskforce was convened to tackle the issues caused by the coronavirus pandemic. The MOH advised against non-essential trips to Wuhan[5] and expanded the travel advisory the following day to all of Hubei.[192] MINDEF issued two medical advisories to service personnel.[193]
• 24 January: With the first confirmed local case, border control measures were enhanced and extended to land and sea checkpoints with the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority and Maritime and Port Authority of Singapore starting temperature checks from noon of that day.[194][195] In addition, schools asked parents to declare their travel plans and monitor their children's health.[196][197]
• Between 23 and 26 January: Scoot cancelled flights to Wuhan over the virus pandemic, after a lockdown was imposed.[198] The suspension was later extended to 29 March.[199]
• 24 January:
  • Holiday chalets were being prepared as quarantine centres. Some of these chalets had served as quarantine centres in previous outbreaks, such as the 2003 SARS outbreak and 2009 flu pandemic.[200] Measures such as temperature screening and quarantine facilities were put in place at foreign worker dormitories.[201] Transportation companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT and private hire operators have since taken more precautions against the virus with hand saniters, disinfectants and masks provided. Advisories were also distributed.[202]
  • On the same day, a Scoot flight was delayed in Hangzhou for six hours after one passenger was sent for further testing, causing passengers and crew to be quarantined.[203] The flight returned with Singaporeans three days later.[204]
• 25 January: MOH imposed a visitor limit of two per patient in hospitals to slow the spread of the virus. Some hospitals have discouraged children from visiting.[205]
• 27 January:
  • Singaporeans were advised to avoid non-essential travel to China.[206] Temperature screening at Changi Airport was also expanded to all incoming flights from the next day, with extra scrutiny on flights from China and passengers from Hubei. In addition, people returning from China were asked to fill health and travel declarations and monitor their health with regular temperature checks for two weeks.[207][208] A 14-day leave of absence (LOA) was imposed on students and teachers as well as workers who work with vulnerable populations, such as pre-schoolers, the elderly and the sick, returning from mainland China. Students were asked to do home-based learning instead.[206][209][210] In addition to the chalets, university hostels at National University of Singapore, Nanyang Technological University, and Singapore Management University were prepared as quarantine facilities.[211] Other measures include expanded communication channels, cleaning protocols and disinfection of premises after incidents.[212]
  • Taxi companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT, Premier Taxi and Trans-Cab announced a waiver of cab rental fees should any driver get quarantined.[213]
  • The government clamped down on false statements and rumours,[214] with the first being a HardwareZone forum receiving a Protection from Online Falsehoods and Manipulation Act (POFMA) notice on a false claim that one man had died due to the virus. The post is deleted a day before the notice is issued.[215]
• 28 January:
  • Enhanced quarantine measures were announced for those returning from Hubei and those of a higher risk, coming after the detection of seven cases at that point. In addition, travellers from Hubei were denied entry from noon of 29 January. All forms of visas for Hubei travellers were suspended immediately.[216][217] A $100 allowance per day will be provided to those self-employed under quarantine orders, with home quarantine options available. Hospital bills will be paid by MOH for all suspected and confirmed cases of the virus as the illness is caused by an emerging disease.[218] With the restrictions in place, the Ministry of Manpower started rejecting new applications for workers from Hubei, with existing applications unaffected.[219] In a joint media statement by the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) and the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA), National Service (NS) pre-enlistees who had travelled to China and been due for enlistment were given a mandatory leave of absence of up to 14 days.[220][221]
  • Facebook is issued a correction notice over a post falsely claiming the closure of Woodlands station due to the virus.[222]
• 29 January: Singapore Airlines announced a suspension of layovers from 30 January for cabin crew and pilots to Beijing and Shanghai, in a move to protect the safety of all crew. Jetstar Asia will suspend flights to Hefei, Guiyang and Xuzhou in China from 30 January until 31 March, after which the suspension will be reviewed.[223] In addition, Outward Bound Singapore camps in Pulau Ubin have been designated quarantine facilities.[224]
• 31 January: Singapore announced that all new visitors with recent travel history to mainland China within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry into Singapore, or to transit through Singapore. It took effect on 1 February at 2359 hours.[225]

This was January 2020. There is more obviously in February as the measures escalate.

I confess that I have never even heard of the term 'social distancing' until a few weeks ago. But this was a term the folks here had used in their pandemic management strategic plans (online) written in 2014.

We can bitch about everyone who did this or that like the Beijing Gov't -- and to be pedantic it was the Wuhan local government.
But ultimately, you focus on what you can control and not something you have zero control over (like the Wuhan city government's ineptitude) if we want to remain healthy both physically and mentally.

What do we have control over in this scenario? Hmmm, let me think...

 

[twenty02]

Whether the data was accurate or inaccurate has little bearing on how it was handled in the States. Its was just a shiny object thrown in your direction. Democrats have had this done to them many times by Trump in the past three years. Now its in your shoe.

For all those who think Trump did enough? This is what the government did here just in the month f January and then we have some basis of comparison and the ability to judge:


2020 coronavirus pandemic in Singapore
Preventive measures

January 2020

• 2 January: The Ministry of Health (MOH) issued a health advisory and implemented temperature checks for passengers arriving in Changi Airport from Wuhan the following day.[188]
• 20 January: Temperature screening at Changi Airport was extended to all travellers coming from China. In addition, individuals with pneumonia who had travelled to Wuhan within 14 days before the onset of symptoms were isolated in hospital.[189][190]
• 22 January: Quarantine measures were extended to travellers who arrived from China and displayed symptoms.[191] After three more suspected cases were detected, a multi-ministry taskforce was convened to tackle the issues caused by the coronavirus pandemic. The MOH advised against non-essential trips to Wuhan[5] and expanded the travel advisory the following day to all of Hubei.[192] MINDEF issued two medical advisories to service personnel.[193]
• 24 January: With the first confirmed local case, border control measures were enhanced and extended to land and sea checkpoints with the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority and Maritime and Port Authority of Singapore starting temperature checks from noon of that day.[194][195] In addition, schools asked parents to declare their travel plans and monitor their children's health.[196][197]
• Between 23 and 26 January: Scoot cancelled flights to Wuhan over the virus pandemic, after a lockdown was imposed.[198] The suspension was later extended to 29 March.[199]
• 24 January:
  • Holiday chalets were being prepared as quarantine centres. Some of these chalets had served as quarantine centres in previous outbreaks, such as the 2003 SARS outbreak and 2009 flu pandemic.[200] Measures such as temperature screening and quarantine facilities were put in place at foreign worker dormitories.[201] Transportation companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT and private hire operators have since taken more precautions against the virus with hand saniters, disinfectants and masks provided. Advisories were also distributed.[202]
  • On the same day, a Scoot flight was delayed in Hangzhou for six hours after one passenger was sent for further testing, causing passengers and crew to be quarantined.[203] The flight returned with Singaporeans three days later.[204]
• 25 January: MOH imposed a visitor limit of two per patient in hospitals to slow the spread of the virus. Some hospitals have discouraged children from visiting.[205]
• 27 January:
  • Singaporeans were advised to avoid non-essential travel to China.[206] Temperature screening at Changi Airport was also expanded to all incoming flights from the next day, with extra scrutiny on flights from China and passengers from Hubei. In addition, people returning from China were asked to fill health and travel declarations and monitor their health with regular temperature checks for two weeks.[207][208] A 14-day leave of absence (LOA) was imposed on students and teachers as well as workers who work with vulnerable populations, such as pre-schoolers, the elderly and the sick, returning from mainland China. Students were asked to do home-based learning instead.[206][209][210] In addition to the chalets, university hostels at National University of Singapore, Nanyang Technological University, and Singapore Management University were prepared as quarantine facilities.[211] Other measures include expanded communication channels, cleaning protocols and disinfection of premises after incidents.[212]
  • Taxi companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT, Premier Taxi and Trans-Cab announced a waiver of cab rental fees should any driver get quarantined.[213]
  • The government clamped down on false statements and rumours,[214] with the first being a HardwareZone forum receiving a Protection from Online Falsehoods and Manipulation Act (POFMA) notice on a false claim that one man had died due to the virus. The post is deleted a day before the notice is issued.[215]
• 28 January:
  • Enhanced quarantine measures were announced for those returning from Hubei and those of a higher risk, coming after the detection of seven cases at that point. In addition, travellers from Hubei were denied entry from noon of 29 January. All forms of visas for Hubei travellers were suspended immediately.[216][217] A $100 allowance per day will be provided to those self-employed under quarantine orders, with home quarantine options available. Hospital bills will be paid by MOH for all suspected and confirmed cases of the virus as the illness is caused by an emerging disease.[218] With the restrictions in place, the Ministry of Manpower started rejecting new applications for workers from Hubei, with existing applications unaffected.[219] In a joint media statement by the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) and the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA), National Service (NS) pre-enlistees who had travelled to China and been due for enlistment were given a mandatory leave of absence of up to 14 days.[220][221]
  • Facebook is issued a correction notice over a post falsely claiming the closure of Woodlands station due to the virus.[222]
• 29 January: Singapore Airlines announced a suspension of layovers from 30 January for cabin crew and pilots to Beijing and Shanghai, in a move to protect the safety of all crew. Jetstar Asia will suspend flights to Hefei, Guiyang and Xuzhou in China from 30 January until 31 March, after which the suspension will be reviewed.[223] In addition, Outward Bound Singapore camps in Pulau Ubin have been designated quarantine facilities.[224]
• 31 January: Singapore announced that all new visitors with recent travel history to mainland China within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry into Singapore, or to transit through Singapore. It took effect on 1 February at 2359 hours.[225]

This was January 2020. There is more obviously in February as the measures escalate.

I confess that I have never even heard of the term 'social distancing' until a few weeks ago. But this was a term the folks here had used in their pandemic management strategic plans (online) written in 2014.

We can bitch about everyone who did this or that like the Beijing Gov't -- and to be pedantic it was the Wuhan local government.
But ultimately, you focus on what you can control and not something you have zero control over (like the Wuhan city government's ineptitude) if we want to remain healthy both physically and mentally.

What do we have control over in this scenario? Hmmm, let me think...

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

 

[IUCrazy2]

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

****ing stupid isn't it.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Whether the data was accurate or inaccurate has little bearing on how it was handled in the States. Its was just a shiny object thrown in your direction. Democrats have had this done to them many times by Trump in the past three years. Now its in your shoe.

For all those who think Trump did enough? This is what the government did here just in the month f January and then we have some basis of comparison and the ability to judge:


2020 coronavirus pandemic in Singapore
Preventive measures

January 2020

• 2 January: The Ministry of Health (MOH) issued a health advisory and implemented temperature checks for passengers arriving in Changi Airport from Wuhan the following day.[188]
• 20 January: Temperature screening at Changi Airport was extended to all travellers coming from China. In addition, individuals with pneumonia who had travelled to Wuhan within 14 days before the onset of symptoms were isolated in hospital.[189][190]
• 22 January: Quarantine measures were extended to travellers who arrived from China and displayed symptoms.[191] After three more suspected cases were detected, a multi-ministry taskforce was convened to tackle the issues caused by the coronavirus pandemic. The MOH advised against non-essential trips to Wuhan[5] and expanded the travel advisory the following day to all of Hubei.[192] MINDEF issued two medical advisories to service personnel.[193]
• 24 January: With the first confirmed local case, border control measures were enhanced and extended to land and sea checkpoints with the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority and Maritime and Port Authority of Singapore starting temperature checks from noon of that day.[194][195] In addition, schools asked parents to declare their travel plans and monitor their children's health.[196][197]
• Between 23 and 26 January: Scoot cancelled flights to Wuhan over the virus pandemic, after a lockdown was imposed.[198] The suspension was later extended to 29 March.[199]
• 24 January:
  • Holiday chalets were being prepared as quarantine centres. Some of these chalets had served as quarantine centres in previous outbreaks, such as the 2003 SARS outbreak and 2009 flu pandemic.[200] Measures such as temperature screening and quarantine facilities were put in place at foreign worker dormitories.[201] Transportation companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT and private hire operators have since taken more precautions against the virus with hand saniters, disinfectants and masks provided. Advisories were also distributed.[202]
  • On the same day, a Scoot flight was delayed in Hangzhou for six hours after one passenger was sent for further testing, causing passengers and crew to be quarantined.[203] The flight returned with Singaporeans three days later.[204]
• 25 January: MOH imposed a visitor limit of two per patient in hospitals to slow the spread of the virus. Some hospitals have discouraged children from visiting.[205]
• 27 January:
  • Singaporeans were advised to avoid non-essential travel to China.[206] Temperature screening at Changi Airport was also expanded to all incoming flights from the next day, with extra scrutiny on flights from China and passengers from Hubei. In addition, people returning from China were asked to fill health and travel declarations and monitor their health with regular temperature checks for two weeks.[207][208] A 14-day leave of absence (LOA) was imposed on students and teachers as well as workers who work with vulnerable populations, such as pre-schoolers, the elderly and the sick, returning from mainland China. Students were asked to do home-based learning instead.[206][209][210] In addition to the chalets, university hostels at National University of Singapore, Nanyang Technological University, and Singapore Management University were prepared as quarantine facilities.[211] Other measures include expanded communication channels, cleaning protocols and disinfection of premises after incidents.[212]
  • Taxi companies like ComfortDelGro, SMRT, Premier Taxi and Trans-Cab announced a waiver of cab rental fees should any driver get quarantined.[213]
  • The government clamped down on false statements and rumours,[214] with the first being a HardwareZone forum receiving a Protection from Online Falsehoods and Manipulation Act (POFMA) notice on a false claim that one man had died due to the virus. The post is deleted a day before the notice is issued.[215]
• 28 January:
  • Enhanced quarantine measures were announced for those returning from Hubei and those of a higher risk, coming after the detection of seven cases at that point. In addition, travellers from Hubei were denied entry from noon of 29 January. All forms of visas for Hubei travellers were suspended immediately.[216][217] A $100 allowance per day will be provided to those self-employed under quarantine orders, with home quarantine options available. Hospital bills will be paid by MOH for all suspected and confirmed cases of the virus as the illness is caused by an emerging disease.[218] With the restrictions in place, the Ministry of Manpower started rejecting new applications for workers from Hubei, with existing applications unaffected.[219] In a joint media statement by the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) and the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA), National Service (NS) pre-enlistees who had travelled to China and been due for enlistment were given a mandatory leave of absence of up to 14 days.[220][221]
  • Facebook is issued a correction notice over a post falsely claiming the closure of Woodlands station due to the virus.[222]
• 29 January: Singapore Airlines announced a suspension of layovers from 30 January for cabin crew and pilots to Beijing and Shanghai, in a move to protect the safety of all crew. Jetstar Asia will suspend flights to Hefei, Guiyang and Xuzhou in China from 30 January until 31 March, after which the suspension will be reviewed.[223] In addition, Outward Bound Singapore camps in Pulau Ubin have been designated quarantine facilities.[224]
• 31 January: Singapore announced that all new visitors with recent travel history to mainland China within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry into Singapore, or to transit through Singapore. It took effect on 1 February at 2359 hours.[225]

This was January 2020. There is more obviously in February as the measures escalate.

I confess that I have never even heard of the term 'social distancing' until a few weeks ago. But this was a term the folks here had used in their pandemic management strategic plans (online) written in 2014.

We can bitch about everyone who did this or that like the Beijing Gov't -- and to be pedantic it was the Wuhan local government.
But ultimately, you focus on what you can control and not something you have zero control over (like the Wuhan city government's ineptitude) if we want to remain healthy both physically and mentally.

What do we have control over in this scenario? Hmmm, let me think...

Imagine having one airport and being the size of a postage stamp compared to the US and thinking the two are comparable.

You aren’t a serious person in these discussions. But I am glad that you are safe and I mean that with sincerity.

 

[sglowrider]

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

The thing is Twenty, we all live in an era where we have the POTUS lying over 16,000 times, the last time I heard. And we are worried about Beijing -- and/or rather Wuhan's lies?

 

[IUCrazy2]

The thing is Twenty, we all live in an era where we have the POTUS lying over 16,000 times, the last time I heard. And we are worried about Beijing -- and/or rather Wuhan's lies?

Yes. Stop sticking up for the CCP. They knowingly lied to the world about this virus and that did cloud how people in other countries approached it. That is directly counter to what their obligations are w.r.t. the WHO.

Their lies led to it becoming a pandemic in the first place in order to save face. They've tanked the global economy. Trump trying to reassure people it is going to be ok when panic buyers were cleaning stores out of things like toilet paper is nothing next to what the CCP did.

 

[sglowrider]

Imagine having one airport and being the size of a postage stamp compared to the US and thinking the two are comparable.

You aren’t a serious person in these discussions. But I am glad that you are safe and I mean that with sincerity.

And Ranger, as a consultant, do you always try and make sure that every client you meet has to have the exact scenario for your solutions to work? Seriously!! You cookie-cutter every solution you offer then or basically you have one client?

As I said before, you need to know the strengths of each client and their weakness. You accentuate their strength and you mitigate their weaknesses. You are supposed to be consulting -- not selling. That's the difference.

Every scenario is different -- its how you enhance each.

 

[twenty02]

The thing is Twenty, we all live in an era where we have the POTUS lying over 16,000 times, the last time I heard. And we are worried about Beijing -- and/or rather Wuhan's lies?

Yeah but there is a wide gulf between a President saying untruthful things.... and the actual govt releasing false medical info.

 

[IUclover]

Whether the data was accurate or inaccurate has little bearing on how it was handled in the States. Its was just a shiny object thrown in your direction. Democrats have had this done to them many times by Trump in the past three years. Now its in your shoe.

For all those who think Trump did enough? This is what the government did here just in the month f January and then we have some basis of comparison and the ability to judge:

What do we have control over in this scenario? Hmmm, let me think...

This is what Trump did (took from a user on another site)...

The CDC issued its first warning on Jan 8. Trump held rallies on:

• Jan 9th
• Jan 14th
• Jan 28th
• Jan 30th
• Feb 10th
• Feb 19th
• Feb 20th
• Feb 21st
• Feb 28th

He golfed on:

• Jan 18th
• Jan 19th
• Feb 1st
• Feb 15th
• Mar 7th
• Mar 8th
  

 

[sglowrider]

This is what Trump did (took from a user on another site)...

The CDC issued its first warning on Jan 8. Trump held rallies on:

• Jan 9th
• Jan 14th
• Jan 28th
• Jan 30th
• Feb 10th
• Feb 19th
• Feb 20th
• Feb 21st
• Feb 28th

He golfed on:

• Jan 18th
• Jan 19th
• Feb 1st
• Feb 15th
• Mar 7th
• Mar 8th

They say you can golf yourself to health or really, one person I know says.

 

[Stuffshot]

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

Hell, not me. I despise both of them.

Say whatever you want about both China and Trump, so long as it's based on demonstrable fact. If you do that, the odds are sky high that you'd be saying "mean things" about both of them.

 

[hoosboot]

this is the millionteenth time we’ve litigated this issue. The action was in the task force. If your point is trump talks too much, I’ll stipulate. But that’s a side show. Fauci explained why your so-called delay was inconsequential.

Your replies never add up logically. If the delay was inconsequential, why are you complaining about Nancy on Feb 24th? If the task force is where the action is, why is your boy giving out misinformation in briefings every day rather than let the leaders of the task force hand out information?

Lovely for you to stipulate a portion of the obvious. I'll stay consistent on the facts and wait for you to eventually come around on the rest of the obvious once you run out of other excuses.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Imagine having one airport and being the size of a postage stamp compared to the US and thinking the two are comparable.

You aren’t a serious person in these discussions. But I am glad that you are safe and I mean that with sincerity.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

He continues to ignore obvious examples of other countries failures that have been pointed out by several of us. This is a perfect example of where TDS emanated from.

 

[mohoosier]

Intelligence officials were warning Trump about a pandemic as early as January, but they 'couldn't get him to do anything about it'

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-intelligence-warned-trump-of-pandemic-in-january-2020-3

You step in your own shit every time you post.

 

[hoosboot]

You step in your own shit every time you post.

That's not the computer you're looking at. It's the mirror.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

View embedded media

I suppose it will be quite some time before we really know how big of a snowjob China played on everyone, but I will say this: Reports like this make it very hard to trust anything coming out of WHO.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Yes. Stop sticking up for the CCP. They knowingly lied to the world about this virus and that did cloud how people in other countries approached it. That is directly counter to what their obligations are w.r.t. the WHO.

Their lies led to it becoming a pandemic in the first place in order to save face. They've tanked the global economy. Trump trying to reassure people it is going to be ok when panic buyers were cleaning stores out of things like toilet paper is nothing next to what the CCP did.

That’s not exactly what Trump was lying about...

 

[Zizkov]

Imagine having one airport and being the size of a postage stamp compared to the US and thinking the two are comparable.

You aren’t a serious person in these discussions. But I am glad that you are safe and I mean that with sincerity.

I also find you way of thinking on this a bit flawed.

Size doesn't matter in a lot of ways (TWSS) with regards to this situation. We are small too, but that's not the reason are situation is much better than the US. Not even close.

We had consistent messaging and preparation. We were told the situation clearly, what to expect and what might need to be done to handle it.

We started getting the supplies we needed (PPE, vent), we quarantined early, required masks early and have been well informed. None of this has to do with size.

Has everything been perfect? Of course not. Everything country, policy, person (except Jessica Alba) remedy is flawed, but there are countries that approached it with clear concise accurate information and that is a far bigger indicator of success than size.

Nobody was going to stop this thing from spreading,but the US has had one of the worst responses in the world and it's going to cost 10,000s of lives.

Our early action has flattened the curve to the point of being able to help supply Italy and Spain with much needed PPE. We had very little run on supermarkets/toilet paper (WTF?) after the first couple days because we were clearly told what preparations were being done and understood supply line would be open and there was no need.

The inconsistent and at times blatantly inaccurate information coming from the WH has exacerbated an already difficult situation. This has nothing to do with size or having a homogeneous population (still never understood this argument), it's all about clear messaging and good preparation.

Even with all this, cases are rising (we are currently at 3,538 cases and 39 dead) and expect to reach almost 15,000 by mid May. It's an incredibly difficult situation that even with good planning is hard to control.

Many of the things that sglowrider has been criticized for saying the US should be doing have been echoed by Dr Fauci. Yes, the US is much bigger and also has far greater resources than every other country.

Lack of clear, concise messaging/information and preparation are by far the biggest problems the US has had. Just last year the US was rated the most prepared country for an epidemic in the world:

https://www.statista.com/chart/20629/ability-to-respond-to-an-epidemic-or-pandemic/

I get that some of the measures taken by countries like Singapore would be far more difficult in the US, but that's a small issue compared to the simple things that could have been done to help.

There's nothing that can be done about that now, but there are still states allowing too much free movement with everything we know now. The fact that Florida just shutdown is downright criminal.

I realize that I am probably pissing in the wind, but some of the stuff I still reads shocks me.

This isn't meant as a shot at you, I find you quite thoughtful and reasonable, even if I disagree with you.

EDITED to properly spell sglowrider.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I also find you way of thinking on this a bit flawed.

Size doesn't matter in a lot of ways (TWSS) with regards to this situation. We are small too, but that's not the reason are situation is much better than the US. Not even close.

We had consistent messaging and preparation. We were told the situation clearly, what to expect and what might need to be done to handle it.

We started getting the supplies we needed (PPE, vent), we quarantined early, required masks early and have been well informed. None of this has to do with size.

Has everything been perfect? Of course not. Everything country, policy, person (except Jessica Alba) remedy is flawed, but there are countries that approached it with clear concise accurate information and that is a far bigger indicator of success than size.

Nobody was going to stop this thing from spreading,but the US has had one of the worst responses in the world and it's going to cost 10,000s of lives.

Our early action has flattened the curve to the point of being able to help supply Italy and Spain with much needed PPE. We had very little run on supermarkets/toilet paper (WTF?) after the first couple days because we were clearly told what preparations were being done and understood supply line would be open and there was no need.

The inconsistent and at times blatantly inaccurate information coming from the WH has exacerbated an already difficult situation. This has nothing to do with size or having a homogeneous population (still never understood this argument), it's all about clear messaging and good preparation.

Even with all this, cases are rising (we are currently at 3,538 cases and 39 dead) and expect to reach almost 15,000 by mid May. It's an incredibly difficult situation that even with good planning is hard to control.

Many of the things that sglowrider has been criticized for saying the US should be doing have been echoed by Dr Fauci. Yes, the US is much bigger and also has far greater resources than every other country.

Lack of clear, concise messaging/information and preparation are by far the biggest problems the US has had. Just last year the US was rated the most prepared country for an epidemic in the world:

https://www.statista.com/chart/20629/ability-to-respond-to-an-epidemic-or-pandemic/

I get that some of the measures taken by countries like Singapore would be far more difficult in the US, but that's a small issue compared to the simple things that could have been done to help.

There's nothing that can be done about that now, but there are still states allowing too much free movement with everything we know now. The fact that Florida just shutdown is downright criminal.

I realize that I am probably pissing in the wind, but some of the stuff I still reads shocks me.

This isn't meant as a shot at you, I find you quite thoughtful and reasonable, even if I disagree with you.

EDITED to properly spell sglowrider.

There is zero doubt, zero, that every country could’ve handled this better - especially the US.

But size matters. Population density matters. Having a bajillion ports of entry matters. Having one airport that can close or start different kinds of screenings compared to hundreds are not even in the same conversation.

Smaller countries like yours, which I love and frequent as often as I can, are naturally better equipped for things like this. Your small hamlets have their own stores and ability to feed the hamlet. Here there are magnet big box stores that everybody has to frequent to get supplies.

The only other countries that looks like us in terms of complexity in handling this are the top tourist countries like France and Italy and the countries that are dense and have a lot of ports of entry like China and India.

Lessons from Singapore should be learned, but they should be with respect to test types, sensitivities, how the virus behaves in humidity, etc. Taking what they do from a management and scale it up 1000x is a pipe dream.

 

[sglowrider]

There is zero doubt, zero, that every country could’ve handled this better - especially the US.

But size matters. Population density matters. Having a bajillion ports of entry matters. Having one airport that can close or start different kinds of screenings compared to hundreds are not even in the same conversation.

Smaller countries like yours, which I love and frequent as often as I can, are naturally better equipped for things like this. Your small hamlets have their own stores and ability to feed the hamlet. Here there are magnet big box stores that everybody has to frequent to get supplies.

The only other countries that looks like us in terms of complexity in handling this are the top tourist countries like France and Italy and the countries that are dense and have a lot of ports of entry like China and India.

Lessons from Singapore should be learned, but they should be with respect to test types, sensitivities, how the virus behaves in humidity, etc. Taking what they do from a management and scale it up 1000x is a pipe dream.

Firstly, I respect you for the 'lifestyle' choice you made post 9/11.

But if you weren't so... to borrow a frequently used phrase here, 'emotional' and less defensive about things ie being a 'pussy' (to borrow another term from here ) -- what they have done to date, is nothing groundbreaking, just meticulous with a game plan.

From a strategic management's perspective, it was well managed -- incremental and logical.

The steps they implemented in January and February were those that any country with a pandemic multi-ministry task force could have implemented -- no silver bullet solutions but lots of baby steps and measures.

The concept of Containment was never addressed and was left to each state individually -- which is a sure sign of failure.

Everything, as a result, is looked at from a line-item perspective. 'Lock-downs' then 'tests' and now 'ventilators', next will be 'asymptomatic' -- which is what we had started facing like 3 weeks ago.

It all indicates that there was never a playbook.

My sister has an MPH from Columbia said that the plans implemented here were textbook pandemic management with a few twists and lessons learnt -- stockpiling of respirator, patient equipment and PPEs. (Lessons learnt from SARs -- 43% of the victims were healthcare workers.)

The other 50% of the containment strategy is communication/education in order to develop personal responsibility was really fecked. You need it for sustainability as this will be a series of battles in a long war. The contradicting messaging just caused further delays and had a multiplier effect of confusion, ignorance and eventually inaction on the part of communities and the state governments.

None of the things that I have mentioned are difficult to implement in the States, incrementally.

There are hundreds of baby measures. There is a hierarchy and escalatory measures according to their progressions and scenarios. Even my masking wearing suggestion (which they do in S'pore) was knocked down in this forum -- you guys had quoted the CDC saying it was 'useless', which we know has turned out not to be the case.
Each household in Singapore was given a box of masks a couple of months ago. They have just announced today that now they will give each on a reusable mask. (I mentioned stockpiles earlier? )

In fact, the US had implemented a more difficult 'lockdown' measure first. In my opinion, is quite difficult to sustain and should be used as the last resort.

What would have been interesting is having a sliding doors situation -- and what would have happened had Trump had kept the pandemic task force, people with domain knowledge folks within the WH.

Maybe more efforts would have been spent on containment strategy, which would have been the textbook approach -- instead of stumbling into preparation for mitigation.

A startup can beat global MNCs occasionally. They just have to be smart about it. But in most cases, the natural advantages are with Global MNCs. They have the structure, resources -- and trust me unless you have worked in a startup, the resources differential is MASSIVE.

It's the same scenario here. Its not an issue of size -- its an issue of political will/benevolence and a smart government that learns from past mistakes. A can-do spirit rather than pushing responsibilities off. Its been done before -- post 9/11 and should have been done again in January 2020.

And in Singapore or Hong Kong's respective cases -- they both have ZERO natural resources other than humans and strategic positioning. And yet it thrives. It's not the size that matters, but what you do with it that makes it effective.

 

[T.M.P.]

I have no clue what that has to do with much of anything I was talking about.... which was the need for accurate medical data to coordinate a global policy response.

But I get it..... any critique of China on this board gets a chorus of but "TRUMP!"..... as if you can't say mean things about China without it being implied you are just a Trump sycophant enamored with "shiny things".....

Any critique of China at this time should also include a critique on Trump.

The reason you're getting that chorus is because Trump is trying to find anyone to blame for his lack of competence and by making that post without mentioning how much worse the problem is because of Trump - even though your premise is correct and intent pure - helps solidify the thought (blame someone else other than Trump) in the small vindictive minds of the Orange Cult.

Don't feed the dumb .. or do so responsibly.

One simple sentence adding Trump to the liars club would have went a long way in stopping us pointing to the reigning king of liars .... Since you didn't, you put that responsibility on us and then complain....

So ..

I'm sure Xi and the PRC lies and they deserve a brunt of the blame but it's what totalitarian leaders and nations do and have done since the dawn of time. This post was a water is wet moment for all those who knew what was going on months ago. I doubt he (they) are near as dishonest, stupid. inept and incompetent as our leader is.

 

[outside shooter]

...Fauci publicly often said Trump followed all the TF recommendations...They called the shots.

Fauci walks a tightrope and is careful to keep his job, but there is plenty of evidence that it takes a ton of arm twisting to get Trump to even listen to the task force and to Fauci.

An example just from last night, Fauci was being interviewed on (I think it was) Fox news. Fauci was asked bluntly if a nationwide stay-at-home order would make sense. He said (paraphrasing) that it makes perfect sense and that in his opinion it should be implemented immediately.

If Lord Trump is letting the task force call the shots, then that remark makes no sense at all.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Firstly, I respect you for the 'lifestyle' choice you made post 9/11.

But if you weren't so... to borrow a frequently used phrase here, 'emotional' and less defensive about things ie being a 'pussy' (to borrow another term from here ) -- what they have done to date, is nothing groundbreaking, just meticulous with a game plan.

From a strategic management's perspective, it was well managed -- incremental and logical.

The steps they implemented in January and February were those that any country with a pandemic multi-ministry task force could have implemented -- no silver bullet solutions but lots of baby steps and measures.

The concept of Containment was never addressed and was left to each state individually -- which is a sure sign of failure.

Everything, as a result, is looked at from a line-item perspective. 'Lock-downs' then 'tests' and now 'ventilators', next will be 'asymptomatic' -- which is what we had started facing like 3 weeks ago.

It all indicates that there was never a playbook.

My sister has an MPH from Columbia said that the plans implemented here were textbook pandemic management with a few twists and lessons learnt -- stockpiling of respirator, patient equipment and PPEs. (Lessons learnt from SARs -- 43% of the victims were healthcare workers.)

The other 50% of the containment strategy is communication/education in order to develop personal responsibility was really fecked. You need it for sustainability as this will be a series of battles in a long war. The contradicting messaging just caused further delays and had a multiplier effect of confusion, ignorance and eventually inaction on the part of communities and the state governments.

None of the things that I have mentioned are difficult to implement in the States, incrementally.

There are hundreds of baby measures. There is a hierarchy and escalatory measures according to their progressions and scenarios. Even my masking wearing suggestion (which they do in S'pore) was knocked down in this forum -- you guys had quoted the CDC saying it was 'useless', which we know has turned out not to be the case.
Each household in Singapore was given a box of masks a couple of months ago. They have just announced today that now they will give each on a reusable mask. (I mentioned stockpiles earlier? )

In fact, the US had implemented a more difficult 'lockdown' measure first. In my opinion, is quite difficult to sustain and should be used as the last resort.

What would have been interesting is having a sliding doors situation -- and what would have happened had Trump had kept the pandemic task force, people with domain knowledge folks within the WH.

Maybe more efforts would have been spent on containment strategy, which would have been the textbook approach -- instead of stumbling into preparation for mitigation.

A startup can beat global MNCs occasionally. They just have to be smart about it. But in most cases, the natural advantages are with Global MNCs. They have the structure, resources -- and trust me unless you have worked in a startup, the resources differential is MASSIVE.

It's the same scenario here. Its not an issue of size -- its an issue of political will/benevolence and a smart government that learns from past mistakes. A can-do spirit rather than pushing responsibilities off. Its been done before -- post 9/11 and should have been done again in January 2020.

And in Singapore or Hong Kong's respective cases -- they both have ZERO natural resources other than humans and strategic positioning. And yet it thrives. It's not the size that matters, but what you do with it that makes it effective.

Dude I don’t know what to tell you. You’re not listening to me and maybe I’m not listening to you.

The US is vastly different than HK and SG both in terms of size, type of government, and fragmentation. Our country is large and fragmented in terms of population, politics, and resources. You’re talking about two of the smallest and centrally organized countries in the world. Why can you not see that it’s easier for a central government in countries the size of a city to be able to respond quickly and centrally? Why do you insist on forgetting that the US is a state-driven republic and we have chosen that way of life for hundreds of years and though this event exposes that system as a weakness, it’s overall been quite good for the country to operate this way?

The only comparable nation to the US in terms of what they have as a problem is China, except they operate more centrally than does the US. The problem is, China is willing to weld people into homes to die and to lie to the world about reality and to prevent their people from telling the world the truth over the internet and we are not willing to do that.

I’m not excusing our government’s gaffes - stop making it seem like I am. I’m saying that your examples are nearly completely irrelevant and resort to nothing but sniping from an ivory tower. A teeny tiny little ivory tower.

And please don’t disclaim your posts with admiration for my service. While well-founded, it’s not how I’d like you to view my posts. I’ve travelled all over for business far further than I did in the military and my lens has been informed by those travels, not from kicking in doors in a medieval country.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

plenty of evidence that it takes a ton of arm twisting to get Trump to even listen to the task force and to Fauci.

Fauci has said thins like "Trump is Trump," "he asks a ton of questions," "he understands what we tell him," and "he has always followed our recommendations". That doesn't sound like a ton of arm twisting to me. I've previously linked the interview where he said all of this.

 

[outside shooter]

Fauci has said thins like "Trump is Trump," "he asks a ton of questions," "he understands what we tell him," and "he has always followed our recommendations". That doesn't sound like a ton of arm twisting to me. I've previously linked the interview where he said all of this.

LOL, you are being willfully dense. I am glad that Fauci is kissing butt just enough to keep his job, because he does have SOME influence over his dullard boss, over time. If Fauci didn't dole out some praise, the tangerine one would probably replace him with Ivanka.

 

[hoot1]

Fauci has said thins like "Trump is Trump," "he asks a ton of questions," "he understands what we tell him," and "he has always followed our recommendations". That doesn't sound like a ton of arm twisting to me. I've previously linked the interview where he said all of this.

Fauci has to be supportive of the team manager in order to stay in the lineup to help us through this crisis.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Fauci has to be supportive of the team manager in order to stay in the lineup to help us through this crisis.

Let us add a new development, yesterday Fauci spoke in favor of a nationwide lockdown.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Fauci has to be supportive of the team manager in order to stay in the lineup to help us through this crisis.

I never got the impression that Fauci is a brownnose. Actually quite the opposite.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Let us add a new development, yesterday Fauci spoke in favor of a nationwide lockdown.

Wasn't Fauci speaking to the governors? The legal infrastructure to allow Trump to do this would be significant. When Ike called out the 101st Airborne to intigrate the Little Rock schools, he at least had a court order in this pocket. Trump doesn't have a court order. I haven't researched how the imposition of national marshall law would work, but I don't think we need to go there.

 

[Zizkov]

There is zero doubt, zero, that every country could’ve handled this better - especially the US.

But size matters. Population density matters. Having a bajillion ports of entry matters. Having one airport that can close or start different kinds of screenings compared to hundreds are not even in the same conversation.

Smaller countries like yours, which I love and frequent as often as I can, are naturally better equipped for things like this. Your small hamlets have their own stores and ability to feed the hamlet. Here there are magnet big box stores that everybody has to frequent to get supplies.

The only other countries that looks like us in terms of complexity in handling this are the top tourist countries like France and Italy and the countries that are dense and have a lot of ports of entry like China and India.

Lessons from Singapore should be learned, but they should be with respect to test types, sensitivities, how the virus behaves in humidity, etc. Taking what they do from a management and scale it up 1000x is a pipe dream.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but population density is one of the reasons that I thought the US had a chance at limiting this.

North America has significantly less population density then Asia, Europe or Africa.

The Trump admin has completely botched the response. No western country had more time to prepare and more resources to do so and were considered more prepared than the US.

I believe at the end of this no country is going to end up with worse results than the US. Even worse than Italy and Spain. It's still a complete mess and now you have Squeaky Kushner involved.

I am happy my brother who checks off a lot of the high risk categories lives in the stick and is fairly self sufficient because the gov is not doing much to help.

That said, I do get what you are saying and don't disagree. We shut our borders early as tourism is hug and we are kind of the crossroads of Europe.

Editing to add this:

This is what social distancing looks like. I am shocked when I see some shots of US towns with tons of people milling around:

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Wasn't Fauci speaking to the governors? The legal infrastructure to allow Trump to do this would be significant. When Ike called out the 101st Airborne to intigrate the Little Rock schools, he at least had a court order in this pocket. Trump doesn't have a court order. I haven't researched how the imposition of national marshall law would work, but I don't think we need to go there.

I do not know what the legality of it is, which is why I am not saying we need a nationwide lockdown. At some point the experts will weigh in if it is legal. Here you can find more about Fauci's wording


https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/83C3A3D8-7549-11EA-B271-BA6B5B5F42B8

 

[CO. Hoosier]

North America has significantly less population density then Asia, Europe or Africa.

The population is highly clustered. Overall density is totally irrelevant.

The Trump admin has completely botched the response. No western country had more time to prepare and more resources to do so and were considered more prepared than the US.

I believe at the end of this no country is going to end up with worse results than the US. Even worse than Italy and Spain. It's still a complete mess and now you have Squeaky Kushner involved.

NYC is the bulk of the US cases and deaths. I don't think NYC's share of the problem will decrease. There were factors at work there that POTUS had absolutely no control over.

That said, I do get what you are saying and don't disagree. We shut our borders early as tourism is hug and we are kind of the crossroads of Europe.

NYC probably has more international travelers in a day than your country has in months.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but population density is one of the reasons that I thought the US had a chance at limiting this.

North America has significantly less population density then Asia, Europe or Africa.

The Trump admin has completely botched the response. No western country had more time to prepare and more resources to do so and were considered more prepared than the US.

I believe at the end of this no country is going to end up with worse results than the US. Even worse than Italy and Spain. It's still a complete mess and now you have Squeaky Kushner involved.

I am happy my brother who checks off a lot of the high risk categories lives in the stick and is fairly self sufficient because the gov is not doing much to help.

That said, I do get what you are saying and don't disagree. We shut our borders early as tourism is hug and we are kind of the crossroads of Europe.

Editing to add this:

This is what social distancing looks like. I am shocked when I see some shots of US towns with tons of people milling around:

View embedded media

You’re seeing one-off instances when you see large gatherings. For the most part, our cities are ghost towns.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

LOL, you are being willfully dense. I am glad that Fauci is kissing butt just enough to keep his job, because he does have SOME influence over his dullard boss, over time. If Fauci didn't dole out some praise, the tangerine one would probably replace him with Ivanka.

The subtext of your point is that for a smart guy like Fauci to say anything favorable about a POS like Trump, Fauci must be ass-kissing. I don't buy it. I think it's pretty clear Fauci says what he means.

 

[outside shooter]

I think it's pretty clear Fauci says what he means.

I agree that Fauci says what he means, while he is also adding a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. It's what you do with willful, tempermental toddlers.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I agree that Fauci says what he means, while he is also adding a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. It's what you do with willful, tempermental toddlers.

I don't picture Fauci getting around on a flying umbrella.

Maybe you are confused with Pelosi on her broom.

 

[iuwclurker]

I also find you way of thinking on this a bit flawed.

Size doesn't matter in a lot of ways (TWSS) with regards to this situation. We are small too, but that's not the reason are situation is much better than the US. Not even close.

We had consistent messaging and preparation. We were told the situation clearly, what to expect and what might need to be done to handle it.

We started getting the supplies we needed (PPE, vent), we quarantined early, required masks early and have been well informed. None of this has to do with size.

Has everything been perfect? Of course not. Everything country, policy, person (except Jessica Alba) remedy is flawed, but there are countries that approached it with clear concise accurate information and that is a far bigger indicator of success than size.

Nobody was going to stop this thing from spreading,but the US has had one of the worst responses in the world and it's going to cost 10,000s of lives.

Our early action has flattened the curve to the point of being able to help supply Italy and Spain with much needed PPE. We had very little run on supermarkets/toilet paper (WTF?) after the first couple days because we were clearly told what preparations were being done and understood supply line would be open and there was no need.

The inconsistent and at times blatantly inaccurate information coming from the WH has exacerbated an already difficult situation. This has nothing to do with size or having a homogeneous population (still never understood this argument), it's all about clear messaging and good preparation.

Even with all this, cases are rising (we are currently at 3,538 cases and 39 dead) and expect to reach almost 15,000 by mid May. It's an incredibly difficult situation that even with good planning is hard to control.

Many of the things that sglowrider has been criticized for saying the US should be doing have been echoed by Dr Fauci. Yes, the US is much bigger and also has far greater resources than every other country.

Lack of clear, concise messaging/information and preparation are by far the biggest problems the US has had. Just last year the US was rated the most prepared country for an epidemic in the world:

https://www.statista.com/chart/20629/ability-to-respond-to-an-epidemic-or-pandemic/

I get that some of the measures taken by countries like Singapore would be far more difficult in the US, but that's a small issue compared to the simple things that could have been done to help.

There's nothing that can be done about that now, but there are still states allowing too much free movement with everything we know now. The fact that Florida just shutdown is downright criminal.

I realize that I am probably pissing in the wind, but some of the stuff I still reads shocks me.

This isn't meant as a shot at you, I find you quite thoughtful and reasonable, even if I disagree with you.

EDITED to properly spell sglowrider.

Plus, the Czech Republic is within the densely populated European Union. How is it any different from Louisiana or Ohio?

The potshots taken at sglowrider are gutter-feeding dreck reflecting only on the messenger. If anything, he has blessed the WC with early info most Americans weren’t privy to. Clued-in readers could have killed on the stock market based on his forewarnings ...

 

[UncleMark]

I’ve travelled all over for business far further than I did in the military and my lens has been informed by those travels, not from kicking in doors in a medieval country.

Just as an aside and FWIW, that's one thing I think I appreciate about you the most. That "kicking in [of] doors" in Iraq is what most people lead with if they have the opportunity. Nothing wrong with that, but it's wielded as if it's relevant when in most cases it doesn't matter one whit.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Another day, another lie from the Chinese. It’s pathetic.